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Thread: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

  1. #1
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    Default Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    I think I like building as much as sailing. Or, maybe more sailing when the weather is nice and building when the weather is cold and wet.

    I've been exploring my next build.

    Some of my requirements/preferences:

    Easily trailerable to explore new areas as well as just daysailing on a whim.
    Small cabin to throw bags of stuff in and keep it contained and dry or to take a nap in. No furniture, just a pad on the floor is fine.
    High peaked gaff yawl with a bowsprit - cause that's what I really like.
    I want her pretty. Bright spars, Sapele trim.
    Glued lapstrake hull for trailerability, looks and the sound lapstrake makes on the water.
    Light enough to easily launch and recover on sketchy launch ramps but big enough to sail with a friend or two.
    Unstayed rig. No spars over the length of the boat so that it stores in a clean package. Mast pole will act as a ridge pole for the cover on the trailer.
    Small deck with high coamings for comfortable/relatively dry sailing.
    Easily beachable
    No ballast to keep her light but sealed flotation chambers.

    So far, here's what I've come up with:



    She's a blend of things according to my preferences and construction methods.

    Hull - glued lap plywood. Hull form is basically a scaled up version of a Pooduck Skiff. Length is just under 17 ft. She's pretty beamy at 6'-6".

    Rig - Pretty much a scaled down version of a Chebacco with an added jib and bowsprit.

    Dry weight should come in around 700 lbs making it easy to trailer.

    Thinking of keeping the mizzen on the centerline and using a push-pull tiller.

    Cabin/topside is sort of like a Meadow Bird though not quite as tall. Foredeck has a pretty good crown with a decent ring frame to accommodate the unstayed mast.




    Above is a stick version of me in various positions to see relative scale.

    This is still in the early stages. If there's interest, I'll share my efforts on the design/development and then later transition into the build. I'd like to start the build in November.

    I realize there are a lot of good existing plans and designs out there. I guess I'm looking for more than just a build but also a creative exercise personalized to tick all my boxes. I think this one will do that.

    Travis.
    Last edited by Zuri; 09-22-2017 at 10:23 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    But why not start with the Meadow Bird plans and then make customizations? No need to start from zero if youre going to end up in roughly the same spot.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    That's a sensible suggestion. Meadow Bird 16 has a similar profile. She's a very pretty design.

    Couple of reasons. It's strip built (not for me). The hull is quite a bit different. It has a partially lowered keel to make the cabin a bit more accessible.

    I'd rather have the flatter floor and a tucked up centerboard so she's easier to beach (one of the important boxes I forgot to mention) and will sit lower on the trailer making it easier to launch in shallow ramps.

    Mine is about 6-inches wider and 6 inches longer.

    I very much like her topsides though - That's why I took some inspiration from her design.

    Travis.
    Last edited by Zuri; 09-22-2017 at 09:30 PM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    I am now in possession of Stambaugh's builder's plans-- 9 highly detailed sheets. There is an option for a flat floor and tucked up centerboard included in the plan.

    Granted, there is some centerboard case hanging below the bottom of the boat, but only 6 inches, acting as a keel.

    Stambaugh authorized me to stretch the design by 18 inches LOD.

    Also, I'm building it lapstrake, not strip built. Also per Stambaugh.

    So I think all of your concerns are addressed, save 6 inches on the beam.

    I'd like to challenge you to a friendly competition-- who will finish the build first? If we are both working from the same essential design, it would make a good race. I haven't quite begun yet.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Alright Desert Rat, I'm up for a friendly competition. But, this is more of a sidetrack since I have Zuri, which will keep me busy for a few more years. I'll be shifting my time back and forth between them. I imagine this will take me a couple years. Besides, my intent isn't to knock her out quickly - it's more of a personal exercise of learning, acquiring new skills, crafting, problem solving and ending up with something I'll enjoy using.

    Do Stambaugh's plans line off the strakes?

    Also, the website drawing shows a stayed mast and tabernacle. Is there an unstayed option? That's where the Chebacco aspect comes in on this one for me. It's just coincidental that the rigs look the same.

    Travis.
    Last edited by Zuri; 09-23-2017 at 01:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Travis, are you aiming for an unstayed rig? Without stays, the jib is likely to have a very saggy luff - John Welsfords Pathfinder is a similar size and rig when built as a gaff yawl (which mine was), and really only needs stays so that you can get a bit of tension in the rig.

