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Thread: Republican Tax Plan

  1. #1
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    Default Republican Tax Plan

    Barely out of the gate and the lies have started --

    https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/d...143000571.html

    In selling their soon-to-be-released tax plan, Republicans have been leaning hard on what they say is a provision to cut and simplify taxes for the middle class: doubling the standard deduction that people who pay income tax may take.

    "You have to look at the plan in its entirety. It doubles the standard deduction, so in the end, even the lowest rates get a tax cut," Rep. Jim Renacci, a Republican who sits on the tax-writing Ways and Means Committee, told Reuters.

    But a document published by Jonathan Swan of the news website Axios shows this is badly misleading — the plan would increase the standardized deductions available to taxpayers by 15% or less.

    Meanwhile, taxpayers who still wouldn't take the standard deduction under the Republican plan — those who would instead deduct things like mortgage interest — would pay tax on more of their income than they do now.......
    David G
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    Default

    No lies, just not fully cooked yet. It ain't perfect, but it's a start.

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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    No lies, just not fully cooked yet. It ain't perfect, but it's a start.

    • Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk
    • we have:
    • a growing deficit and national debt
    • increased military spending with no end in sight no matter who is in control of the pentagon's budget
    • a need for infrastructure maintenance and investment
    • regardless of the aca or any republican or bi partisan fix for the aca, we will continue to experience increased cost of healthcare paid for out of the federal budget
    • social security and medicare should be strengthened


    but a reduction in tax revenue seems a good idea?
    brilliant, stand that man a guinness. . .
    Last edited by Paul Pless; 09-28-2017 at 08:03 AM.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    No lies, just not fully cooked yet. It ain't perfect, but it's a start.

    Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk
    No lies?

    Just this morning, I heard Donald Trump say that he would not personally benefit from the tax reform plan.....

    ...I guess he forgot about the part which repeals the estate tax...which benefits his children, to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars.

    And you don't think that's a lie?

    NBC News: “The clearest windfall comes from ending the estate tax, which only affects individual estates larger than $5.49 million and $11 million for couples. The estate tax is currently 40 percent. Trump has claimed in the past he is worth $10 billion. If his children inherit that amount, they’d save $4 billion in taxes.”

    “In addition to a lower top rate on income tax, the proposal ends the Alternative Minimum Tax, which is designed to prevent wealthy filers from using deductions to wipe out their tax bill entirely. Trump has not released his taxes, but a leaked return from 2005 showed he paid $38 million in taxes on $150 million in income, $31 million of which was due to the AMT.”
    "Fact is that which enough people believe. Truth is determined by how fervently they believe it."
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    • we have:
    • a growing deficit and national debt
    • increased military spending with no end in sight no matter who is in control of the pentagon's budget
    • a need for infrastructure maintenance and investment
    • regardless of the aca or any republican or bi partisan fix for the aca, we will continue to experience increased cost of healthcare paid for out of the federal budget
    • social security and medicare should be strengthened


    but a reduction in tax revenue seems a good idea?
    brilliant, stand that man a guinness. . .
    Texas, Florida and US territories needing rebuilding to a higher standard. The infrastructure upgrades and maintenance needed to meet future vulnerabilities. The legacy costs of two wars. Federal Highway Trust Fund still insolvent. Federal Flood Insurance Program insolvent.

    And the idea is to reduce revenues for all these needs? How effing insane are people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    No lies?

    Just this morning, I heard Donald Trump say that he would not personally benefit from the tax reform plan.....

    ...I guess he forgot about the part which repeals the estate tax...which benefits his children, to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars.

    And you don't think that's a lie?
    Well - technically no. He doesn't benefit - his kids do. He's selfish enough to differentiate.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Texas, Florida and US territories needing rebuilding to a higher standard. The infrastructure upgrades and maintenance needed to meet future vulnerabilities. The legacy costs of two wars. Federal Highway Trust Fund still insolvent. Federal Flood Insurance Program insolvent.

    And the idea is to reduce revenues for all these needs? How effing insane are people?
    But they'll privatize all the highways - so no need for $ for those. Insurance? Who cares about the little guy?
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    Guys, what, are you surprised? The One Eternal Bedrock Principle of the Republican Party for most of the last century is Lower Taxes for the Rich. Other things come and go: pro- and anti-immigration, intervention vs isolationism, more or less military spending, deficits and austerity, civil rights and white power, pretty much everything is negotiable but that. That's the religion of the US right wing, or at least of those who pull the levers and finance the campaigns. The rest is mostly just stuff to keep the masses entertained.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    Wait till they trot out the growth fairy that will pay for all this.
    Tom

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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by ccmanuals View Post
    Wait till they trot out the growth fairy that will pay for all this.
    i was waiting for peb to be all over that
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    By now it should be patently obvious to all but the unwashed that anything proposed by the GOP is not good for the country, and they will try to obscure that fact with a blizzard of lies.

    C'mon people, wise up: next election, vote against EVERY Republican for EVERY office at EVERY level. Be patriotic, save the country.
    Gerard>
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    Next election, vote against EVERY Republican, for EVERY office, at EVERY level. Be patriotic, save the country.

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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    https://www.facebook.com/senatorsand...6361103657908/


    These folks really are deplorable. What I don't understand is how 'the masses' continue to support these bozos, even when they tell them, to their face, 'we're screwing you'. I don't know how peb defends this; gotta know better. But being Republican means never saying yer sorry! :P
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    But they'll privatize all the highways - so no need for $ for those. Insurance? Who cares about the little guy?
    What gets me is the cost of repairing, replacing, upgrading 60yr old bridges and highways hasn't gone down. The idea that revenues need to be reduced and the military needs to be increased is totally nuts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    https://www.facebook.com/senatorsand...6361103657908/


    These folks really are deplorable. What I don't understand is how 'the masses' continue to support these bozos, even when they tell them, to their face, 'we're screwing you'. I don't know how peb defends this; gotta know better. But being Republican means never saying yer sorry! :P
    pretty sure peb is outta here, he can't defend the indefensible; unlike grebe, phillip, noyes, mdh, geng he won't try to do so
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    What gets me is the cost of repairing, replacing, upgrading 60yr old bridges and highways hasn't gone down. The idea that revenues need to be reduced and the military needs to be increased is totally nuts.
    I agree 100%
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    60 votes for cloture. 50 votes for passage. It does not look like tax reform will go anywhere.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    As the tax reform debate heats up you will hear lots of talk from republicans about allowing corporations to bring back their profits from overseas to boost job growth and the economy. Don't believe it. This was done before in 2004. Instead of reinvesting they used these funds for stock dividends, buy back debt and pay executive bonuses.

    https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/d...-repatriation/
    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccmanuals View Post
    As the tax reform debate heats up you will hear lots of talk from republicans about allowing corporations to bring back their profits from overseas to boost job growth and the economy. Don't believe it. This was done before in 2004. Instead of reinvesting they used these funds for stock dividends, buy back debt and pay executive bonuses.

    https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/d...-repatriation/
    You'll also hear them attempt to characterize it as tax 'reform'.

    It's not Reformation... more like Deformation. Though serious tax reform would be an excellent idea. It's not serious if the underlying (and I DO mean lying) intent is to further line the pockets of the already-wealthy.
    David G
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    More lies --

    https://www.yahoo.com/gma/trump-advi...opstories.html

    "Everything we have done in this tax plan is to solve for the middle class."

    "In the interview this morning on "
    GMA," Cohn insisted the rich will not benefit under the plan."

    But when asked specifically whether the president himself will get a tax cut, Cohn would not say for sure.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    From 'MarketWatch' --

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/how...of2&yptr=yahoo

    What does it say when something has universal support among businesses and households, advocates on both sides of the aisle, and, if properly executed, the potential to stimulate economic growth, yet can’t get off the ground?

    Tax reform is complicated.......
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    pretty sure peb is outta here, he can't defend the indefensible; unlike grebe, phillip, noyes, mdh, geng he won't try to do so
    I don't onow enough yet to defend it or not. We are desperately in need of corporate tax reform. A lower overall corporate rate is half of that need, but it has to be done in parallel to wiping out most special deductions. Haven't read that much about it yet, so I can't say. First indication is not good if all capital expenditures can be immediately expensed. But I might not understand that part yet.
    In the personal tax code, it looks ok. I would have gotten rid of home mortgage interest deduction. We will see.
    I am certain no tax reform will be perfect, but until I see the details I won't defend nor condemn it. I won't join the chorus of assuming it is horrible and the death knell of our society. Certainly not prematurely.

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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I don't onow enough yet to defend it or not. We are desperately in need of corporate tax reform. A lower overall corporate rate is half of that need, but it has to be done in parallel to wiping out most special deductions.
    Lower corporate rates have a business constituency... special deductions have the SAME constituency. This is a constituency which will demand one, and refuse the other.

    Net zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I am certain no tax reform will be perfect, but until I see the details I won't defend nor condemn it.
    Well, you can at least start with the lies... for example, Donald Trump claiming, on video, that he will be 'hurt' by tax reform... when, in fact, the elimination of the estate tax will result in potentially a $4 BILLION windfall for his family. Sorry, but you can't spin that one away....

    ...and now even Gary Cohn is saying that 'some' middle class taxes will actually rise.... in direct opposition to Trump's own words.

    Yes, that's right, we haven't seen the details... and if the history of this administration is any indication, we will NOT see any details before any vote.

    Face it, peb... it's undeniable... this is an administration who simply does NOT know how to govern... they can't get ANYTHING done, despite owning all three branches of the federal government.
    "Fact is that which enough people believe. Truth is determined by how fervently they believe it."
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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bartlett in WaPo
    I helped create the GOP tax myth. Trump is wrong: Tax cuts don’t equal growth.

    Four decades ago, while working for Rep. Jack Kemp (R-N.Y.), I had a hand in creating the Republican tax myth. Of course, it didn’t seem like a myth at that time — taxes were rising rapidly because of inflation and bracket creep, the top tax rate was 70 percent and the economy seemed trapped in stagflation with no way out. Tax cuts, at that time, were an appropriate remedy for the economy’s ills. By the time Ronald Reagan was president, Republican tax gospel went something like this:


    • The tax system has an enormously powerful effect on economic growth and employment.
    • High taxes and tax rates were largely responsible for stagflation in the 1970s.
    • Reagan’s 1981 tax cut, which was based a bill, co-sponsored by Kemp and Sen. William Roth (R-Del.), that I helped design, unleashed the American economy and led to an abundance of growth.


    Based on this logic, tax cuts became the GOP’s go-to solution for nearly every economic problem. Extravagant claimsare made for any proposed tax cut. Wednesday, President Trump argued that “our country and our economy cannot take off” without the kind of tax reform he proposes. Last week, Republican economist Arthur Laffer said, “If you cut that [corporate] tax rate to 15 percent, it will pay for itself many times over. … This will bring in probably $1.5 trillion net by itself.”

    That’s wishful thinking. So is most Republican rhetoric around tax cutting. In reality, there’s no evidence that a tax cut now would spur growth.

    The Reagan tax cut did have a positive effect on the economy, but the prosperity of the ’80s is overrated in the Republican mind. In fact, aggregate real gross domestic product growth was higher in the ’70s — 37.2 percent vs. 35.9 percent.

    Moreover, GOP tax mythology usually leaves out other factors that also contributed to growth in the 1980s: First was the sharp reduction in interest rates by the Federal Reserve. The fed funds rate fell by more than half, from about 19 percent in July 1981 to about 9 percent in November 1982.. Second, Reagan’s defense buildup and highway construction programs greatly increased the federal government’s purchases of goods and services. This is textbook Keynesian economics.
    Third, there was the simple bounce-back from the recession of 1981-82. Recoveries in the postwar era tended to be V-shaped — they were as sharp as the downturns they followed. The deeper the recession, the more robust the recovery. Finally, I’m not sure how many Republicans even know anymore that Reagan raised taxes several times after 1981. His last budget showed that as of 1988, the aggregate, cumulative revenue loss from the 1981 tax cut was $264 billion and legislated tax increases brought about half of that back.

    Today, Republicans extol the virtues of lowering marginal tax rates, citing as their model the Tax Reform Act of 1986, which lowered the top individual income tax rate to just 28 percent from 50 percent, and the corporate tax rate to 34 percent from 46 percent. What follows, they say, would be an economic boon. Indeed, textbook tax theory says that lowering marginal tax rates while holding revenue constant unambiguously raises growth.

    But there is no evidence showing a boost in growth from the 1986 act. The economy remained on the same track, with huge stock market crashes — 1987’s “Black Monday,” 1989’s Friday the 13th “mini-crash” and a recession beginning in 1990. Real wages fell.

    Strenuous efforts by economists to find any growth effect from the 1986 act have failed to find much. The most thorough analysis, by economists Alan Auerbach and Joel Slemrod, found only a shifting of income due to tax reform, no growth effects: “The aggregate values of labor supply and saving apparently responded very little,” they concluded.

    The flip-side of tax cut mythology is the notion that tax increases are an economic disaster — the reason, in theory, every Republican in Congress voted against the tax increase proposed by Bill Clinton in 1993. Yet the 1990s was the most prosperous decade in recent memory. At 37.3 percent, aggregate real GDP growth in the 1990s exceeded that in the 1980s.


