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Thread: Fast sailer 12' or under.

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    I was one click away from purchasing a Minicat 420 when I decided to build my S11N (which I maidened on Sunday woot!). While the nesting Spindrift fits in the bed of my pickup truck it's still not as portable as I would like it to be. It still takes two people to load it into or out of the back of the truck. This is due more to the size than the weight. About the only thing more portable would a folding boat but all the plans for those that I've found are rather ugly and I doubt they are very fast.

    I would really like to build another boat. The S11N was my first build and I'm sure I could do a much better job if I built another one. I may just build another Spindrift or PT Spear/11 or similar and pick up a Minicat after all. The Happy Cat looks interesting also but I don't see any North American dealers. You can buy a Minicat 420 Emotion for less than $4700 on ebay so I may just go that route.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    I spent around 400€ on my version of the PT-11 and it fits the trunk of my Sharan...without removing the second row seats.

  3. #38
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyweather View Post
    I guess we are almost looking for the same boat...

    Like the S12 and just built a PT-11 (sort of).
    Portability is my main concern.

    There is another very sporty inflatable catamaran. The Grabner Happy Cat. Only 50kg and fast. Saw some here and one in Croatia in really heavy winds.
    No wood of course.

    Maybe something bigger if it really nests? That's ~1m short... probably can be done in wood.


    Some other boats I am looking at are the Truc12 and the ZEN. No plans available though.

    The last option for thrill I am thinking about is non wooden...an inflatable foiling Windsurfboard.

    The Reverso is clearly a sophisticated and of the moment design but this appears to have been achieved by paying a heavy price in terms of weight. I also doubt it can be as fast as the video suggests based on sail area to weight ratio and how bendy the mast must be. Perhaps my little table just reinforces what a great building material wood is in the hands of a good designer.




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  4. #39
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    I guess it could be done under 45kg if you go for XPS/4mm ply/glass sandwich. The Aero is a very similar design after all.
    The PT-11 uses a similar unstayed carbon mast without the tuning abilities of other boats.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Quote Originally Posted by roam View Post
    The Happy Cat looks interesting also but I don't see any North American dealers.
    Not necessarily a problem; I have had several inflatable sailboats airmailed directly from a Euro manufacturer. You might even buy it cheaper than Europeans can because your shipping fees and modest duty are balanced by no gigantic VAT tax! The $ exchange rate is or at least was more favorable than it has been for a decade or so.

    When the previous Minicat US dealer went awol, I ordered a boatshow demo Emotion (never wet) from the Czech makers at a discount. I ordered a sailing Dinghygo from the Dutch maker with just a clickity-click on his web site. I have put a deposit down thru the UK Kayacat web site, although my options-loaded sailing model is eternally on hold due to some problem with the sliding seat rowing hardware.

    I accidentally ordered a US Aquaglide Supersport from a Barcelona web site and although they repeatedly screwed up the order they went to extreme lengths to correct it due to (I think) stricter EU consumer law. They would, for instance, ship parts from Aquaglide HQ near me back to Spain, and then half a world back to me with an explanatory note to customs saying not to charge duty. The idiots at Aquaglide HQ would not ship direct to me, nor would about 5 of their US dealers I tried (sometimes after taking my $).

    There were a few pitfalls to negotiate, but if the expense of the Happy Cat doesn't deter you take a look at their technical tips page http://www.happy-cat.at/fileadmin/Da...ailingtips.pdf . They strive for excellence in such a maniacal way, you are certainly getting undreamed performance for an inflatable. The competition between Minicat and Happycat has pushed the price/performance ratio maybe too far. I would probably go for the pretty Laura Dekker 420 Minicat at most, which I think sits between the Emotion and the Evoque.
    Last edited by rudderless; 10-02-2017 at 05:07 PM.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    There is another solid New Zealand dinghy that may suit your purposes better and that is the Sunburst.
    At 11 foot it could be carried on your yacht, plus it is a 2 person boat.
    Great to sail and can be made to go fast by increasing sail area, it has a spinnaker.
    Plus you can row and it will carry a small outboard.
    http://sunburst.org.nz/

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    I've been lucky enough to interview most of the best racing dinghy and skiff designers around, and most of what they say would make one steer away from the Zen and Reverso and to a lesser extent the Truc. If the designers behind them (who seem to be lacking in recent racing dinghy experience) are right than all of the guys who design champion International 14s, skiffs and Moths and the most popular production dinghies are all wrong. The reverse bow is known to be very problematic in racing dinghies, while the wide sterns can be seen as hangovers from the 1960s; an era when it was believed that boats planed off their sterns. Most boats now are less wedge shaped because that shape tends to be slower and much harder to handle. As for the skinny sidedecks - what the ?????? Have these guys never hiked?