    Pete
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Thanks Pete.

    Good point. Yes - I'm aiming for unstayed. I'll see how she does without them at first but may need a couple to tension the jib luff. I'll install some backer plates in the original construction so that I can add chainplates easier later if needed.

    Travis.

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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    My 0.02 - If this is for solo use then a smaller boat will be fine. But if there's going to be more than one of you on board then the bigger the better.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Agreed on size. This size will be right for my intent. It fills the gap. I have the dinghy (Shellback) for smaller and Zuri (32 ft ketch) for bigger. I had an O'day daysailer of roughly this size for a few years. There were several things I liked (size, towing, launching, perfect for 1-3 people daysailing) and a few things I wish it had (small dry cabin, better looks, and a prettier rig). This will hopefully remedy the things I wanted to change. The daysailer was a great boat - sailed great. It's just that for me, when sailing, I don't really care for an aluminum spared Marconi rig, even though that setup points better. It lacks the soul that a hand crafted, wood spared rig has.

    Travis.

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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    You have come very close to Fetch


    Oughtred Fulmar with a cabin, Kees Prin designed it, There is a thread on here about the boat but it no longer has pictures.
    Steve

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    In the Meadow Bird plans, the mast is stepped in a tabernacle which bears down to the keel below. It steps forward of the cabin, not through the coach roof. The mast spar, once dismounted from the tabernacle, is short enough to stow within the length of the boat. All of the 3 rigs shown in the plans are stayed on spreaders.

    As for strakes, Karl supplied a CAD sketch showing six strakes beyond the flat ply bottom, drawn at the center station. The garboard and sheerstrake are shown at about 8" each, the others at 6". He hasn't drawn out the full length or shape of the strakes, so you'd have to do a little figuring to get your shapes, but not much. Karl recommended 1/4" ply for the strakes.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Rat View Post
    In the Meadow Bird plans, the mast is stepped in a tabernacle which bears down to the keel below. It steps forward of the cabin, not through the coach roof. The mast spar, once dismounted from the tabernacle, is short enough to stow within the length of the boat. All of the 3 rigs shown in the plans are stayed on spreaders.

    As for strakes, Karl supplied a CAD sketch showing six strakes beyond the flat ply bottom, drawn at the center station. The garboard and sheerstrake are shown at about 8" each, the others at 6". He hasn't drawn out the full length or shape of the strakes, so you'd have to do a little figuring to get your shapes, but not much. Karl recommended 1/4" ply for the strakes.

    interesting, I built an Alpha Dory with 1/4 inch ply strakes and had to put in a couple carefully cut sticks between each frame to spread the ply so it would bend fair, it was too flexible. If I did it again I would use 3/8ths... no I'd actually use 5/8ths white pine.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Steve - Fetch looks very nice. I wasn't aware of that one. Interesting that the seats are deck height. I think I want to sit a bit lower than that. Looks like he's deck stepped the mast and used the cabin front as a beam, which is pretty clever.

    I am planning on hollowing out the boomkin and running the sheet through like you did on your Eun na Mara. That's a nice detail.

    Thanks Desert Rat, I'll definitely be following your build. Interesting that the strakes are 1/4" ply. Maybe since he has 6, there are more overlaps which act like stringers. I believe he also has plywood frames, so spacing of those would do it too.

    Daniel - I'm sort of with you. Not the pine but the 3/8" plywood planks. It'll be 3/4" floor and 3/8" strakes for me. Probably 4 strakes per side. I like the look of larger strakes. I'll loft it and see how it goes. That's subject to change.

    Travis.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Hull now lofted w/ 4 strakes and a bottom panel.



    And the corrected profile of the hull showing 4 strakes.


    There's a few other corrections/alterations. The coaming/cabin transition is now more accurately presented. I can't do a single board sweep since the coaming will be raked out (for comfort) and the cabin more vertical. I added a small toe-rail along the forward section of the deck. Shrouds (though I think in this case these are technically stays) whatever, have been added to help tension the luff of the jib.

    Next, I think I'll start cutting sections to look at cabin roof and deck profiles.

    Travis.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    She's not very big. Good thing I'm not tall (5'-7"). This would not work very well for you bigger guys. For me though, I think she'll be pretty comfortable. Snug - but ok for an overnight, or a nap out of the sun, or tuck in and wait out a rain shower. Great for daysailing and beaching.



