Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bainbridge Island WA
    Posts
    2,139

    Default Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    In this particular case I'm looking at a Fenwick Williams design from 1933. On the plans he got as far as specifying "cedar on oak frames" and stopped. Well, he does say the frames are to be 1 1/8" x 1 3/8" (MxS) but he doesn't spell out how thick he wants the planks or which variety of "cedar" he might have been thinking of when working up the scantlings. Using David Gerr's book on Boat Strength and Larry Pardey's on construction I've got it worked out that starting at 4/4 should put me at about the correct thickness after backing out and fairing.

    As a Pacific Northwesterner my "local" options are Western Red and Port Orford cedars but I'm curious about what an east coast designer might have been thinking of when he wrote down "cedar" in 1933.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Red Hook, NY
    Posts
    86

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    He probably meant northern white but western red is good enough stuff. Port orford is more expensive eh?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bainbridge Island WA
    Posts
    2,139

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    Yes it is.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    N.E. Connecticut.
    Posts
    5,204

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    Around New Jersey it would be "jersey white cedar", or more accurately "Atlantic White Cedar". It grows mostly from N.J. down into the Carolinas and is an amazing boat building wood.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    10,435

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    Red cedar is easily available in our neck of the woods. I use it when I want a light wood to work with. It can be brittle and it dents and splits easily. Port Orford is a wonder wood! Its perfume is amazing and a boat that is planked or sealed with it is pleasant, like incense, to ones nose! But it is scarce since the Japanese bought almost all of the available stock for re-building shrines and temples plus making plywood! Still available and certainly nearly as nice to work is Alaska Yellow Cedar. In fact is nearly as nice as Port Orford in many respects. Actually AYC is a member of the Cypress family and discourages all manner of critters that nibble on wood. Yellow cedar is good for planking and deck framing in a variety of boats from light to medium displacement.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 09-25-2017 at 06:32 PM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hills of Vermont, USA
    Posts
    20,747

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    Having worked a bunch with POC planks on my boat I can second his praise. Not that a man with his experience needs my backing...

    And - it's true that POC & AYC are actually types of Cypress. Eastern white is a cedar & quite different: lighter & more brittle.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bainbridge Island WA
    Posts
    2,139

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    Thanks for the information everybody. Actually starting this build in earnest is a few years off but I figure if I start gathering materials now as good deals/opportunity arise then it will be like building a boat from stuff I have laying around.

    However, today it is sunny, there is a lovely breeze blowing and I am off work so I am jumping aboard Marianita and going sailing.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bainbridge Island WA
    Posts
    2,139

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    That was nice


    Adventuress was out too



    She had a bunch of kids aboard, looked like they were having quite a time.

    So, back to planking thoughts. Mr. Pardey says you can get a good estimate of how much planking to acquire with the following formula

    (LODxH)x2 plus 30%

    Where "H" is maximum height of hull from rabbet to sheer

    Does that make sense? Anybody want to offer a competing formula?
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    PNW, an island west of Seattle
    Posts
    1,219

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    (LODxH)x2 is pretty much a quick calculation of the surface area of the hull. Then he adds 30%. When estimating for custom furniture and cabinets, I used to add 25 to 30% to all my materials estimates for cabinets, furniture... just about everything I built. None of which were as complex and subject to "mistakes" as a hull. If the material you get is subject to defects at all, those could eat up a 20% overage easily. So I think I'd bump it to something more.

    Jeff

    Edit: By the way, sailing was also pretty nice here on the west side of the island today. After beating north for a while, I had a splendid run back to the mooring.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bainbridge Island WA
    Posts
    2,139

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    I'm sitting here looking at the skeleton half model on the wall and thinking the formula doesn't address the area under the turn of the bilge very well, but what do I know? I will have to go get my scale rule out and see what happens.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Everett, WA, USA
    Posts
    419

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    Are you thinking of doing this one? It came up with a Google search for Fenwick Williams. Stepping it up in size from the Eun na Mara?




