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Thread: The new shop build

  1. #71
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    What an opportunity for warm-water in-floor heating.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Christie View Post
    What an opportunity for warm-water in-floor heating.
    don't know about UP THERE

    butt down here 6' is all the deeper you have to go to get a constant temp for the tubing

    and we get about 67º year 'round

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

  3. #73
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Quote Originally Posted by swoody126 View Post
    don't know about UP THERE

    butt down here 6' is all the deeper you have to go to get a constant temp for the tubing

    and we get about 67º year 'round

    sw
    Frost line (how deep the ground is frozen) is 4 ft. Closer to 5 in some places. Any water line has to be at least 4' deep & I try to do 6' on any I put in.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  4. #74
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    I am watching your progress with great interest! I like the arch top doors! My own shop has a Victorian look to match the house and carriage house so as to fit into the neighborhood.
    Jay

  5. #75
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Wow Jay! That is lovely, I can guaranty my work won't be up to that standard. I'm shooting for a sort of early 20th century "Railroad/Industrial" style, with board & batten siding and custom trim. It won't be as elaborate as that though -- I'd never get it done.

    I did give some thought to installing radiant heat in the slab, but it's just too much of a budget-buster for me.

    Tom

  6. #76
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    You have only ONE chance to install the tubes. Hook it up later.
    https://www.radiantec.com/product/58...nt-pex-tubing/

  7. #77
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Quote Originally Posted by moTthediesel View Post
    I did give some thought to installing radiant heat in the slab, but it's just too much of a budget-buster for me.

    Tom
    Tom, Thanks for your response.
    An old workmate installed it himself in his 20' x 20' house here about 20 years ago for $1000!
    He used the proper tubing, a small pump and a 3000 watt, 5 gallon hot water heater from the hardware store.
    It's an open reservoir type system and he couldn't be happier.
    A timer has it on from ~3 pm until ~3 am through the winter months.
    They supplement with a small wood stove when needed.
    I think he had the tank set at 78 degrees Fahrenheit.
    It is by far the nicest way to heat a shop IMHO.

    As I recall, he had to install baseboard heaters to pass the occupancy permit requirements, but then removed and returned them.
    (They weren't even wired.)

    Nice looking build, keep up the good work.
    Last edited by Tom Christie; 12-29-2017 at 07:24 PM.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    I am impressed. This beats the H811 out of my driveway floor...

  9. #79
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Christie View Post
    Tom, Thanks for your response.
    An old workmate installed it himself in his 20' x 20' house here about 20 years ago for $1000!
    He used the proper tubing, a small pump and a 3000 watt, 5 gallon hot water heater from the hardware store.
    It's an open reservoir type system and he couldn't be happier.
    A timer has it on from ~3 pm until ~3 am through the winter months.
    They supplement with a small wood stove when needed.
    I think he had the tank set at 78 degrees Fahrenheit.
    It is by far the nicest way to heat a shop IMHO.

    As I recall, he had to install baseboard heaters to pass the occupancy permit requirements, but then removed and returned them.
    (They weren't even wired.)

    Nice looking build, keep up the good work.
    Well Tom, you've "set me to thinkin'" -- a radiant slab would be awful nice! A good friend of mine here in Northern NY has one, and it is NICE. I kind of rejected the idea out of hand, but I'll run some numbers now and look at it -- it's not too late at this point -- thanks!

  10. #80
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    The “groundwork” for radiant heat should be pretty cheap. A radiant barrier under the slab and a bunch of 1/2” hepex tubing. My 500 sq ft shop has three 200’ lengths of tubing. The manifolds and heat source(maybe solar) could all be added later. It looks like 1000’ of tubing is only $200ish on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HFFCL9Q...ing=UTF8&psc=1

    My radiant barrier was a thin layer of bubble wrap kind of stuff with a foil layer on both sides. I’m not sure there isn’t something better 17 years later.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    The “groundwork” for radiant heat should be pretty cheap. A radiant barrier under the slab and a bunch of 1/2” hepex tubing. My 500 sq ft shop has three 200’ lengths of tubing. The manifolds and heat source(maybe solar) could all be added later. It looks like 1000’ of tubing is only $200ish on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HFFCL9Q...ing=UTF8&psc=1

