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Thread: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

  1. #1

    Default Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    Or maybe there's a different design out there. We're looking at 16' or a bit less with these designs. This boat will be build in cedar strip/epoxy.

    The co-builder/owner is a great big Samsquatch. He's 2 meters tall, and weighs 19 stone. The crew will vary from single hand, to a couple young monkeys fishing, and sometimes Mrs Samsquatch who isn't small either. None of them have sailed before. The boat will likely be used 50% of the time sailing/motoring on big Western US reservoirs where chop is short, and wakeboard boats usually provide the biggest waves. The other half of this boat's life will be spent running up and down a big flat river. The sail rig will be left at home on river days. A big deep cycle battery or two will live up in the bow.

    Now the questions:

    First, do these boats plane well enough under outboard power to make half decent river boats?

    Second, set up with a loose-footed lug yawl rig, are these boats tame enough for cautious beginner sailors? Samsquatches don't like swimming.

    Lastly, how much hp does it take to reasonably plane one of these boats with a load, and how much HP can they actually carry?

    Please, share your experiences.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    Nobody, huh.... Figures. Now that the SAO zealots have prevailed, talk of outboards on the back of small wood boats is probably considered heresy around here. I get it, nobody wants to be an apostate in public.

    For future reference, the Squatch did some e-mailing back and forth with the guy who sells catalogs for the designer. He's concluded that these designs just aren't suited to running up a river when carrying much of a load. One or two normal sized humans, sure, throw a little outboard on the back and plane away; fill the boat with 2 or 3 big Squatches and some gear, and you've got to throw some bigger HP at the problem to get there. He was told maybe it'd go with 35+hp. I'm thinking the big guy needs to resign himself to the idea of 2 boats, or settle for fast displacement speed if he wants to avoid big heavy motors that guzzle fuel. It's really a shame that freighter canoes aren't designed to sail well.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    1. I think it will need to be a Fulmar for the boat space with 3 big people and gear.

    2. You'll have to move the mast back on the gaff yawl plan for a lug yawl, but leave the sail planform where it is.

    3. I'd be guessing as to exactly what HP you'd need, so I'd ask Iain what he knows.

    Here is a video on You tube of someone using a Fulmar as a launch. You might be able to contact them to see what hp/ performance they looked for, but it at least shows you the space.


  4. #4

    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Here is a video on You tube of someone using a Fulmar as a launch.
    Thanks for chiming in, Ed. That's one vote for Fulmar. At 16', the Fulmar is closer to the desired size. That said, the difference in beam is only 2" if I remember right. Stretch one, shrink the other...

    I've seen that video. Unfortunately, they quit filming right when I expected him to open the throttle and put the boat on plane leaving the dock. As shown, I'm pretty sure that didn't happen.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    They built a Gannet in strip plank at Lyme Boatbuilding College...

    http://www.boatbuildingacademy.com/b...ailing-dinghy/





    For always planing regularly, hard chine is actually more efficient at that froude number...the B&B Core Sound series may be worth a look too. The kits would also save on labour also.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 10-13-2017 at 11:19 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    That's just purdy. No other words for it. B&B drew the Lapwing. That one's definitely in the running for displacement hulls.

    When you start talking about hard chines, it makes me remember that there are always jet sleds. Those things can run up river like nothing else. They don't sail worth a darn though...This is about finding one boat that can do the job of two boats under low HP.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    Arthur, this is one of the biggest challenges of boat designers, have a boat that goes really well under sail and performs like a rocket with an outboard.
    I had a Hartley 16 and we used 5 hp on the back, okay at displacement speeds but just dug a big hole for the boat when wide open throttle.
    Sailed really well with weight forward and a good breeze, but it was never a motor boat.
    You are planning on carrying 2 deep cycle batteries, so are you intending to use an electric outboard? Which means you maybe planning to cruise at displacement speeds and not as a rocket ship.

    First, do these boats plane well enough under outboard power to make half decent river boats?
    I think you will be disappointed with the performance of these sailing hulls under power......put the outboard in the back and you are sitting there, stern down bow up...
    Sailing you will have your weight forward, most likely where it should be in the centre of the boat.
    What I would do if I was you, built a 15' Jericho Lobster skiff with 20hp outboard for the river cruising. Perfect size, designed for planing speeds.
    Carries a good load (more than a sail boat). Strip plank construction.

