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Thread: Fast sailer 12' or under.

  1. #1
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    Default Fast sailer 12' or under.

    I'm close to finishing my first wooden boat build (B&B Spindrift) and am looking for ideas for my next build.

    I'm looking for something speed oriented 12 or under. I was originally thinking a beach cat but the ones I found start at 14'. Canoes are even longer and I can't find any plans for a wooden windsurfer. I'm open to considering pretty much any ideas as far as they type of craft as long as it's sporty.

    thanks,
    Hugh

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Seems like the windsurfer question has been discussed here.
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ailboard-Plans

    Edit to add: Perhaps a Puddleduck or Oz Goose, with sporty sails and foils?
    Last edited by Jbtate3; 09-20-2017 at 11:14 PM. Reason: New thought

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Define "fast" and "sporty".

    There are plans for modern "low rider" (ie non foiling) Moths that are wooden and have just 12inch wide hulls. They are about as fast as an International Canoe or 505. Look here for more info.

    The next fastest practical boat would be a Cherub. Look here for more info. The fastest of the two breeds of Cherub is quicker than a 29er, I think. The Australian Cherub sticks to older rules and is much slower than the 29er in light winds and upwind, but a fantastic boat downwind in 12 knots +.

    Perhaps more practical is the Farr 3.7; google the NZ association. It's a lovely 12' singlehander with trapeze. Not as fast as a Laser in light winds but great in a breeze. Failing that, the UK National 12 is a two-person option that is really quick in lighter winds; it would beat a Vanguard 15.

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Dabchick designed by Jack Koper in South Africa will satisfy the 'sporty' requirement.
    If you are fit and reasonably agile, you might get 20knots boatspeed out of one - most teenagers do.
    It's a bit like a sailboard that you sit on.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k554e8yvY2M

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    I watched a guy try to sail one of these. He never successfully got aboard without capsizing or falling off. It takes a skill level similar to free mounting a unicycle
    Elect a clown expect a circus

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Actually, sailing an early foiling Moth is easier in some ways than sailing the last of the non-foilers and I understand that the new boats are just as easy. They have basically the same amount of hull stability (ie almost none, since the wingtip beam is around 8ft and the hull beam is about 1ft) as the non-foilers, but the larger surface area on the foils basically holds the boat upright (or more upright than in a boat without them; everything's relative). You can also notice the dampening/stabilising effect of foils when you sail the foiling Laser. In the case of the Moth, it makes it easier to get the foiler going than the non-foiler.

    The hardest Moths of all to get going were the late '70s/early '80s fat skiffs, which were so wedge-shaped that if they heeled, they'd just turn no matter what you did with the rudder. The narrow boats track straight when heeled. The modern rigs are so much lighter that stability is not that much reduced.

    It probably does depend what else you've sailed.
    Last edited by Chris249; 09-22-2017 at 05:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Actually, sailing an early foiling Moth is easier in some ways than sailing the last of the non-foilers and I understand that the new boats are just as easy. They have basically the same amount of hull stability (ie almost none, since the wingtip beam is around 8ft and the hull beam is about 1ft) as the non-foilers, but the larger surface area on the foils basically holds the boat upright (or more upright than in a boat without them; everything's relative). You can also notice the dampening/stabilising effect of foils when you sail the foiling Laser. In the case of the Moth, it makes it easier to get the foiler going than the non-foiler.

    The hardest Moths of all to get going were the late '70s/early '80s fat skiffs, which were so wedge-shaped that if they heeled, they'd just turn no matter what you did with the rudder. The narrow boats track straight when heeled. The modern rigs are so much lighter that stability is not that much reduced.

    It probably does depend what else you've sailed.
    I have no doubt that sailing a foiler may be easy, but getting up onto the boat and getting it moving was the obstacle from what I saw
    Elect a clown expect a circus

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Short and fast

    -Dave

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    I presume you want a wooden hull and single handed to get the speed you require.
    These are just outside your 12' limit but they do offer speed and are build from plywood.
    Farr 3.7 - baby rocket ship with trapeze. http://www.3-7class.org.nz/
    Dudley Dix Paperjet - 3 rig choices, build kits available, 2 handed and single handed. https://www.dixdesign.com/paperjet.htm
    Remember the secret to going fast - build it light (exactly to plan is a good starting point) and hang the biggest rig you can on it!

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    The UFO really is the ticket. I wonder when (and if) home-build plans will become available???
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Sportiness isn't a matter of speed. If speed were your goal, you wouldn't be sailing, you'd be buying an airline ticket.

    For the feel of sportiness, I'd go with a classic Moth, something like a Mistral. It's not an easy boat to sail, but it's fast for its size and easier than a foiler Moth.

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Sportiness isn't a matter of speed. If speed were your goal, you wouldn't be sailing, you'd be buying an airline ticket.