    My radiant barrier was a thin layer of bubble wrap kind of stuff with a foil layer on both sides. I’m not sure there isn’t something better 17 years later.
    I am planning on insulating around the slab perimeter with 2" XPS foam 4' wide anyway, it wouldn't add that much to just do the whole thing. If you root around on C-list, you can often find used foam that was removed from under commercial roofing. That stuff is perfect for under-slab insulation.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Quote Originally Posted by moTthediesel View Post
    I am planning on insulating around the slab perimeter with 2" XPS foam 4' wide anyway, it wouldn't add that much to just do the whole thing. If you root around on C-list, you can often find used foam that was removed from under commercial roofing. That stuff is perfect for under-slab insulation.
    DON'T neglect the vapor barri...retarder!
    Even with your weed fabric.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Quote Originally Posted by moTthediesel View Post
    I am planning on insulating around the slab perimeter with 2" XPS foam 4' wide anyway, it wouldn't add that much to just do the whole thing. If you root around on C-list, you can often find used foam that was removed from under commercial roofing. That stuff is perfect for under-slab insulation.
    I didn't run the numbers but I suspect that this amount of insulation is minimal for your climate. I have 2" of XPS under my heated slab and I live in western Washington on Puget Sound. Our winters are pretty mild compared to yours. A proper analysis will show that you will regain the initial cost of insulation installed during construction through energy savings. Creature comfort is a bonus.

    If you aren't aware of this site, you should be: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com

    I understand that there is a cost budget. There always is.....

    Jeff

  14. #84
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Quote Originally Posted by moTthediesel View Post
    I am planning on insulating around the slab perimeter with 2" XPS foam 4' wide anyway, it wouldn't add that much to just do the whole thing. If you root around on C-list, you can often find used foam that was removed from under commercial roofing. That stuff is perfect for under-slab insulation.
    Hauling it home is an awful strain on the truck and/or trailer...

    I'm sure you've thought of this, but bring a dozen or so plywood L's to protect the edges when you tie it down.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  15. #85
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Quote Originally Posted by moTthediesel View Post
    Wow Jay! That is lovely, I can guaranty my work won't be up to that standard. I'm shooting for a sort of early 20th century "Railroad/Industrial" style, with board & batten siding and custom trim. It won't be as elaborate as that though -- I'd never get it done.

    I did give some thought to installing radiant heat in the slab, but it's just too much of a budget-buster for me.

    Tom
    Tom, I wanted to match to the 1889 house so I added the gingerbread

    Your's is going to be just fine! I am also a railway nut!

    I did add a secondary foundation under the boat space with removable hatches. This allows for accessing keel bolts and dropping or installing a rudder from below. Will you have room for a spar bench?
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 01-03-2018 at 01:24 PM.

  16. #86
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    I think this was the stuff I used under my slab: http://www.aimradiantheating.com/sto...lation_BFB.pdf

  17. #87
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Quote Originally Posted by moTthediesel View Post
    I am planning on insulating around the slab perimeter with 2" XPS foam 4' wide anyway, it wouldn't add that much to just do the whole thing. If you root around on C-list, you can often find used foam that was removed from under commercial roofing. That stuff is perfect for under-slab insulation.
    You said, "insulating around the slab perimeter with 2" XPS foam 4' wide". That sounds like a "Shallow Frost Protected Foundation" which only needs to have 16" to 20" deep footings. I've been researching building an energy efficient house for over thirty years. A SFPF makes a lot of sense in the northeast. Dig a hole in the ground and you have a swimming pool!

    It's easy to "fall in love" with some of the ideas, such as thermal slabs, radiant floors and large south glazing.

    The problem with radiant floors, is all the plumbing and pumps and boiler, talk about cost and upkeep. And who has experience in living in such a house/shop? I've a friend here in Maine who has a radiant floor in his home and he complains about the very slow response to temperature changes.

    Being a boatbuilder, I haven't had the money to make my dream house/shop come true, so I've had to work with what I have. My shop was a 2x4 framed and sheathed garage with a concrete floor. My first shop had a concrete floor and my legs and tools paid a heavy price in pain and dents. I wanted a wood floor. Easy on the joints, on dropped tools and a great place to layout and screw down big jigs.