    Second, set up with a loose-footed lug yawl rig, are these boats tame enough for cautious beginner sailors? Samsquatches don't like swimming.
    Obviously you are learner sailor, so get some sailing lessons and learn how to swim - both sailboats are likely to capsize whatever rig.
    But both boats can be righted by their crews, if they can swim.....so swimming is very important.

    A centre board sail boat will capsize whatever the rig.....so changing the rig will make no difference.
    I would not sail those yachts with 2 heavy deep cycle batteries up in the bow... I would leave that weight at home as it will adversely affect sailing trim.
    If you do not want to capsize ever you need a keel boat.
    Both boats are designed to sail well with the designer specified rig, so stick to it.

    My suggestion is build both, then you will work out which one will be best suited for your family.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    We have a Fulmar. Our Honda 2.3 hp outboard rarely gets taken along. It has enough power for our needs, however it will not bring the boat up on a plane. The Fulmar lacks directional stability under power without dropping the centerboard a bit. This boat is an exciting sailing dingy. You really have to react pretty quickly to wind shifts in speed and direction. This is not a boat that you're going to step to the gunwale from the dock. I agree with Don that something like the Jericho skiff would be a more practical fishing boat. My son and I built a Devlin Candlefish 16 and power it with a 15 hp motor. It's very stable and planes easily.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    Ed, Don, bheys,

    Thank you all for your input. The Jerecho skiff looks nice, but truth be told, I'd go the freighter canoe route if I settled for a pure motor boat. Nothing runs up river with low HP motors like they do. The batteries come in the mix for a trolling motor, fish finder, nav lights, and fog lights for pre-dawn runs during duck season.

    This quest started with the idea that maybe before spending all the time, money, and materials building a big freighter, I should build a little sailboat for building practice, and to learn how to sail. It didn't take long to realize that a small boat would just be uncomfortable, and then get left at home. Anything worth building and sailing will be just as big of a project as a freighter. So, we might as well find the best compromise boat. The squatch's leading designs are now the B&B Lapwing, and a slippery little hull by Paul Fisher called the Oxford Skiff. The latter is barely wider than a big canoe, and only carries 90sf of sail. The lapwing is almost a foot wider, and the ketch would be ditched for a lug-yawl. Neither are planing hulls, but they look fast enough to go upriver slowly.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    Oughtred's planing dinghies are shaped more like pre-Avanger International 14s than like really efficient planing dinghies. You might looks at the Uffa Fox Lively design, available from Woodenboat Magazine, if you want something that will plane under power.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=Ma...%20fox&f=false

    http://www.woodenboatstore.com/produ...aysailer_plans

    But if you're not an experienced sailor, you might want to cut the rig down a bit.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    Hey Doc, I'm just finishing up details on a lug yawl Fulmar (search Oughtred Fulmar Build). Hopefully in two weeks we will launch but for now all I can comment on is building.

    I appreciate your approach but I think with your wish list something will have to give. Planing dinghies like the Fulmar plane further forward on their hull near their propulsion (sail) and an outboard throws off the balance. Anything larger than maybe a 3hp will just dig a hole in the water. For what it's worth, the original Lapwing was designed for a friend of Mr. Byrnes who liked the Fulmar but wanted a cat ketch rig instead. The way it was described to me the whole point was to put the cat ketch rig on a similar hull. I found building the lapstrake hull to be a natural next step after a stitch & glue kayak and two strip kayaks. I'm not one to limit other people's abilities but I work with wood professionally and I'm glad I didn't jump right in with a lapstrake hull. If you're still interested in the Fulmar Mr. Oughtred includes sail plans for a high peaked gaff with a jib as well as lug yawl and gaff yawls plans.

    I think your big 'ol freighter idea sounds cool. My 2 cents would be build the strip freighter and a goat island skiff and learn to sail. You could share a trailer between the two with a little creativity, the Goat would be a quick, cheap build and is a known performer with several sail plans.

    Hope this helps and good luck.

    Mike

  12. #12

    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    Interesting suggestions, Guys. I'm really getting the impression that nobody thinks there's any one boat can both sail and run up-river well.