    EDIT - and Tink's table shows that the stats for the Reverso are actually inferior to designs that are 30+ years old.
    Last edited by Chris249; 10-02-2017 at 10:20 PM.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    The HappyCats seem to be rated as being either considerably slower than a 420 or Laser Radial (for the Neo) up to about as fast as a Laser Radial (for other versions). The only time I saw anyone inflate a similar cat it didn't look fast to rig or on the water. The Brits used to have a fast inflatable cat, the Catapult, but I think it's long out of production.

    This may be a silly question, but can you windsurf already? If not, unless you live in an area with excellent conditions you're looking at several years of practice to be able to sail a foiler. Forgive me if you've already tried it, but you may also find the problem that you rarely anchor a cruising yacht in area that have the strong and steady winds you need to sail a slalom board. Slalom rigs are also hard to put together on a boat or in the water.

    Starboard have a new longboard windsurfer that looks good. Because of the length and the centreboard, it can easily sail in the conditions most yachts anchor in. The longboard style also goes well with a simpler rig that is easier to put together on a boat, although the Starboard version looks a bit problematic. Hopefully it's a proto rig. We're probably going to get one of these for cruising ourselves.

    There are also inflatable shortboards that, like the Starboard, now have rails that release properly and they seem to perform well. I'm going to push for a JP or RRD to go along with our longboard.


  9. #44
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    The reverse bow is known to be very problematic in racing dinghies, while the wide sterns can be seen as hangovers from the 1960s; an era when it was believed that boats planed off their sterns. Most boats now are less wedge shaped because that shape tends to be slower and much harder to handle. As for the skinny sidedecks - what the ?????? Have these guys never hiked?
    Reverso's small deck and overall wedge shape is needed for max nestability; every piece will just fit into the next sternward piece. I believe heavyweather didn't have to keep to a wedge due to his unconventional nesting for a specific vehicle, not like teacups. Nesting makes an amazing little package for those like me whose boat priorities are the smallest possible rigid stack to liberate us from exhausting inflatable setups. I hate the weight and the reverse bow, but Hobie switched to the latter in this year's rotomolded catamarans and I take it as an unavoidable style statement for the mass market. I worry about beach launching a heavy segmented Reverso, because even in my modular Pointe 65 kayak the sand can push in between segments and jam up joints.

    My compact hatchback turns out to be 2 inches too small for Reverso yet my assigned parking spot is too small for an SUV. So I am sizing up station wagons or miniSUVs that might hold the thing. I didn't suggest this boat to the OP, but the latest Reverso video does show a flexi container to hold the nested reverso stack aboard a yacht. I would rather die than assemble a Minicat 420 aboard a yacht; it half kills me ashore on hot days even tho I leave some parts pre-assembled. PT Spear sounds like good wood for OP, with its double role.
    Last edited by rudderless; 10-03-2017 at 12:04 AM.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Can't agree more to what you have said, creative types have ago at something that Is far more complex and empirical than they comprehend. The ergonomics of the Zen particularly offensive

    Side thread - name a successful boat designed by an inexperienced sailor

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    The Truc12 and ZEN do look quite sexy though and are probably not meant for competitive fleet sailing either. The Reverso even less so. But I am very interested what ought to be changed to better there performance or overall abilities to make such a hull even more fun to sail.
    If everyone was sailing 420ties it would be rather boring.
    There has to be some middle ground between competitive dinghy sailing and underperforming small boats.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    They may not be designed for competitive fleet sailing, but why make them hard to sail?

    What could be done would take a book. The wide sterns, for example, cause nosediving. What designers have learned over the past couple of decades is to keep the stern narrower than in the boats above, but to maintain speed by keeping the buttock lines straight. That allows the crews to move aft and sink the stern, rotating the bow up. It also reduces wetted surface area.

    The wide sterns in the boats above seem to be inspired by Open style racing yachts - but Opens rely much more on sailing heeled and using the shift of buoyancy that creates. Dinghies gain stability from crew weight, and the crew is closer to amidships most of the time. Therefore the stern isn't having the same effect as on an Open, but it does create drag and cause nosediving. The 29er and 49er do have fairly wide sterns, but in short they operate at different ratios and speed regimes to the hiking singlehanders and are much longer - and despite all that the 49er is still a nosediver and still a bit slow in light winds, all else being equal.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Dad worked with Keith on this one at 4m.



    http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/Haze/haze01.shtm

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    We had that Opti on another thread...the sailor is under 70kg.