    I insulated the stud cavities with fiberglass insulation and added 2" foam board, strapping and drywall. I put 2" x 2" sleepers on the floor and 3/4" hemlock 4' interlocking grids.

    I insulated the ceiling the realized I had enough space in the attic to make a second floor finishing room, insulating it like the first floor. We had a efficiency blower test done on the house and shop and the shop test results were great.

    My 30' x 30' first floor shop is heated/cooled with mini split heat pump. My second floor shop can be heated to 80˚ with just a oil/electric heater. Our house has two more mini splits. Our 34 solar electric panels provide 75% of our needs for our total electric house and shop. They might do even more if my wife would let me go up there right now and clear the snow off.

    The mini-split heat pumps have interior and exterior units which are compact without all the plumbing/ducting of other heat systems.

    We will never look at the sun in quite the same way!

    All the best,
    Rob Macks
    Laughing Loon Custom Canoes & Kayaks
    http://www.laughingloon.com/
    207-549-3531


    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.” - Chinese Proverb

  18. #88
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Cool...I would live a shop like that!

  19. #89
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Re floor heating.

    I think in a colder climate (where you are, compared to here) running the system full time may be the key. Although, effective passive solar heating could mean shutting it down on sunny days.
    Lag time can be considerable and hence the timer.
    Another approach could be varying the water temp to coincide with the outside temp.
    This could be an automatic feature.

    My friends system takes up less space that a forced air furnace and is zero maintenance.
    The quality and effectiveness of the heat distribution is fantastic.
    He has no mold issues in outside corners, no condensation problems, and it's economical.
    Certainly not for everyone if you are accustom to instant heat though.

  20. #90
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    I’ve been very happy with my radiant heat in the shop floor. I installed it myself to a diagram by a local plumbing supply house. I think the parts cost about $1500 including an $800 high efficiency gas water heater with power vent. I usually keep it set to 55f as that is a comfortable temp for working when your feet stay warm. Response time isn’t important as I never touch the thermostat. I also ran a pair of 200’ loops into the rear part of the house. Those are on a timer to heat the floor of the kitchen, bathroom, pantry and mud room for an hour early each morning. Not really to heat the space, just to have a nice warm floor when you come downstairs.

  21. #91
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Mr L wrote:
    "They might do even more if my wife would let me go up there right now and clear the snow off."

    Try them vertically during winter months.
    No snow accumulation and near max gain.
    That's how we run our seismic sensor stations, year round.

  22. #92
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    It's been hard to get much done, what with the holidays, and the frigid cold, and truck-trouble. I did get out today though,and after an hour or so of snow blowing, we were able to see the greenhouse foundation.



    I should take a moment to mention the provenance of those old 6x6's, we do have a history. More than thirty years ago, the hemlock stringers began to fail on the main pier dock at our family business. My Pop had made that dock in 1953, hemlock 6x6 stringers on cribs of the same species. The cribs had held up better than the stringers, but they had sadly both outlasted Dad. My brother and I stripped the upper works off, working on the ice in January, and I called around to the local lumber yards to find replacements for the long beams.

    At that time, we didn't have much access to the treated pine that is everywhere now, and I wanted to get red cedar. Unfortunately, nobody was stocking any in the lengths we needed (18'), but I did find a place in Clayton NY that had yellow cedar. As a callow youth, I had never even heard of the stuff, but the old guy who ran the yard assured me it would be OK for the job. So the CEO (Mom) cut a check, and they delivered it the next day. There was a lot of snow that year, so we had to skid them down the last half mile of our road with our tractor.

    Just moving them, we were completely taken with the smell, familiar (cedar-y?) but different. Even more so when we trimmed them to length -- intoxicating -- and that color! Those stringers (of course) held up great for another 30 years, but by then the original hemlock cribs were well past their sell-by date, and again the pier needed a rebuild. This time it was done with hybrid steel/concrete cribs, and an all treated wood upper works, but there was plenty life left in those glorious yellow cedar stringers.

    I stacked them carefully, well off the ground, and I have used them for a number of tasks, including the foundation of the strongback I built for my 38' cruising launch build. It's a shame, but those went up in flames, along with the boat, when my shop burned a couple of years ago. I still had enough though, to use for the foundation of this plastic greenhouse shop. And best of all, still today, whenever you do anything with those beams, THAT SMELL comes back! Even today, in the cold and wind, just sliding a aluminum scoop shovel over them is enough to release that essence. As I said -- GLORIOUS! Even more so knowing that (at least here in Northern NY) they are irreplaceable now.

    Tom
    Last edited by moTthediesel; 01-02-2018 at 08:36 PM.

  23. #93
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    I've never worked with yellow cedar. Your story makes me want to go find a piece.
    It's great that you can re-purpose this wood from the past. May I inquire on what the family business is? A marina? If so, do Forum members get free dock space?
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    I've never worked with yellow cedar. Your story makes me want to go find a piece.
    It's great that you can re-purpose this wood from the past. May I inquire on what the family business is? A marina? If so, do Forum members get free dock space?
    My Uncle gave me a beautiful clear length of yellow cedar 4x6 for me to fashion the bowsprit for my Francis 26 many years ago. It's a wonderful wood to work with, denser and stronger than western red or eastern white cedar. That's the only other time I've ever had my hands on it, if I lived in the PNW it would be a different matter.

    Our business is principally vacation cottage rentals here in the Thousand Islands, but we have lots of docks as well. I think if any forumite was to venture to these parts in their boat, we could probably find them some cleats to tie to.

    You can see some pics from here in my friend John Hartmann's "An Ilur in Vermont" thread.

    Tom

  25. #95
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    This is amazing to watch. I'm relegated to a single bay in an uninsulated two-car garage right now but its great to dream of something better. I'm hating the frigid weather we're experiencing in the Northeast right now.

  26. #96
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    I’ve been very happy with my radiant heat in the shop floor. I installed it myself to a diagram by a local plumbing supply house. I think the parts cost about $1500 including an $800 high efficiency gas water heater with power vent. I usually keep it set to 55f as that is a comfortable temp for working when your feet stay warm. Response time isn’t important as I never touch the thermostat. I also ran a pair of 200’ loops into the rear part of the house. Those are on a timer to heat the floor of the kitchen, bathroom, pantry and mud room for an hour early each morning. Not really to heat the space, just to have a nice warm floor when you come downstairs.
    Sounds great, Steven. I will want to talk more about your system when your Maine Boatbuilders Show party rolls around!
    Last edited by rbgarr; 01-03-2018 at 01:19 PM.
    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

  27. #97
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Quote Originally Posted by moTthediesel View Post
    My Uncle gave me a beautiful clear length of yellow cedar 4x6 for me to fashion the bowsprit for my Francis 26 many years ago. It's a wonderful wood to work with, denser and stronger than western red or eastern white cedar. That's the only other time I've ever had my hands on it, if I lived in the PNW it would be a different matter.

    Our business is principally vacation cottage rentals here in the Thousand Islands, but we have lots of docks as well. I think if any forumite was to venture to these parts in their boat, we could probably find them some cleats to tie to.

    You can see some pics from here in my friend John Hartmann's "An Ilur in Vermont" thread.

    Tom
    I can still remember the "flip-the-hull" party at John Hartmann's house as he was building WAXWING. He really knows how to treat his friends! The food was delicious. I've only spent one weekend in the Thousand Islands, attending a wedding. Beautiful country.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Today our weather turned, and we were able to work out side in balmy mid-30's temps. I pressed my live-in assistant into helping, and despite blowing wet snow, she enjoyed every bit of it.



    It went together well, the only difficulty was in feeding the ridge pole through the peak fittings. Any variation in frame curves (and inevitably, there will be some) results in mis-alignment. Nothing that couldn't be overcome with the application of a heavy dead-blow hammer however

    It now looks like a nice space, and I'm looking forward to closing it in and getting to work in there. The frame still needs four courses of purlins hung, but that won't take long.





    Next we'll close in the ends with foam board panels, with a double sliding door in front, and an opening window in the back. Then we'll cover it with the plastic, move the saw station inside, and we can get to making some sawdust.

    Tom

  29. #99
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Yellow cedar was my choice for 14 windows, 2 dutch doors and a hatch on my houseboat.
    Worth every penny and very forgiving for an intermediate wood worker to graduate to an advanced-intermediate.
    Too bad it's not more available to you Tom.

  30. #100
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Quote Originally Posted by moTthediesel View Post
    Well, the only other "tricky bit" of the tube frame construction was the peak fittings, where the tubes meet. Those would be made from 1-1/4" EMT, which makes a nice slip fit over the 1-3/8" fence tube. Yeah -- that makes no sense, but it works???

    My CAD program (Draftsight) showed an included angle of 113 degrees, so I would need to miter and then weld it. I guess there's a lot of ways you could do that, but I like to print tube wraps, mark, and then cut. This is a new program I have found for that, and it is the bees knees! If you ever need to do this these kinds of pipe intersections, save this link! http://dogfeatherdesign.com/ttn_js/

    This is a very simple intersection, of course, this program is capable of much more complex work. Anyway, I fed in the details, and printed this out.



    ...

    Tom
    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    The link to the tube cutting program is worth the price of admission all by itself. Thanks a million!

    Jeff
    Yowza... this is pretty cool. I'm a wooden boatbuilder wannabee. I did spend a week in Brooklyn Maine at the school with John Brooks building an 18' lapstrake rowboat. Somewhere here I've got plans for a 12' Ellen.

    Oooh. and I'm the author the software at http://dogfeatherdesign.com/ttn_js/.

    I originally wrote it for myself, added some stuff to it, than posted it online. Free to use. No ads. I didn't think there was much use for that software in the wooden boat building arena (except perhaps to make a prop shaft box, see the help screen for Round/Flat templates). I will say... if there is a feature that I can add to the tubenotcher paper template software that would help others here, please let me know... best to use the contact link on the tubenotcher webpage...

    Tom & Jeff, thanks for your support! Good luck on your projects...

    LB
    Last edited by zipzit; 01-26-2018 at 05:08 PM.

  31. #101
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    BOY! I feel like a real wimp! It was nearly 40 in my shop today and I was grousing that my feet were getting cold. Guess I'm gettin' old. I got some of those Harbor Freight link together work pads for around my bench and they help a lot and take away some of the anxiety of a tool hitting the ground.

  32. #102
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    BOY! I feel like a real wimp! It was nearly 40 in my shop today and I was grousing that my feet were getting cold. Guess I'm gettin' old. I got some of those Harbor Freight link together work pads for around my bench and they help a lot and take away some of the anxiety of a tool hitting the ground.
    My gift to you today is to assure you that you are not a wimp for having your shop at 40. My shop hovers in the mid 60's all the time with its radiant heat. Now that may be wimpy, but I won't admit to it. But I am getting old....

    Jeff

  33. #103
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    "As I said -- GLORIOUS!"

    You and I feel the same about AYC. The sawyer nearby calls it Nootka cedar, and while I work it with power tools almost exclusively, it is a wonderful and forgiving wood to hand forge. What's the birdbox for in that earlier pic? / Jim

  34. #104
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Quote Originally Posted by zipzit View Post

    Oooh. and I'm the author the software at http://dogfeatherdesign.com/ttn_js/.


    Tom & Jeff, thanks for your support! Good luck on your projects...

    LB
    Hey -- That's awesome! I'm glad to (in a way) meet you. I do a bit of car and motorcycle fabrication work too, so I will have plenty of use for your software again, I'm sure. I really appreciate when bright folks like you post things online to help us backyard knuklebusters. Thanks a lot!

    Tom

  35. #105
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    Default Re: The new shop build

    Quote Originally Posted by chas View Post
    "As I said -- GLORIOUS!"

    You and I feel the same about AYC. The sawyer nearby calls it Nootka cedar, and while I work it with power tools almost exclusively, it is a wonderful and forgiving wood to hand forge. What's the birdbox for in that earlier pic? / Jim
    AYC is a great favorite of mine, it's just a shame I live 3k miles from where it grows :<(

    The bird house is my Dad's old purple martin house. I guess you don't recognize a martin house because (I just checked) purple martins are about as common on Vancouver Island as Alaskan yellow cedars are in Northern NY - such are the limitations of our personal geography

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