    The Uffa Fox boat is probably a bit much to tackle for a first build. Also, it weighs twice as much as these other designs...

    I look forward to seeing your launch day, Mike. Truth be told, I've thought plenty about quick and easy plywood sailboats. Trouble is marine plywood is either 4 hours away, and overpriced, or 7 hours away, and still expensive. Of course there's always mail order, and freight. Then I see most of these little S&G plywood designs are calling for glass and epoxy at least for the outside of the hull. So I figure that I might as well just keep stockpiling cedar, and I'll save the big order of goo and glass cloth for a strip boat instead of ply.

    Who knows, maybe I'll settle on a pretty little double ender like a peapod, and a tin river skiff... we'll see.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Arthur Trollingson View Post
    Interesting suggestions, Guys. I'm really getting the impression that nobody thinks there's any one boat can both sail and run up-river well.

    The Uffa Fox boat is probably a bit much to tackle for a first build. Also, it weighs twice as much as these other designs...

    I look forward to seeing your launch day, Mike. Truth be told, I've thought plenty about quick and easy plywood sailboats. Trouble is marine plywood is either 4 hours away, and overpriced, or 7 hours away, and still expensive. Of course there's always mail order, and freight. Then I see most of these little S&G plywood designs are calling for glass and epoxy at least for the outside of the hull. So I figure that I might as well just keep stockpiling cedar, and I'll save the big order of goo and glass cloth for a strip boat instead of ply.

    Who knows, maybe I'll settle on a pretty little double ender like a peapod, and a tin river skiff... we'll see.
    As to weight, I think the difference is that the Lively includes the weight of a three-man crew. But I can understand why the build might be intimidating.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    As to weight, I think the difference is that the Lively includes the weight of a three-man crew. But I can understand why the build might be intimidating.
    Oh... He was using old math. 8+8+8+8+8+7-4-4-4-4 gives a way different result. Makes perfect sense now.


    Thanks to your guys' advice; I think I've got the Squatch convinced that he can buy a tin boat for the river any time he wants, so he should focus on a small sailboat. He's dead set on building something. The shop is too empty right now, and he wants to have a half-finished boat in it by springtime. The building space is big enough to barely work around a 18-19' boat, placed corner to corner. 16+/- would be more comfortable. A rolling strongback will probably help.

    Again, plywood is out. Cedar strip is the way forward. A transom is desirable, but that preference could change.

    Leading plan contenders are:

    Oxford Skiff - Selway Fisher (it's narrow, but doesn't carry much sail)

    Lapwing - B+B (Designer has OK'd strip construction, and conversion to Yawl)

    Gartside #147 (It's pretty enough to forget that it doesn't have a transom)

    Stornoway 14/16 - Selway Fisher (would prefer less plywood)


    All comments and suggestions are welcome. Bonus points if the suggested plans work well with a cheap pre-made sail, like the Goat Island Lug sail from RSS, or another easy option.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    Doc,

    The boat in the video is mine. I also started with the hope of planing both under sail and power. I was (gently) disabused of this notion by those on this forum, who pointed out that the center of effort under sail is high up and forward, as opposed to low and aft under power. As a result, without a straight run aft, boats, including Fulmar, will plane under sail but not power.

    The motor I use is 6 hp., and will move the boat along nicely, but it won't plane.

    I'm embarrassed to say that I have not yet finished the sailing rig, so I can't comment on sailing performance.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    Quote Originally Posted by djtil View Post
    Doc,

    The boat in the video is mine....

    You've built a beautiful boat. I'd happily motor along at 6 knots If I could look that good doing it.

    When I asked the guy who sells Oughtred catalogs about planing with a full load, he treated me like I was stupid. Then he said a 25hp motor should do it. Then he said maybe with 35hp. Have you tried anything bigger than the 6 horse?

    The design brief did say Fulmar was intended to carry 3 adults+, plane with a motor, and maybe plane under sail. Sorry to hear that hasn't worked out for you.

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    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    As an amateur designer, I've tried to wrap my brain around what it would take to have a boat that sails well and planes under power. Bottom line, you can't have the stern immersed while sailing, the induced drag kills sailing performance. A boat that will carry a big enough outboard to make it plane is going to be a dog under sail. There's probably a way to do it, involving a retracting prop and an inboard farther forward, but honestly, I don't see the cost and complexity as worth while.