    Despite huge tax cuts almost annually during the George W. Bush administration that cost the Treasury trillions in revenue, according to the Congressional Budget Office, growth collapsed in the first decade of the 2000s. Real GDP rose just 19.5 percent, well below its ’90s rate.


    We saw another test of the Republican tax myth in 2013, after President Barack Obama allowed some of the Bush tax cuts to expire, raising the top income tax rate to its current 39.6 percent from 35 percent. The economy grew nicely afterward and the stock market has boomed — up around 10,000 points over the past five years.


    Now, Republicans propose cutting the top individual rate to 35 percent, despite lacking evidence that this lower rate led to growth during the Bush years, and a drop in the corporate tax rate to just 20 percent from 35 percent. Unlike 1986, however, this $1.5 trillion cut over the next decade will only be paid for partially by closing tax loopholes.


    Republicans’ various claims are irreconcilable. One is that the rich will not benefit even though it is practically impossible for them not to — those paying the most taxes already will necessarily benefit the most from a large tax cut. And there aren’t enough tax deductions, exclusions and credits benefiting the rich that could be abolished to offset a cut in the top rate.


    Even if they had released a complete plan — not just the woefully incomplete nine-page outline released Wednesday — Republicans have failed to make a sound case that it’s time to cut taxes.

    Nor have they signaled that they’ll commit to a viable process. It’s worth remembering that the first version of the ’81 tax cut was introduced in 1977 and underwent thorough analysis by the CBO and other organizations, and was subject to comprehensive public hearings. The Tax Reform Act of 1986 grew out of a detailed Treasury study and took over two years to complete.

    Rushing through a half-baked tax plan, in the same manner Republicans tried (and failed) to do with health-care reform, should be rejected out of hand. As Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) has repeatedly and correctly said, successful legislating requires a return to the “regular order.” That means a detailed proposal with proper revenue estimates and distribution tables from the Joint Committee on Taxation, hearings and analysis by the nation’s best tax experts, markups and amendments in the tax-writing committees, and an open process in the House of Representatives and Senate.

    There are good arguments for a proper tax reform even if it won’t raise GDP growth. It may improve economic efficiency, administration and fairness. But getting from here to there requires heavy lifting that this Republican Congress has yet to demonstrate. If they again look for a quick, easy victory, they risk a replay of the Obamacare repeal fight that wasted so much time and yielded so little.


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.8c4b6b9bea84
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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    xflow,

    Just so. Thanks.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Republicans’ various claims are irreconcilable. "We create our own reality."


    One of the great proponents of "supply side", "trickle down", "reaganomics" says it's all bull**** (with annotations no less). They're gonna drum him outta the party tomorrow.

    Great article. Thanks xflow7.
    "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Alice

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    Just curious— is there any documented case where upper-income/corporate tax cuts have indeed produced a general economic stimulus?

    Counterexamples are the tax cuts by Reagan, Bush, Brownback in Kansas, and Walker in Wisconsin. None of these produced enough revenue from growth to offset the huge giveaway to the fat cats. Am I missing something? Is there a line or two in the Bible? Did they hear it on Fox News?

    Where do they get this stuff?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chip-skiff View Post
    Counterexamples are the tax cuts by Reagan, Bush, Brownback in Kansas, and Walker in Wisconsin. None of these produced enough revenue from growth to offset the huge giveaway to the fat cats. Am I missing something?
    Yes. You are ignoring the fact that it's only the fat cats that Republicans care about.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    Let's see if your a family of four making 100k a year you get a grand, if your inheritance happens to be over the 11 million dollar tax exemption current level for a couple you get to keep it all tax free. This plan encourages the creation of a privileged class, I think Donald got a pretty good start under our existing rules.

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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip-skiff View Post
    Just curious— is there any documented case where upper-income/corporate tax cuts have indeed produced a general economic stimulus?

    Counterexamples are the tax cuts by Reagan, Bush, Brownback in Kansas, and Walker in Wisconsin. None of these produced enough revenue from growth to offset the huge giveaway to the fat cats. Am I missing something? Is there a line or two in the Bible? Did they hear it on Fox News?

    Where do they get this stuff?
    They get this stuff from those in the middle class and from the rich passing as middle class misrepresenting their economic condition and asking for economic relief and claiming they have been hurt for the last 30-40 years.

