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Thread: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VIDEO)

  1. #1086
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Jon Madison plastic welded at least his water tanks on Julia. He is a heck of a craftsman, but so is Leo.
    Leo's tanks did not appear to have baffles. Which is "baffling".

  2. #1087
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    Jon Madison plastic welded at least his water tanks on Julia. He is a heck of a craftsman, but so is Leo.
    Leo's tanks did not appear to have baffles. Which is "baffling".
    Tricky to do unless you are going for tabs and slots. An entire new set of seams to weld.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  3. #1088
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Leo, You asked for any advice that might sort the leaking fuel tank problem. If you have already returned the faulty tanks then there is no need to read any further. If you still have them then read on…

    However remote, there is always going to be a chance of leakage but this would be made worse if that leakage can not be accessed in order to repair it and the tank can not be removed. Those faulty tanks could be installed permanently and serve as retainers for removeable, flexible liners which closely follow the interior contours. This is not a new idea but used in WW2 aircraft where space was at a premium.

    If it is possible to modify the permanently installed faulty tanks so as to have an accessible/removable panel through which the collapsible flexible tank can be installed then the panels could also be used to carry the necessary services to engine, etc.

    Whatever the cost for such an alternative cure, it may be a small price to pay for peace of mind in the comfort of knowing that repairs are viable at some future date. The flexible inserts used in WW2 military aircraft also had the advantage of being self sealing for obvious reasons, but there should be no requirement in this case. It is doubtful if Tally Ho will ever be crept up on by some sneaky little Fokker!

    There must be a company somewhere who could manufacture these flexible tanks which were, I believe, constructed using layers of rubberised fabrics with the necessary metal fittings bonded to them. Whatever path you choose, I hope you come up with the right solution.

    Kind regards,
    Don Scott
    Firbeck, UK.

  4. #1089
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Don.... I don't think Leo reads this. I hope you don't mind that I am cutting and pasting it to his Facebook page, which he does read.

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/360933207985507
    Last edited by Hwyl; 10-23-2022 at 09:01 AM.

  5. #1090
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Don,
    That is a really great idea.
    I have no idea where those bladder tanks fall along the cost vs longevity scale, but it's hard to ignore the advantage of tanks that are forever repairable/replaceable without tearing the boat apart.

  6. #1091
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    I cannot imagine any way that trying to fit a bladder tank to these substandard tanks is a good idea. It requires major modifications to an already compromised tank that is in no way designed for a bladder in the first place. A composite or metal tank is the way to go.
    Tom

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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    I used a couple of bladder tanks for fresh water and blackwater holding in a fiberglass boat. They work great -- they conform to the shape of the space available and are very easy to install and maintain. I think Don's suggestion is right. If a metal tank develops a pinhole leak at sea, what's the option? And yes, it does seem like way more fuel/weight than necessary stowed too high and too far aft, but I assume Leo has done the number crunching on it.
    -Dave

  8. #1093
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    UH?
    Copper tanks of course.

  9. #1094
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    When I saw them testing the tanks I was sure they were going to burst, which mine did. Might have been the loudest noise I ever heard. But then I saw the bubbles, which mine also did. Extensively. I just dug out the seams and kept re-welding until they were tight. I very much related to the sinking feeling when the bubbles appeared. Baffles are certainly needed on a tank that size, plastic will deform over time otherwise. That's why they call it "plastic".

    In my opinion plastic is a great choice for water, but lousy for fuel. A steel tank with internal bladder would be top notch. My steel fuel tanks have lots of rust inside, plenty flakes off. They are 60 years old likely. Big filters mean it is not an issue but a bladder to separate the clean fuel from the steel would be cool I think.

  10. #1095
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    When I saw them testing the tanks I was sure they were going to burst, which mine did. Might have been the loudest noise I ever heard. But then I saw the bubbles, which mine also did. Extensively. I just dug out the seams and kept re-welding until they were tight. I very much related to the sinking feeling when the bubbles appeared. Baffles are certainly needed on a tank that size, plastic will deform over time otherwise. That's why they call it "plastic".