    As for Lively, a three-person crew would weigh around 500 lb., the boat would probably weigh less than that. The math is pretty old fashioned.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    Have you tried anything bigger than the 6 horse?
    No I have not.

    I'm not disappointed. I just had to adjust my expectations. I don't really need or want this to be a go-fast boat.

    David

  19. #19

    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    I was reading this morning, and realized that I'd completely forgotten about the Christmas Wherry. It's now a leading contender, along with Fisher's Oxford skiff. Either one would be built with a weighted board, some modest ballast, and flotation.

    For a beginner sailor; is there any inherent advantage or disadvantage to choosing a narrower, rowing oriented hull for sailing? Would a wider boat enable more mistakes without capsize, or just allow the beginner to make the same mistakes with more sail up in the air? Keep in mind that sail area on these skinny boats is 90-100sf, and single handed sailing in this case comes with 260+/- lbs of moving ballast.

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    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Arthur Trollingson View Post
    I was reading this morning, and realized that I'd completely forgotten about the Christmas Wherry. It's now a leading contender, along with Fisher's Oxford skiff. Either one would be built with a weighted board, some modest ballast, and flotation.

    For a beginner sailor; is there any inherent advantage or disadvantage to choosing a narrower, rowing oriented hull for sailing? Would a wider boat enable more mistakes without capsize, or just allow the beginner to make the same mistakes with more sail up in the air? Keep in mind that sail area on these skinny boats is 90-100sf, and single handed sailing in this case comes with 260+/- lbs of moving ballast.
    There are some ways that the needs of a rowing boat are in direct conflict with those of a sailing boat. Directional stability is one of them. A good rowing boat tends to have a lot of it, but trying to tack some of these boats can be a bother, and they can end up in irons pretty often. For large people moving around in a small boat, stability is not just useful for carrying sail, it's also useful for not turning the thing over while switching places. On the other hand, the stability that makes a sailboat require less effort to sail makes the rowboat require more effort to row.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    Understood. Thanks John.

    Coming from a canoeing background, I'm not sure just how tender these wherry-type boats really are. Obviously a catboat would be the most stable choice, and probably most comfortable for passengers, however poor windward performance is a ding against really learning how to sail. I guess the appeal is that the things that make a narrow pulling boat move easily are the same things desirable for running with a little tiny outboard, or a trolling motor. Also, have you seen the transoms on these boats?



    That alone makes me want one.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    I do love those wherry sterns. I'm skeptical about whether that boat has enough stability to go to weather well. An athlete can generate as much as 1/4 hp for a limited time. By the time you've got a 2 hp motor on the boat, form drag is much less of an issue.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    Interesting... People were praising that design in an old sail and oar thread, but I guess for my needs, a proper sail and oar boat isn't what we need. Those two designs do lean more toward oar than sail.

    From what you're putting down, I'm getting that the Lapwing or Stornoway would better suit the task, at 5' 6"+ wide, and pretty flat, and 6' wide & more rockered, respectively.

    Lapwing:


    And Stornoway:




    When it comes time to change boats, it probably would be easier to sell one that looks like what people expect when they think "sailboat."

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    One thing to watch out for is that a boat with a long, straight external keel will be slow in stays, and get caught in irons. I noticed this especially with a Penobscot 14 I sailed the other day. I don't like having to back the jib to tack.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Oughtred Gannet stretched, or Fulmar shrunk...

    You do have a few competing interests but from my perspective it's all good. I think you need a bigger boat if indeed the entire squatch clan is coming aboard. The downside is the cost and time to build.
    Now, if this were to be an enterprise for the entire clan to enjoy for the rest of your natural lives I would say go for the boat you really want - you'd be surprised what an amateur can do with the right inspiration and some guidance. Buy plans where this is offered.

    As far as sailing goes, you just need to spend a lot of time in your boat. Get a split-rigged ketch or yawl and learn to make her go under all the sail combinations. At first you won't know how to get her going in light air or heavy air so you'll end up rowing or motoring. After a while you'll only use the motor when you want.

    If, on the other hand, there is a reasonable chance you will be mostly single-handing with mrs squatch along only occasionally, that's a bit different.

    Get a tinnie to go upriver.

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