    Obama gave some people a tax gift when he made QCDs permanent.
    Last edited by Too Little Time; 09-28-2017 at 06:34 PM.
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    " To the privileged, equality feels like oppression. "
    Gerard>
    Everett, WA

    Next election, vote against EVERY Republican, for EVERY office, at EVERY level. Be patriotic, save the country.

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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan


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    4.5% bracket reduction for the top income tax rate. 2% bracket increase for the bottom income tax rate.

    Nope, clearly this won't help the rich and hurt the poor.

    Wow. Apparently even Trump doesn't think he can sell that second bit.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    It bears repeating:

    There was a time, before primaries, when each party's platform was really important. Voters didn't pick a candidate, the party did. Then voters read what policies the party planned to implement should it control the executive branch, and possibly a legislative majority. It was the policies that drew the most attention - not the candidates.Digging deeper today than shortened debate-level headlines, there is a considerable difference in the recommended economic policies of the two dominant parties.

    The common viewpoint is that Republicans are good for business, which is good for the economy. Republican policies - and the more Adam Smith, invisible hand, limited regulation, lassaiz faire the better - are expected to create a robust, healthy, growing economy. Meanwhile, the common view of Democrat policies is that they too heavily favor regulation and higher taxes which are economy killers.

    Right?

    Well, for those who feel this way it may be time to review the last 80 years of economic history, Bob Deitrick and Lew Godlfarb have done it in a great, easy to read book; "Bulls, Bears and the Ballot Box" (available at Amazon.com) Their heavily researched, and footnoted, text brings forth some serious inconsistency between the common viewpoint of America's dominant parties, and the reality of how America has performed since the start of the Great Depression.

    Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan is attributed with saying "everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." So even though we may hold very strong opinions about parties and politics, it is worthwhile to look at historical facts. This book's authors are to be commended for spending several years, and many thousands of student research assistant man-days, sorting out economic performance from the common viewpoint - and the broad theories upon which much policy has been based. Their compendium of economic facts is the most illuminating document on economic performance during different administrations, and policies, than anything previously published.

    Startling Results


    The authors looked at a range of economic metrics including inflation, unemployment, corporate profit growth, stock market performance, household income growth, economy (GDP) growth, months in recession and others. To their surprise (I had the opportunity to interview Mr. Goldfarb) they discovered that laissez faire policies had far less benefits than expected, and in fact produced almost universal negative economic outcomes for the nation!

    From this book loaded with statistical fact tidbits and comparative charts, here are just a few that caused me to realize that my long-term love affair with Milton Friedman's writing and recommended policies in "Free to Choose" were grounded in a theory I long admired, but that simply have proven to be myths when applied!


    • Personal disposable income has grown nearly 6 times more under Democratic presidents
    • Gross Domestic Product (GDP) has grown 7 times more under Democratic presidents
    • Corporate profits have grown over 16% more per year under Democratic presidents (they actually declined under Republicans by an average of 4.53%/year)
    • Average annual compound return on the stock market has been 18 times greater under Democratic presidents (If you invested $100k for 40 years of Republican administrations you had $126k at the end, if you invested $100k for 40 years of Democrat administrations you had $3.9M at the end)
    • Republican presidents added 2.5 times more to the national debt than Democratic presidents
    • The two times the economy steered into the ditch (Great Depression and Great Recession) were during Republican, laissez faire administrations

    The "how and why" of these results is explained in the book. Not the least of which revolves around the velocity of money and how that changes as wealth moves between different economic classes.
    "Fact is that which enough people believe. Truth is determined by how fervently they believe it."
    --- Charles Pierce







  35. #35
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    Default Re: Republican Tax Plan

    • Personal disposable income has grown nearly 6 times more under Democratic presidents
    • Gross Domestic Product (GDP) has grown 7 times more under Democratic presidents
    • Corporate profits have grown over 16% more per year under Democratic presidents (they actually declined under Republicans by an average of 4.53%/year)
    • Average annual compound return on the stock market has been 18 times greater under Democratic presidents (If you invested $100k for 40 years of Republican administrations you had $126k at the end, if you invested $100k for 40 years of Democrat administrations you had $3.9M at the end)


    So the Democrats are better for the rich. I think I will discard the above "facts" as I have done in the past. They may be true, but causality is lacking. As is context.

    It is interesting that the rest of the world does not influence the economy. Just the party of the president. China is doing well. Perhaps we could adopt China's policies. And add in single payer health care.
    Life is complex.

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