    In my opinion plastic is a great choice for water, but lousy for fuel. A steel tank with internal bladder would be top notch. My steel fuel tanks have lots of rust inside, plenty flakes off. They are 60 years old likely. Big filters mean it is not an issue but a bladder to separate the clean fuel from the steel would be cool I think.
    Copper was the material of choice in high quality boats.

  11. #1096
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Quote Originally Posted by pcford View Post
    Copper was the material of choice in high quality boats.
    Sounds cool, never seen one. How are the seams made? Brazing?

  12. #1097
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    Sounds cool, never seen one. How are the seams made? Brazing?
    as I recall folded seams and then soldered.

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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    When I saw them testing the tanks I was sure they were going to burst, which mine did. Might have been the loudest noise I ever heard.
    I was surprised that they used gas. Even at 3psi, a failed seam can be explosive. That is why you should fill with water and apply pressure. There is no stored energy in water as it is not compressible, so any failure releases next to no energy.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Leo has a number of choices to so we can only hope that he goes for the right one. However, the use of a restrained flexible bladder would still be a good idea. It was good in aircraft structures during WW2 and still good today. Why? Because they are specified in some current US military vehicles…go trawl the internet for proof!

    I must say that I cringed a bit when those plastic tanks were inflated without some kind of restraint. 3psi air pressure may not sound a great deal but it is when applied to large surfaces such as those that make up the plastic tanks. When using air pressure as opposed to liquid there is danger of explosion if a fracture occurs. I will not dwell on the theory of liquid being incompressible and therefore safer in testing. Suffice to say that testing those plastic tanks was akin to inflating a balloon and we all know what happens when one of them goes pop! The very act of inflating those tanks may have caused small fractures in the otherwise stiff seams and corners brought on by the outward flexing of the tank panels. We will never know.

    This all reminds me of my 20 years service in the RAF as an aircraft fitter (airframe). I worked on major servicing of the Lightening interceptor at RAF Leconfield in the mid 1960s. Mainly, I refurbished hydraulic components but was also responsible for rebuilding/tiring and testing the very thin main wheels. To inflate them, they were placed in a massive steel cage situated in an otherwise empty small hanger to over 300 psi which terrified us all. We only had Dunlop of Birmingham to thank for never having had a failure otherwise I am quite sure that the hanger would have gone into earth orbit, taking a few Brilcream Boys along with it. As a matter of interest, good pilots could get up to five landings on those tyres (tires) but two or three was the norm, so tire refurbishment was never ending and possibly the cause of greying and early hair loss for a number of operators. At 84 I still have my grey hair which can only be put down to the fact that I had sufficient rank to order others into the jaws of insanity and the possibility of becoming weightless alongside hundreds of rubber shreds, all winging their way skyward….Ah! Those were the days!

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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    3 psi seems a fair and reasonable test considering that a 1-inch square column of diesel fuel 3 feet tall weighs about a 1 pound and given the total weight of fuel and the fact that it can slosh around (even with baffles) in a heavy sea.

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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Quote Originally Posted by pcford View Post
    Copper was the material of choice in high quality boats.
    Actually copper is forbidden in diesel (and untreated gasoline for that matter) storage because it acts as a catalyst and turns diesel into sludge. Same thing for zinc, tin and lead and their alloys. Sure, it doesn't happen instantly and you can get away with it in high turnover systems, but no engine manufacturer approves those metals in their fuel systems.

    Self sealing flexible bladders are cost prohibitive, as is titanium. For a non corroding option he could use fiberglass with an appropriate resin.

  17. #1102
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Palmer View Post
    3 psi seems a fair and reasonable test considering that a 1-inch square column of diesel fuel 3 feet tall weighs about a 1 pound and given the total weight of fuel and the fact that it can slosh around (even with baffles) in a heavy sea.
    The test guy estimated 300 sq inches, a woeful underestimate. The ends were about 4 foot by 4 foot triangles, so that is 48 x 24 square inches times 3psi is about 1 1/2 short ton of pressure with an air spring full of stored energy.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  18. #1103
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    I think I remember reading that Tristan Jones had a rat gnaw a hole in his bladder water tank at sea.
    "I see!" said the blind man who picked up his hammer and saw.

  19. #1104
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    I'd put bladders inside the stinkin plastic tanks at this point.
    They do not make noise like a hard tank.
    This is a huge thing on a small seaboat, listening to the tempest under your bunk while doing a painless 5 knots on a calmish sea.More racket below than outside.

  20. #1105
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    I put new aluminum diesel tanks in my boat. I suppose Leo may go with aluminium instead.

  21. #1106
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    Actually copper is forbidden in diesel (and untreated gasoline for that matter) storage because it acts as a catalyst and turns diesel into sludge. Same thing for zinc, tin and lead and their alloys. Sure, it doesn't happen instantly and you can get away with it in high turnover systems, but no engine manufacturer approves those metals in their fuel systems.

    Self sealing flexible bladders are cost prohibitive, as is titanium. For a non corroding option he could use fiberglass with an appropriate resin.
    Yes. Runabouts, so only worked on gas.

  22. #1107
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Leo posted on instagram that he has had all sorts of problems with the latest video. Power outages and copyright problems mostly.

  23. #1108
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Fascinating woodwork.


  24. #1109
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Those deck coaming are artwork.
    Dang, those guys are good!
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.
    Skiing is the next best thing to having wings.

  25. #1110
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Tricky to do unless you are going for tabs and slots. An entire new set of seams to weld.
    I welded the fresh and grey water tanks for our bus out of 6mm HDPE, weird shapes (not quite boat weird), baffled, no tabs or slots, just not welded onto the the tank top. No leaks after 2500km of horrendous NZ roads.
    I bought a $200 hot air welder, the guy gave me a 15 minute lesson - it really is that easy. I was gobsmacked when I saw how badly the "professionals" had done on Leo's tanks.
    If you wanted to slot and tab, that would weld up super easily with no problems, just put a decent bevel on the tab - a block plane is perfect for this, its a really easily worked material.
    20220312_124212.jpg20220227_110628.jpg20220227_110628.jpg
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    Last edited by epoxyboy; 11-11-2022 at 01:37 AM.
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  26. #1111
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    It's beginning to look like a boat.


  27. #1112
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    That is such a good photo. The whole last drone sequence was exquisite. Lots of pro help involved now, it won't be long.

  28. #1113
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Then what will I watch on a Sunday evening?

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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    That is such a good photo. The whole last drone sequence was exquisite. Lots of pro help involved now, it won't be long.
    Yes, I suspect that Leo now spends most of his time managing the project instead of hands-on building.
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Footage of Martha starting at 14:10 is worth the price of admission by itself.

  31. #1116
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    That is such a good photo. The whole last drone sequence was exquisite. Lots of pro help involved now, it won't be long.
    Yea, with all that help they are cranking along. Good planning keeping things running in parallel. I suspect there will be a summer solstice launch.

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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Curious about the portlight installs (21:xx) in the companionway hatch. Why did they do them in-place? Couldn't they have dry fit, measured, marked, and routed with the sides horizontal on a workbench or sawhorses instead of routing the thick sides vertically while on the boat?

  33. #1118
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Spot View Post
    Curious about the portlight installs (21:xx) in the companionway hatch. Why did they do them in-place? Couldn't they have dry fit, measured, marked, and routed with the sides horizontal on a workbench or sawhorses instead of routing the thick sides vertically while on the boat?
    This question also occurs to me. It might relate to the number of time the piece is fitted?
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  34. #1119
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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    That boat deserves a better W.C.

    Either a top of the line Wilcox Crittenden or a Blake’s “Victory”.

    Both available fully reconditioned and “as new”.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: One insane englishman trying to rebuild the 1910 gaff cutter Tally Ho, in WA. (VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    That boat deserves a better W.C.

    Either a top of the line Wilcox Crittenden or a Blake’s “Victory”.

    Both available fully reconditioned and “as new”.
    I question the space in which the W.C. is placed. To efficiently "poop", a person's knees have to be spread at least 24" apart. With that cabinet he mentioned that will be just to the right of the W.C., I don't think he has that room.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.
    Skiing is the next best thing to having wings.

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