    Travis.

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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Like it! B+B Coresound Mk3 is a tempting package in this size, but i do like a planked hull and a different rig, if only for asthetic reasons. Look forward to developments.

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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    I'd make the stem a little more vertical, and give her a fair bit more beam. Inspired by the venerble Hartley 16. And make those strakes a lot narrower. More planks, nicer shape.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Coresound is an interesting boat. From what I understand, it sails great and the people that have them love them. It definitely has more interior space. It's just not my cup of tea.

    The Hartley 16 is a pretty good comparison. That got me thinking. I wanted to see how much different the hulls are. Here are my lines scaled and superimposed on the Hartley 16.




    No too far off. Proportionally similar volume, rocker and length to width. The Hartley hull has a slightly deeper forefoot increasing the water line length a bit. I hesitate to do this, since I know I'll be able to develop the panels in relation to the stem. I basically already built a 2/3rd size model of the hull with the Shellback and am comfortable with how this will go together. I personally like the 4-strake look and think I'll go with that.



    I like the large strakes - I think they'll go well with this design.

    Travis.
    Last edited by Zuri; 09-24-2017 at 06:48 PM.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    I spent some time playing with the Hartley 16,at least on paper and with models, modified with a raised flush deck and a drop bulb keel, was my attempt at an alternative to the Hensevel 15. Its a good load carry hull form. The 3 plank topsides on the 13 worked out quite well, sometimes its enough to break up a large surface without trying to emulate a round bilge hull shape, very much open to personal asthetics.

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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Talking with Stambaugh about double-ended vs. transoms, he observed that the transom adds significant form stability, having corners to lean on. Your design brings the bottom panel back to a tight point, as a sort of blend between double-ended and transom. If you were designing for a ballasted keel, this would give you a more wave-friendly ride as you depend on ballast for stability. But if you're designing for a centerboard, you might end up wanting a wider bottom panel at the transom for stability.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Thanks Skaraborgcraft - I've been following your 13 build.

    Desert Rat - agreed. Widening out the transom would provide more stability. So, as with any design, how much is good enough? (rhetorical, you don't have to answer)

    Did I mention that I essentially built a 2/3rd model of the hull?



    And have been testing it out over the last few months. The Daysailer will have 4 strakes rather than 3 but it's essentially the same hull form.

    I know I said from the onset that there wouldn't be any ballast but that's not exactly true.

    I plan on putting a battery bank in which will weigh about 240 lbs.

    I'll build a couple rudders, one with an integrated motor like I did here:



    This electric propulsion was actually a test exercise for this upcoming boat. I like it very much and will include it in the daysailer.

    With the Shellback, I have about 90 lbs of batteries surrounding the daggerboard trunk here. With this, I can sit on the far back corner and still have 6 inches of freeboard. To scale up 1.5 times the size, to replicate my effect on the daysailer, you would reduce my weight to just under 1/3 or 1/(1.5^3). What I'm saying is that even if I weighed 3 times as much and sat on the back corner, the proposed daysailer would still have an acceptable heel. With regards to sail, I keep the same proportional CE and CLR. Sail area ratios between a proportional lug and what I show are similar but the CE is slightly lower than the lug, meaning I can expect a similar response in hull stability and possibly a bit less heeling. All that is acceptable to me.

    I'm not starting off from scratch. I am utilizing a pretty proven hull form. Joel White seems to use this shape for the Nutshell, Shellback and Pooduck skiff. I've just scaled it up a bit more. This boat will be essentially a big dinghy.

    She has a fine exit, which helps to row (I'm not planning on doing that much). It will help with the electric propulsion though since it doesn't take much to get her going. When heeled over just a bit, she stiffens right up. I think this will work well for my purpose.

    Travis.
    Last edited by Zuri; 09-25-2017 at 02:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Travis, I have a question concerning the rudder with integrated motor: I've read elsewhere that the casing of the trolling motor setup is used as a sink to cool the motor. Your rudder mount *appears* to encase the motor. Does it? If so, might this be of concern in regard to insulating a designed heat sink(motor casing) from direct contact with the intended cooling medium(water)?

