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Thread: Inner forestay question

  1. #1
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    Default Inner forestay question

    Good afternoon , I am adding in Inner forestay to my rigging. Already have opposing running backstays. I am using a club footed jib and a hyfield lever. My question is how do I attach a boom? I cannot fit a pedestal, which would also have to be detached when using the genny.. My hyfield has a long shaft on the top. Thought about adding a gooseneck slide to the shaft. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    More details please
    What type of boat?
    I presume you are talking about a spinnaker boom?

    Why are you fitting the inner forestay?
    Is it because you want to use a staysail (inner jib) and convert your boat to a cutter rig?
    Or is it that you want to stop any pumping of your mast when sailing?

    We only used an inner stay to stop pumping of the mast, sailing hard on to the wind in a steep sea was worst.
    Most yacht designers design their rigs to be secure without adding extras. So we need to go back and ask why.

    You should be able to carry and use a spinnaker boom with an inner stay rigged.
    It means extra work shifting the boom when you gybe the spinnaker but it can be done.
    The other option is to fit a bowsprit or a retractable prod and switch to using a gennaker of the bowsprit/prod, so no boom required.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    My understanding is that it'd be for a staysail club.

    I don't have a good answer, but will be watching to see what's suggested.

    However - why no pedestal? You usually want the club attached aft of the stay so the sail is flatter when hauled in & looser when let out. And the staysail can be furled onto the club & disconnected from the stay for when you fly the genny.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    It is for a staysail. It was partially rigged for it when I got the boat, but had to be jury rigged with shackle to function. Someone never got around to finishing it. I have a very solid fitting on the bowsprit for attaching the lever. Adding a pedestal, however, I would have to disconnect it from two points to pull it out of the way. Plus the sampson post may interfere. The traveller,blocks and sheets are already functional.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    We built a series of 35' cutters (in aluminum alloy) and the staysail boom was on a gooseneck on the forestay itself. It was very simple – of two halves with a half hole in each clamped around the forestay - the diameter of the hole was sufficient so that the fitting could rotate freely on the stay – in fact it had a Delrin sleeve in it so that it wouldn't wear the stay. The staysail boom had jaws which slipped over the aft part of the fitting and rotated up and down on a horizontal bolt.

    With this type of staysail boom you need a jackline luff on the staysail, otherwise the geometry prevents it lowering fully – the jackline is hanked to the forestay and the staysail is hanked to the jackline.

    You need a downhaul - or tack pennant – on the gooseneck to tack the gooseneck fitting down.

    I didn't really like the arrangement - but in fact it performed flawlessly – the boats have had numerous Atlantic crossing to their credit, and many other long trips as well as usual weekend and holiday sailing.

    I have to say I really like a self-tacking staysail – maybe not entirely the most efficient sail, but short-handed tacking up a river, or under heavy conditions out at sea, they take a lot of beating.

    Cheers -- George
    To be truly free to live, one must be free to think and speak.

    A C Grayling

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    That's kind of how I jury rigged it. Using a shackle as a gooseneck and a downhaul. My concern there was wear and tear on the stay. I like your gooseneck better. I wonder if I could, or need to incorporate some kind of bushing?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    See the link for Chuck Paine's Brownhorse 31 and the photos for the staysail stay attachment to the heel of the bowsprit and associated solid vang: https://www.chuckpaine.com/customprojects.html
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    Nice link. But tacking with just a large genny might be difficult. I would need it to be detachable. It is ideal for their setup. Might be adaptable to a hyfield to a point.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    One of the magical aspects of a pedestal is a nice flat staysail to windward and one with progressively deeper camber as you ease sheets.
    I used a ball slash pin type spinnaker pole fitting so it unclipped really easily. No work at all in fact.
    A club on the forestay will swing in in the light more so than on a pedestal too, not to mention the lever arm it imposes on the stay right by a terminal,and the added height of the tack.
    Last edited by John B; 10-09-2017 at 11:58 PM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    Quote Originally Posted by mariner2k View Post
    That's kind of how I jury rigged it. Using a shackle as a gooseneck and a downhaul. My concern there was wear and tear on the stay. I like your gooseneck better. I wonder if I could, or need to incorporate some kind of bushing?
    On the Selestra 35's the fitting was about 120mm high (up and down the stay) and had a Delrin bushing. Because it's not a club boom – i.e. the boom is the full length of the staysail foot – the forward load on the forestay is not that great, especially if the sheet leads directly downwards or slightly aft when close hauled.