    Travis.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bainbridge Island WA
    Posts
    2,139

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    Close. Nettie has an extended cabin and a cutter rig, I'm thinking more like this:
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    13,201

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    AYC is a wood that the WHOLE boat can be built from. Keel,frames ,floors, stem,stern,planking and spars.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bainbridge Island WA
    Posts
    2,139

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    Running $10 to $15/bf on the Ednsaw website. Might just have to go on a filed trip and talk to the guys next week
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Shoreline, Washington
    Posts
    2,234

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    Basically I agree with Wiz. However, the only aspect of AYC which I regard as potentially inferior to WRC is that of dimensional stability, which has do with both species and grain orientation. Perhaps I am unfairly comparing more mixed grain AYC to to vertical tight grain red cedar. The latter is remarkably stable. I probably have a book in the office with the actual numbers.

    For awhile now I have heard that supply of big old growth coastal AYC from BC and Alaska is imperiled due to both raw numbers and disease. Recently I was told that a good supply is back on the market because of First Nations logging in the Queen Charlotte's, which strikes me as both fortunate and tragic. Current pricing might have something to do tariff trade spat on BC softwoods.

    My very favorite, and least available, is Port Orford Cedar. It has a very limited range, and the Japanese buy every stick they can. They also impact the AYC market

    Just awesome if you build this boat Steve.

    Eric

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Everett, WA, USA
    Posts
    419

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    Would you be going traditional carvel planking on this one or strip ala Wiz?

    Travis

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Mukilteo, WA
    Posts
    1,321

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    4/4 seems a little heavy for Annie, unless that is your raw material size. I would expect to finish somewhere just over 3/4 for that boat.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    13,201

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuri View Post
    Would you be going traditional carvel planking on this one or strip ala Wiz?

    Travis
    its no secret I guess. I would not even own, never mind build , a carvel boat.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    13,201

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    It is only about 5 years ago, I was buying AYC from Fred Tebbs in Tacoma for a buck a foot.not suitable for carvel, and just a few thousand bf of odd sizes they had here and there, but still a great ...and fair deal. I went in and told them I had a few grand to pop off and would buy most any AYC they had. They had pallets of weird sized AYC. It was all slated to get re sawn or planed to smaller conventional dimension.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    13,201

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    Look, Hvalsoe is building a much higher caliber of vessel than I am. Eric needs the best timber for the best boats. Me...not so much. One of strip planks advantages is that it can utilize oddball wood size and cut and quality.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Shoreline, Washington
    Posts
    2,234

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    It's true the context of my comments was plank on frame where I especially value dimensional stability, some people feel the opposite. I have the impression Steve might be interested in traditional carvel. That will be a chunk of change at middle man prices. Fair point regarding strip plank, a perfectly sound way to build a boat.

    The alarming comments I heard about AYC were in the last two or three years. Reference to the Queen Charlottes is recent.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bainbridge Island WA
    Posts
    2,139

    Default Re: Which cedar for planking 1930s era design?

    Eric is right, I want to build this one as a traditional carvel boat. Not that I didn't look hard at going another route or three. As the inimitable Mr. wizbang will attest strip planking has a certain appeal, and rightfully so. Cold-molded works too, as does going back to what I've already done on four boats (Flapjack Skiff, Deer Isle Koster, Eun Mara and Feather Pram) glued lapstrake. Madoc from down under was built in traditional lapstrake, I considered that too. But I want to get away from plywood and epoxy and really challenge myself on this one, which is a bit scary- epoxy is very forgiving. I'm only 51 so I have time and a good job so I don't have to do this on a shoestring budget (the kids are 25 and 27 so well on their own paths) I have indoor heated shop space and in the meantime I have my Eun Mara Marianita who is teaching me a lot about sailing that my previous dinghies could not.

    As I pointed out in an earlier post, this project is still deep in the planning phase. If nothing else I have to build us a new house first (the current one suffers from very bad bones, let's just say when I bought the place 15 years ago there was a lot of rot hidden in places the survey missed) but I'll have the plans for that shortly.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •