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Thread: first restoration problems....

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
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    omaha, ne. usa
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    Default first restoration problems....

    Hafer 16 ft skiff had been left outside for seveal years. Bottom of boat exposed. Built new stem, replaced several planking strips. Original wood was cedar, most likely. Bottom had been glassed before I believe as there were several patches of resin with fiber glass cloth pattern. Sanding what appeared to be bare wood clogged paper so went with paste chemical stripper twice until I was sanding wood. Once bottom was clean and smooth with wooden patches and epoxy putty, I glassed with 4 oz fabric 3 ways, right to left, up and down, and at 45 degrees. Painted 3 coats ablative paint and all looked great. Finished inside by patching with epoxy, coarse sanding, final cleaning with TSP, let sit overnight, primed with marine primer and 3 coats of topside paint. Last coat was 2-3 weeks before accidentally left in rain and sat for 2 days before being bailed out. All along stem and keel splits in glass where wood had swelled and being from a furniture finish background I knew anything loose had to come off. Repairing my repair now. Is this typical? Where did I go wrong? Thanks

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
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    San Francisco Bay
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    11,323

    Default Re: first restoration problems....

    Well, where you went wrong was sheathing with a material that did not move as much as the wood did when the moisture content of the wood changed. But you knew that, didn't you? Depending on the wood species, some swell more than others. Fiberglass resin is not as flexible as epoxy resin and some epoxy resins (e.g. WEST G-flex) are more flexible than others. Getting fiberglass to stick to wood is always a problem A balsa surfboard blank (in the old days) that is totally covered in a quarter inch of fiberglass is one thing and a 16' skiff is another.

    There are a bunch of "sheathers" in here that can probably give you better information than I can, but I didn't want to just leave your post hanging there. Welcome to the forum!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    Lake Champlain, Vermont
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    2,256

    Default Re: first restoration problems....

    Sorry for your misfortune and welcome. Bob is, of course, right.
    Sheathing is pretty much for plywood. It survives in that environment because plywood is stable. A real wood boat will move, shrink, swell and that combination will conflict with the more or less inflexible nature of GRP. You have a wood boat. Treat it like a wood boat. You will both be a lot happier. BTW, there are always exceptions but I dont think your situation is one of them. Bummer to go to all that work and have it fail.

  4. #4

    Default Re: first restoration problems....

    Quote Originally Posted by jonesmatt1957 View Post
    paste chemical stripper twice until I was sanding wood. Where did I go wrong?s
    Not sure if this is the source of your issues but it may be a contributing factor: many solvents/strippers are not chemically compatible with epoxy. Sanding often pushes some of the stripper into the wood leaving a little unnoticed residual amount of stripper behind. Thus the epoxy bond is less than desirable. That is why scraping contaminants away is preferable to sanding. Most epoxy disaster stories begin with "I cleaned the surface with solvent/stripper XYZ." Food for thought.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    320

    Default Re: first restoration problems....

    Around here lots of elderly clinker built wooden boats have been sheathed in fiberglass.
    Usually the keel and the garboards and the lower end of stem and sternpost rot prematurely as they are encased in fiberglass from the outside and soaked in rainwater from the inside so they are kept wet enough to rot and dry enough to rot.
    If the fiberglass cover is made too thin it often cracks just like yours did. If it is thick enough it is also heavy and makes the boat clumsy both ashore and afloat.

    So.... honestly.... if I had a wooden boat that cannot be made watertight anymore I would rather use it as mould for a new fiberglass boat than cover the old hull with fiberglass.
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    Newport News, VA
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    Default Re: first restoration problems....

    Thin sheets of FG cloth and resin are not going to work, waste of time and money and your effort.
    Like you found out they simply crack open. Wood will move, it will be a continual problem if you FG cloth this hull.

    Your boat needs a new bottom of wood, if you go with plywood, then you can glass it. Plywood better be good quality or it will delaminate.

    Other choice is a polyurethane sealer rolled on which will not crack but expand with the wood. It will have to be waterproof not water resistant. Even 5200 smeared on with a notched trowel work.
    How much do you like this boat?

    I have used in the past lots of polyurethane sealers.
    One very easy one to use is Loctite Black PL roof and flashing, it will adhere and stay on the hul under the water. Similar to 5200 but a lot less cost.
    Likely cost you about 30 to 40 tubes and a few cans of fibers to seal the entire bottom.
    It can be mixed with 1/32 milled fibers. 30% fiber to 70 % goo.

    http://www.homedepot.com/p/Loctite-P...5273/203163733

    I have some threads on here about sealing my wood hull using it. It has been highly successful. Was like buttering a cake. I used a metal 6 inch wide putty knife to apply the goo.