    There are foiling retrofits for the Aero and the Laser though.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    The Glide Free kit is beautifully done. Boats carrying it are slower in most conditions than a standard Laser and it only works in fairly specific conditions. The boat in the vid is being sailed by someone who has finished in the top 4 in world titles. It can be really hard work to get foiling in gusty conditions. It can also work beautifully reaching in moderate breezes (14 knots or so?) and the boat feels surprisingly small when foiling compared to a Moth. Obviously the Laser is a much bigger boat, but it doesn't feel as big as one would expect when foiling compared to a Moth in my very limited experience.

    It's interesting, though, to note the way the physics work. To foil well you need very low aerodynamic drag which is why most vids show a Laser Radial rather than the standard big rig Laser. But to get going on the foils you need to reach a certain speed, which normally requires power. Moths foil incredibly well because even before foiling arrived they were an extremely low drag machine, which therefore needed a very low drag rig that adapts to foiling really well. On the other hand, the standard foiling beach cats like the carbon Nacras are only gaining about 3% of speed through foils and are significantly slower than non-foilers in some winds because they have intrinsically higher drag in some situations. It seems like a marginal gain for the $$$$ and complexity, although I confess I haven't sailed a foiling cat.

    EDIT....Jeez, that vid ran through to the end, where it shows suggested vids on the same topic. It's sad to see that I really am that bald..... err, that slightly thin on top. :-(
    Last edited by Chris249; 10-04-2017 at 07:03 AM.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    The Spindrift is reputed to be unusually fast for what it is (i.e. a working tender).
    I am curious about what further speed potential the basic design might reveal once stripped of its utilitarian attributes.
    A few areas of interest for possible modification that one might consider:
    Build it a little lighter.
    Raise the seat tops to gunnel level for hiking out.
    Extend the hull bottom panels further forward to give a plumb stem, a finer entry and longer LWL.
    Reduce the rocker a little (since it will not be required to haul such heavy loads) and flatten the aft run (it is already pretty straight, it only has about 1/2" rocker between the daggerboard and transom).
    Deadrise at midship is about 10deg and remains so all the way to the transom. Is this optimal? The Dix Paper Jet has almost not deadrise at the transom...
    The Spindrift also has a skeg and near-full-length exterior keel batten which adds measurable wetted area and turbulence when making leeway. If these are only for hull protection and tracking while rowing, keel reinforcement could rather be added on the inside.

    If windward ability is of lesser importance than maximum speed on a reach, a larger, low aspect sail could replace the tall bermudan. I am sure that is part of the performance recipe for the Goose.
    These are just my amateur, speculative thoughts...

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    They may ‘just amature, speculative thoughts ‘

    But they are good thoughts

  20. #55

    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Some ideas:

    NZ moth (scow) http://www.sporty.co.nz/stewartsgull...lans-and-Rules

    There is also the DS12 catamaran (wood, free plans). But this is aimed more at kids. http://www.ctmd.com.au/ds12.php

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Quote Originally Posted by sailnstink View Post
    They get 12 knots out of Ozgooses. 12' Not sporty or fast looking.
    That was a couple of years back. Went to 12.9 then 13.8 and on this day when racing was cancelled I had 2 seconds at 18 knots. It was a raceday and the lulls were at around 25knots so we went out. But with the start boat out and a crash boat we decided some speed runs were in order. Video from crashboat.

    The first two records were on a tideless lake in Texas. The others on a tideless lake in the Philippines.

    I did three such nosedives on this day. No water in the boat and fingertip control which is a feature of canoes and squareboats ... boats with pointy noses and transoms may not fare so well as they tend to spear off in one direction or the other.


  22. #57
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    And the earlier 12 knot video. As you can see the sea state doesn't indicate a crazy wind.


  23. #58
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Off topic but....
    I do a bit of teaching of kids and adults to sail here in the UK under the RYA scheme.
    We teach kids single handed usually in Optimists and they then naturally continue and progress in the Optimist.
    We teach adults 2 or 3 trainees and an instructor in a Wayfarer or other big training boat. They then want to build on their skills and want to do this singlehandedly, there are very few boats that are suitable for this.

    the Oz goose and Oz / PD racer look like a great combination for Adult sail training.

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  24. #59
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    The Reverso is clearly a sophisticated and of the moment design but this appears to have been achieved by paying a heavy price in terms of weight. I also doubt it can be as fast as the video suggests based on sail area to weight ratio and how bendy the mast must be.
    Sailing World recently posted a longer, faster video of Reverso AIR "on a tear" at https://www.facebook.com/sailingworl...5221650078871/ based on it's boat of the year award. Maybe it will go on a diet later. Weeks after I bought a Dinghygo, they came out with a much lighter version that changed the glassed plywood seat, mast steps, daggerboard, rudder (and transom?) to nonwood. The station wagon I am getting to contain the nested Reverso will also save backache getting my deflated Dinghygo over my old hatchback's raised lip.
    Last edited by rudderless; 10-18-2017 at 12:18 AM.

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