    For the feel of sportiness, I'd go with a classic Moth, something like a Mistral. It's not an easy boat to sail, but it's fast for its size and easier than a foiler Moth.

    Can't agree more, I sailed an IC for years - lots of speed, lots of adrenaline but very little sport. It was a small fleet and I was out gunned financially and ability wise. I have now moved to a twelve foot Streaker- fantastic boat and a good fleet where I sail so I get lots of sport. I would love to sail a classic moth but I'd be all on my lonesome and not much sport. If you truly want sport join the fleet with the best sailors / most boats even if that means crewing.

    I presume by sporty you actually mean fast. Personally I don't think I'd ever build a boat just for speed. Sailing at speed without competition either quickly becomes boring or you have to keep pushing yourself to sail in ever more challenging conditions which ultimately limits your sailing opportunities.

    I have very few regrets in my life, one of the biggest would be not switching to a slower more competitive fleet sooner.




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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    My friend Carter Pyle designed the "Kite" dinghy, which is 11'7" in length, as an Olympic trainer for the Finn. I had one at one time. It was a stunning performer and could be surfed in the open ocean. It is a simple, fast, planing dinghy that was molded of fiber glass. I see no reason that it could not be built of cold molded epoxy laminated wood veneers. Although the boat can perform well for one person, it is better to have a second crew member to adjust and balance the boat when sailing in winds over fifteen or twenty knots. The bendy unstayed rig is a lot of fun to experiment with. A full batten rig would be very interesting on this high performance hull! The Kite is unsinkable and self bailing as well! The boats sometimes come up for sale. Some hulls can be purchased very reasonably.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kite_(sailboat)
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 09-23-2017 at 07:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    The UFO really is the ticket. I wonder when (and if) home-build plans will become available???
    There aren't many amateurs that could build that to the needed weight.

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    My friend Carter Pyle designed the "Kite" dinghy, which is 11'7" in length, as an Olympic trainer for the Finn. I had one at one time. It was a stunning performer and could be surfed in the open ocean. It is a simple, fast, planing dinghy that was molded of fiber glass. I see no reason that it could not be built of cold molded epoxy laminated wood veneers. Although the boat can perform well for one person, it is better to have a second crew member to adjust and balance the boat when sailing in winds over fifteen or twenty knots. The bendy unstayed rig is a lot of fun to experiment with. A full batten rig would be very interesting on this high performance hull! The Kite is unsinkable and self bailing as well! The boats sometimes come up for sale. Some hulls can be purchased very reasonably.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kite_(sailboat)
    Jay
    Very interesting, over on our side of the pond we are believe the OK to be the Finn trainer
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_(dinghy). It is still very active after 60 years and was originally built of wood. It is a tad longer at 13 feet.
    I have to say I like the look of your Kite a great deal

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    We may need to get a better definition of what the OP means by "speed oriented" and "sporty". There's such an enormous difference in personal and national standards of speed that we are really a bunch of nations divided by a common language in this respect.

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    They get 12 knots out of Ozgooses. 12' Not sporty or fast looking.

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    My friend Carter Pyle designed the "Kite" dinghy, which is 11'7" in length, as an Olympic trainer for the Finn. I had one at one time. It was a stunning performer and could be surfed in the open ocean. It is a simple, fast, planing dinghy that was molded of fiber glass. I see no reason that it could not be built of cold molded epoxy laminated wood veneers. Although the boat can perform well for one person, it is better to have a second crew member to adjust and balance the boat when sailing in winds over fifteen or twenty knots. The bendy unstayed rig is a lot of fun to experiment with. A full batten rig would be very interesting on this high performance hull! The Kite is unsinkable and self bailing as well! The boats sometimes come up for sale. Some hulls can be purchased very reasonably.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kite_(sailboat)
    Jay
    When I was a kid and the nearby club was considering a 'next boat up' from the wooden Optimist prams I was SO eager for them to go with Kites! They considered OK dinghies also but at the time most were kit built, not something the club members wanted.

    -1.jpg

    And yes, Kites are still to be found on CL and elsewhere. If only I were a kid again, I'd snap one up. More versatile and fun than a Laser. Wood masts and booms. Maybe for the grandkids....
    Last edited by rbgarr; 09-24-2017 at 11:41 AM.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Tink, I am sorry to say, I have never sailed an OK Dinghy! Looks to be a good performer, especally with that Fin mast and sail!

    Thanks rbgarr for the post on the Kite.

    I know where my old boat is. I think I will check it out and see if it will still float. Might even build a bat wing full batten sail for it. We used to play tennis ball tag with the boats after racing. I can honestly say that the Kite dinghy is more fun than a barrel of happy sea otters!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 09-24-2017 at 02:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    The UFO really is the ticket. I wonder when (and if) home-build plans will become available???
    The UFO has many bits that are interdependent and would be hard to work out in home building. Foils are the first place, and I am pretty sure that all foilers need highly engineered parts. The rig is also pretty sophisticated with the UFO team developing a free standing rotating carbon mast that can be built using a sail board tube.