    The fibers I recommend as it will give it even more strength yet still stretch and flex.

    Example, the yellow coating is Sani Tred Permaflex, while it did work ok, it costs more is harder to work with, it drips upside down is miserable, much easier and better to use the thicker Loctite.

    these coatings are strong waterproof durable and wont ever crack or split or peel and they are not very heavy in weight and the cost is reasonable. The black PL has been on the boat in the water since fall of 2014 and it has not come off.
    The Sani Tred Permaflex has been on the hull since 2006. It's only failure was on the keel where it was fitting like a glove, so I cut and peeled it off and went with black PL on the keel. Then for the bow, I ground off the permaflex and went with black PL 10 foot mixed with 1/32" milled fibers.

    The keel wood is white oak and planks are mahogany, permaflex stuck well to the mahogany but not the white oak. even sanded the two wood surfaces feel very different.
    The black PL will yield more as the wood moves than the permaflex. as it is a softer rubber, more like a car tire rubber. Permaflex is a harder rubber.














    The last pic, shows how tough it is even without adding fibers.
    My boat scraped in a storm on the dock and rubbed a bolt, the rubber survived fine with no damage, but the paint was scraped off.
    I had coated the aft hull sides with Loctite Black PL, no added fibers, starting from transom up to where the tank vent sits.

    I did make a paint discovery with Black PL. I painted my hull with acrylic white latex paint, it has been fine on top of Loctite Black PL.

    But where I did some black PL coating around the windows and then painted with Rustoleum Topside white paint, that oil based paint developed some fine cracking lines, which I think is because oil paint gets brittle with age, may even desire to shrink and the black rubber yields so the paint surface can crack. So do not paint oil based paints on Loctite Black PL roof and flashing or it may crack the paint surface. It took over a year for some areas of the paint to develop fine crack lines. They are not all over, but it will likely get a little worse over time. It is just due to the fundamental surface natures of these 2 materials.
    Last edited by sdowney717; 09-25-2017 at 08:28 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    omaha, ne. usa
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    Default Re: first restoration problems....

    Thank you very much for all your replies. I used a card scraper for a few days before the paste stripper. I had no problem with the glass fabric adhering, I was flummoxed by how quickly the water in the bottom of the boat migrated through all the new paint. Lesson learned. This is not my boat and the owner and I are winging it. The boat was basically on the way to the dump before it was rescued and the provenance is the reason the restoration is happening. So, my thought is to strip the paint halfway up the sides, fair the hell out of the bottom and sides, glass and fill bottom and paint again. The owner realizes at this point the inside needs to be kept dry as possible and a maintenance schedule every year. Also I want to put boracare on the bottom after stripping.
    2017-09-25-19-31-26--1837024873.jpeg2017-09-25-19-32-02--333153692.jpegk
    Attached Images Attached Images

  8. #8

    Default Re: first restoration problems....

    Lotsa praise for Loctite PL thoughout the boating industry. But my experience with it was dismal. There are lotsa types of PL and maybe the type I used was the wrong type for wet application. It failed surprisingly easily. Here is my story
    http://boatbw.blogspot.com/2016/08/pl-failure.html

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    Newport News, VA
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    Default Re: first restoration problems....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mo 'Poxy View Post
    Lotsa praise for Loctite PL thoughout the boating industry. But my experience with it was dismal. There are lotsa types of PL and maybe the type I used was the wrong type for wet application. It failed surprisingly easily. Here is my story
    http://boatbw.blogspot.com/2016/08/pl-failure.html
    PL375 is the wrong stuff to use.

    I use the PL premium 3x strength, found to be waterproof even between underwater seams at least by me.
    The PL 8x i read the tube says not waterproof and a premium price, not worth it, IMO. Although I might buy a tube to see what it is like.

    Loctite will not authorize underwater use even if it might work, the products are not marketed to the public for that. I have found the Loctite Black roof and flashing does work fine underwater, does not come off. It is similar to 5200 but a little softer rubber.

    And I don't know about this idea of using it for carpet glue. PL 3X is going to swell up as it cures, so it might make the carpet look rippled? Although it would probably work, And other issue is movement, if say the glue was partially cured, and you move it, your destroying the strength of the bond.

    The black PL would work, if you used a notched trowel, it does not swell, it is waterproof, I mean it won't come loose. But why not use an adhesive like contact cement for this ?

    I did glue a headliner fabric together with it. working ok. One advantage is you have a long long working time. To some that might be a disadvantage!
    Thread with pics
    http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...ight=headliner
    I suppose without pics, it is just fake news




    Last edited by sdowney717; 09-26-2017 at 06:20 AM.

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