    I ask because I am considering various methods of building into a dinghy a 30 lb thrust motor I have on hand and thus far I have intended the motor casing would be fully exposed to flowing water for this reason. I am not, however, certain this truly is an issue. I assume you've not had any issues with your setup. Thoughts regarding this as an issue/non-issue?

    What voltage is your setup(12/24/36) and do you plan to use batteries of said voltage in parallel or lower voltage batteries in series? I've used a single group 29 12 volt but am considering multiple 6 volt batteries instead.

    Thanks,

    Ken

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    I did encase the motor. There are 3 layers of 6 oz glass.



    This motor is 12v. All out (55 lb thrust) it's pulling about 570 watts from the batteries, just under 50 amps. Motor stays cool. Works great. I've done about 70 miles so far with this setup.

    I don't think cooling is an issue. Fiberglass with epoxy resin isn't the greatest thermal insulator. With 500 watts of power going into the motor, there just isn't that much heat to dissipate. The motor is never warm when I check it after a long run.

    I'm still experimenting with batteries. Right now I have a group 24 deep cell and a couple smaller purpose built AGMs for trolling motors. I tend to like the AGMs better and will go with those for the daysailer. They'll integrate into the floor easier and I can seal them up/secure them for submersion. No gassing off which is good too. I'd like to experiment making a bank of 18650 LIOs, but that's down the road a ways.

    Travis.
    Last edited by Zuri; 09-26-2017 at 01:09 PM.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Travis,
    A few observations based on my camp cruiser experience and what you've shown so far.
    1. That foredeck is going to be untenable for dealing with the jib in any kind of weather where you would need to do so unless you plan on roller reefing.
    2. The furthest aft seating position is pretty far aft for a boat that is not that big. I would venture to guess that sitting back there, even with the width of transom that you have will sink the stern several inches. You may or may not find that acceptable. I see you are using a CAD program. Try shifting the centre of mass aft with the existing design and see what it does to your waterline.
    3. I get the desire for a small cuddy cabin and the one you have drawn has nice lines, however, as you have pointed out, it is not very big. With the wide centre panel on the hull, consider moving the centreboard to one side - i.e. make it an off-centreboard. You'll never notice any difference in sailing performance and it would make the cuddy space much more useable without the board smack dab in the centre.
    Alex

    "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    ...Or just extend the centered case six inches below the hull (incorporated into the keel), and lay a flat floor over the minimal case that protrudes above the bottom panel.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Rat View Post
    But why not start with the Meadow Bird plans and then make customizations? No need to start from zero if youre going to end up in roughly the same spot.

    There is a glued lap option for Meadow Bird. You can check it out at Chesapeake Marine Design - John

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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Thanks Alex. I won't really be cruising in this like you do with Fire-Drake. This is more of plunking around daysailing, lake sailing, exploring estuaries, maybe some camping. If I'm out on the Salish Sea for more than an overnight trip, it'll be with Zuri.

    I'm not going with roller reefing but I think I'll integrate the jib and forestay and run a block out to the end of the bowsprit so I can douse it whenever needed. There's also a hatch I can poke out of if the water is a bit messy and sheets get fouled up. I imagine that I'll sail this like I did with the Oday Daysailer. I don't really want to take it out in conditions that would be harrowing to be out on the deck.

    The seating isn't as far aft as the dinghy. There is an aft deck that will house the boomkin, mizzen, motor controller and act as a back rest and added flotation. I put together a top view:



    The cuddy is pretty much just that, but sealed off to keep stuff contained, dry, out of site and if I shift the stuff around I can take a nap out of the sun. I don't mind sharing with a centerboard poking up. It's worse than that, there's a mast in the way and the batteries extend around the centerboard trunk taking even more space. I want to keep the centerboard centered because the battery bank will be integrated around the centerboard trunk with various ribs and holdowns. It will act as ballast and I want that centered. I'm also using the centerboard trunk for main sheet control too.

    I do appreciate the advice and experiences shared. This boat is definitely a bunch of specific compromises suited for me and not optimized for general use.

    Desert Rat - I see what you did there. Nice.

    Speaking of unconventional, I don't really like rowing much. To me it's like driving backwards. It's not the work, I like the actual motion of rowing, I just don't really like not seeing where I'm going. On the other hand, I do like stand up rowing. With the raised coaming, this boat could suit me well for stand up rowing.