    As I said, I didn't originally like the idea too much – because of possible forestay wear and more importantly fatigue on the wire with the fitting right on top of the termination. But in fact both fears proved to be groundless over years of operation.

    I think a bushing would be wise – something like Delrin is ideal and easy to machine. As far as I remember the Selestra had a bushing with a flange top and bottom, which was threaded on the forestay wire before the termination was fitted, and the two halves of the fitting were clamped around it – but it should be perfectly possible to make a split bushing. The bushing was a good fit on the wire so it rotated easily but didn't flop about.

    Cheers -- George
    To be truly free to live, one must be free to think and speak.

    A C Grayling

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    I may take another look at a pedestal. But if that isn't a go, I'd Be happy with what was done on the Selestra.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    A clubbed forestaysail will certainly set better through a range of sailing angles from beam reach to on the wind if the pivot to the club is set a bit abaft the pivot point of the sail's tack. Basically, that allows the sail to get a bit fuller as you ease the sheet. However, you will mostly use the forestaysail on the wind, maybe to a beam reach. Further off than that and the forestaysail wants to gybe back and forth making the foredeck a killing zone.

    So how much does it actually matter?

    On Goblin I found that it did not matter much. Besides the clubbed forestaysail she also had a boomed mainstaysail. If I was going to be on a reach for a while, it was worth a stroll forward to ease the foot. For going to weather, tighten up a bit. Whether you go loosefooted or tracked to the boom (Goblin's fore staysail was loose while the main staysail was on a track to its boom) the adjustment is the same.

    You will want to design or put together the fitting that takes the club with toggles both above and below so the movement and thrust of the club does not weaken the stay where it meets its terminal.

    G'luck

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    Thanks Ian, I knew you'd be here.
    Port Townsend had a nice example of a gooseneck on a turnbuckle. Something like that would do very well on a Highfield.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    I do this on my big boat...big clunky T spar ,wood jaws,bolt through the bottle screw. Not high performance. Sail comes down off the wind.

    and this on my wee boat. Laminated half wishbone.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    I do this on my big boat...big clunky T spar ,wood jaws,bolt through the bottle screw. Not high performance. Sail comes down off the wind.
    If you set it on a jackstay up to the LP it would come down on the wind too

    Cheers -- George
    To be truly free to live, one must be free to think and speak.

    A C Grayling

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    Re: the pedestal. We used to have a clubbed staysail on a cutter. The stay remained rigged, and it was easy to tack with the outboard job sliding through the slot. The boom was on a pedestal that was a short post. A pin on the end of the boom dropped into the post. This allowed the boom to be easily taken out of the pedestal and shifted back to the a fitting on the mast, where the boom acted like a jib strut with the inner staysail poled out downwind.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    Quote Originally Posted by debenriver View Post
    If you set it on a jackstay up to the LP it would come down on the wind too

    Cheers -- George
    What's "LP"?
    It is on a jack line.
    oh , googled LP. Isn't that how I have it on the wee boat?
    did i miss a funny?
    Last edited by wizbang 13; 10-10-2017 at 12:25 PM.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    On both Goblin and Granuaile, the normal working jibs (maybe 80% of J) tacked easily enough sliding past the forestaysail stay but the bigger jibs (120%+ of J) really needed to be partly rolled to get around without hanging up. You also must take care how the jib sheets are attached. If, like me, you use bowlines, tie them opposite each other such that the tail of each (coming out sailor style inside the loop) is facing the other sheet. That way the bowlines present less to hang up on the forestay.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    What's "LP"?
    It is on a jack line.
    oh , googled LP. Isn't that how I have it on the wee boat?
    did i miss a funny?
    I assumed because you said it would come down off the wind, you meant that it wouldn't come down when close hauled ... which a jack line fixes. Shouldn't make assumptions should I!!

    LP is the perpendicular from the luff to the clew – the jack line generally has to up to that point in order for a boom staysail to lower.

    I couldn't really see from the photos.

    Cheers -- George
    To be truly free to live, one must be free to think and speak.

    A C Grayling

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    Our staysail on Mimi Rose is on a nice solid pedestal mounted on the bowsprit itself, between the gammon iron and the sampson posts. Gives it a fairly good shape for most points of sail, however, the boom also has an outhaul track adjustment which I find essential to get the most out of her cutter rig. A post seems worth considering as does Brion Toss' boomless dual sheet arrangement. If you do go without a post, I'd imagine that an outhaul track or similar fitting would be even more useful to control sail shape. Lest anyone think I'm talking about racing here, I'm not. The staysail stays up in all weather on our boat and it's trim frequently effects heel angle and the overall power we can bring to bear when beating into a head sea. Too much camber and it's left luffing and/or backwinding the main. When it weather lightens up or you come off the wind, bellying out the sail can add quite a bit of speed.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    Quote Originally Posted by mariner2k View Post
    I am using a club footed jib and a hyfield lever.... Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.
    Do you already have the club footed sail? FWIW the Pardey's weighed the pluses and minuses of a club and went with no club and two sheets on their boats. Keeps the foredeck clearer, but not quite as simple to tack, of course. Don't know your boat but now you can have tracks (or 'old-style travellers') for jibs without clubs that mimic the self tacking simplicity.
    Last edited by rbgarr; 10-10-2017 at 08:00 PM.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    Yes and I had one on my old ketch. I'm very fond of them.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    Regarding a club footed inner staysail, I found that it's a little bit easier for the single-handed Sailor. And by the way,
    You can't have a boat full of people and still be sailing single-handed...

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    Quote Originally Posted by mariner2k View Post
    Regarding a club footed inner staysail, I found that it's a little bit easier for the single-handed Sailor. And by the way,
    You can't have a boat full of people and still be sailing single-handed...
    Really? I've had some people out where I was effectively sailing single-handed. They haven't been invited back
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Really? I've had some people out where I was effectively sailing single-handed. They haven't been invited back
    Worse than that: on a passage still 200 Miles to go, very lively conditions, and my hydraulic ram broke. It was only minutes till I had the emergency tiller out and installed while my "passenger", a 2 m guy, got hysterical. For some reason I managed to calm him down once back in the cockpit, short after he looked at it "I'm not gonna touch this!" (not that he had done something on the whole trip anyway apart from asking for 3 meals a day). The whole thing came down to me hand-steering the remaining 200 Miles and I broke up my 8.5 year relationship the moment we reached the shore.
    Last edited by Dody; 10-11-2017 at 04:42 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    Wow - not a fun trip Dody! Tough times do show a person't true colors though - don't they?

    My first long tip with my partner (and her first multi-day trip on a boat ever) showed her colors: we had fog so thick that I literally could not see the bow sometimes. No radar either, as some lazy boat electrical person (aka me) hadn't hooked it up yet.

    When we got close to where I though land would be, I asked her to go up to the bow & listen for surf: "Yell out if you hear surf!". She looked at me with eyes a bit wider than normal, but went right up to the bow & started listening. 5 or 10 minutes later she yelled "Surf's up!" & I hung a hard right to parallel the shore. She then guided us: "We're closer. Now farther" etc. a couple of miles until we got to the channel - where things cleared up enough to see out way into the anchorage. When we got the mooring tied on she turned to me with a big grin, high-fived me & said "That was exciting!".

    That made me realize I had good crew.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Wow - not a fun trip Dody! Tough times do show a person't true colors though - don't they?

    My first long tip with my partner (and her first multi-day trip on a boat ever) showed her colors: we had fog so thick that I literally could not see the bow sometimes. No radar either, as some lazy boat electrical person (aka me) hadn't hooked it up yet.

    When we got close to where I though land would be, I asked her to go up to the bow & listen for surf: "Yell out if you hear surf!". She looked at me with eyes a bit wider than normal, but went right up to the bow & started listening. 5 or 10 minutes later she yelled "Surf's up!" & I hung a hard right to parallel the shore. She then guided us: "We're closer. Now farther" etc. a couple of miles until we got to the channel - where things cleared up enough to see out way into the anchorage. When we got the mooring tied on she turned to me with a big grin, high-fived me & said "That was exciting!".

    That made me realize I had good crew.
    Awesome Garret, lovely experience and great to hear you've found one of these rare jewels!

    Yes, lol, they do!!! For me, when my boat is ready for the splash again, I promised my fisherman-friends a sail to some islands not far from here. But, I've been out fishing with them on their boats and they are proper seaman. Also, my nephew wants to join me in Patagonia and the two of us can work together fine. Apart from that I've got enough for a lifetime!
    Last edited by Dody; 10-11-2017 at 04:44 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Inner forestay question

    Yep, single handing is more work with passengers . I do love how easily by staysail looks after itself. Heck, it even jibes somewhat peacefully in a hat full of wind. As long as you're not in its way.

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