    Looks like 9 ft oars would work. My preferences/ergonomics are shown above. I plan on making a couple take-apart oars that can be stowed for when I feel like stand-up rowing. I know I'd enjoy that (following some of the rivers around here in on the flood an out on the ebb).

    Travis.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Quote Originally Posted by Landlockedvoyager View Post
    There is a glued lap option for Meadow Bird. You can check it out at Chesapeake Marine Design - John

    Thanks, That's what Desert Rat is going to build. For reasons suited to me, I'm pretty sure I'm going to build my variant. When done, it'll be interesting to see the differences.

    Travis.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    I thought the forward hatch on Marianita was going to be a lot easier to use than it is, and she has a lot more room up there than your SDCC. Do a little mock-up and make sure you bend in the right spots to do what you want up there. Having the roller furler at the end of my bowsprit is pretty sweet, hoisting sail for me is mizzen then main and she'll pretty much just sit there while I head back to the cockpit. Once there I pull on the appropriate jib sheet and off we go. There are DIY videos out there if you don't get lucky and score a nice way under-priced bronze one like I did.

    Am I the only one here who thinks Travis has a suspiciously clean shop?
    Steve

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    R.D Culler

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Alright Steve, I'll try to post more dirty pics.

    I mean of my shop.

    Here's one.



    Travis.

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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Nope, that ain't gonna work. Sure, you have a few picturesque wood shavings on the floor, but it's still a clean shop. Sorry!

    I think your plan for stand-up rowing is a good one. My new boat has the oarlocks more or less evenly spaced between two thwarts, so I can row conventionally from the forward thwart, or turn around and row facing forward from the aft thwart. It is a nice option to have for exploring narrow little creeks and such.

    Tom
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  32. #32
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Would a boat like this respond well to a sculling oar or yuloh?
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    You guys are a tough lot. I'll try to post dirtier photos.

    Not sure about sculling or yuloh Steve, It would be fun to experiment with them. Gotta build the boat first.



    There will be a battery bank surrounding the centerboard trunk. It will stick up a few inches above the floor taking up some space.


    There will be (10) batteries. Each weighs about 22 lbs, has about 0.500 kwhr so a little less than half the size of a group 24. They are sealed up AGMs, perfectly suited for this. The motor will be a 36v 112 lb thrust unit. Batteries will be divided into 3 banks 3S2P for the primary 3S1P for the reserve and a single battery for the 12v lights. Other than the motor, the electrical will be pretty minimal - 2 cabin lights, nav lights and a USB socket for charging phone or tablet.

    The batteries should give me a flat water range of about 30-35 miles.

    The shaded area is the flat floor area that gives me about 34 inches of vertical space above the floor. I think that will be sufficient for what I'm doing. The cuddy/cabin will not be something you'd want to spend a bunch of time in, but it will keep stuff dry, contained and provide enough space for me to lay down in. I mention this just to point out that I have reasonable expectations of the type of accommodation this is. I'm ok with it.



    Centerboard will not be weighted. A shock chord will keep it down and a 1/4" line will haul it up. Pick points will be eyes let into the construction of the board. Above the foil line, where the centerboard is thickest, channels will be routed for the two lines around the perimeter contact.

    There's still a several details to work out, but it's sufficient for me to start construction. I have some obligations next month, but when I get back, I'll start fabricating components.

    I do need a name for her. I'm kind of thinking something along the lines of Shallow Harbor, or Silent Cove or some sort of play on this being a shallow water, silent running explorer around the edges. Any Ideas?

    I also like Sanderling for a name. That's a local bird. I see tons of them around the places I like to be. This boat kind of shares the same areas.



    Travis.
    Last edited by Zuri; 09-27-2017 at 07:11 PM.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    Pretty cool to see a one-legged bird doing so well (must be a centerboarder--no double bilge keels for him).

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    7,669

    Default Re: Small Daysailer Camp Cruiser

    I like everything in the plan except the 34" overhead in the cabin. Put in even a thin mattress, and most people will be close to but not quite able to find sitting headroom. To my way of thinking, that "not quite" space is worse than accommodation that doesn't even come close to allowing sitting headroom. I'd be looking to get a few more inches -- at least in part of the cabin. More crown to the deck, a slightly raised hatch, or these combined with a bit more height on the cabin sides. I like to find a comfortable spot, warm and dry, to sit and read after the sun goes down. Can Sanderling offer this?
    -Dave

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