    Given the size requirements of the OP, ( under 12') and home construction, the OK is a foot too long but it is designed for home building and is a blast to sail. The Kite unfortunately looks like it is not a home build. A Classic Moth is the only design that has been mentioned that is under 12' For something completely different have a look at Platt Montfort's Blivit.
    Ben Fuller
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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    There are a lot of Kite hulls laying around that can be picked up very reasonably. It is unfortunate that the Lazer became popular and replaced the Kite for YC inter club racing! The Kite is really a very versatile boat and a hoot to sail in strong winds.

    I once took mine out in a Santa Ana wind off of Newport Beach CA. This is a rare wind blows through the canyons from the Deserts and often can gust up to forty or fifty kts! It was a warm wind and I was in swimming trunks. The swells were running about twelve feet with a nasty chop. Sometimes the Kite was becalmed in the troughs and some times it fairly flew from one wave crest to another. Several times I pitch poled the boat into the back side of a wave ahead of the one I was surfing. Even though I was nearly hiking off the transom the entire boat would sail under and turn turtle! I came over one big roller and there was an aluminum bass boat with two scared guys in it. They had gone out to go fishing, before the wind hit and had run out of gas. They were on their way to Guam if they didn't get help!

    Fortunatly, the Coast Guard had closed the harbor and the C.G. cutter was patroling the entrance. I made a fast tack and set out for their position at the jetty where I informed them of the situation. The commanding officer told me that the aluminum boat lit up their radar screen like a flare on the water and they took off and took the two wet flat landers on to the cutter. They asked me if I needed any help myself and I answered that I was on my way into the harbor for a beer as the salt water had made me thirsty. That was one hell of a sail!
    Jay

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    When I was a kid and the nearby club was considering a 'next boat up' from the wooden Optimist prams I was SO eager for them to go with Kites! They considered OK dinghies also but at the time most were kit built, not something the club members wanted.
    And yes, Kites are still to be found on CL and elsewhere. If only I were a kid again, I'd snap one up. More versatile and fun than a Laser. Wood masts and booms. Maybe for the grandkids....
    I remember being sucked into the Laser hype back in the late 70s and owning but quickly selling one in the 2000's. For the last couple of years I have sailed them for a week each summer and though in big winds and waves they are fun they have many undesirable features and characteristics.

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Ya Tink there is no place for a beer cooler in a Lazer!
    Jay

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Quote Originally Posted by sailnstink View Post
    They get 12 knots out of Ozgooses. 12' Not sporty or fast looking.
    Mirrors have gone faster (12.8) and would be much faster overall. And if a Mirror has gone 12.8 there's probably some Opti somewhere that has reached 12, which indicates how difficult it all is when we have such varied definition of "fast" and "sporty".

    Here's the Cherub; 12 foot long; fits the same age bracket as the 420, can be home built;



    It's not extreme; it's a kid's boat but it blasts past the world Flying Dutchman champion and world-class 505s downwind in breeze. So don't we need to know where the OP fits between the extremes before we have any idea what he really wants?
    Last edited by Chris249; 09-24-2017 at 05:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    I would want a 12ft Goat Island Skiff but Mr Storer has said on this forum he is unhappy with his sketches so far. So what about his S12 club

    https://www.storerboatplans.com/boat...racing-dinghy/

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    In my experience, the OK dinghy is a fine boat to sail for the athletic 'soloist' but not very 'comfortable' for a regular sailor (low boom, a bit more complicated to rig, and dodgy to board via the bow and stern than simpler boats).

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Wow, all those strings! It's a Cat's cradle with a place for a beer cooler!
    Jay

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Wow, all those strings! It's a Cat's cradle with a place for a beer cooler!
    Jay
    The one I had was considerably simpler but that was back in the 70s.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Thanks for all the responses. If I could build a UFO that would be ideal but it isn't an option. A slalom windsurfing board that could be converted to foiling would be very cool also but I can't find any plans for wooden boards. I weigh 200lbs so I'm over the recommended weight for a Farr 3.7. The Cherub looks like it has potential. The Moth would also fulfill the speed requirements but the lack of stability is concerning.

    The actual speed of the boat is less important than the feeling of speed it also has to be something I can build out of wood. It also needs to be something I can carry on a 38' yacht which is why it needs to be 12' or less.

    I really like the idea of a beach cat and the 10' minicat 310 has a load capacity of over 500lbs I wish I could find something similar with wooden hulls.

    thanks again,
    Hugh

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Ha! Mentioning that you want to carry the boat aboard another might have helped!
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Have you looked at the PT Spear? Not as fast or sporty as the classic Moths, but a more practical tender, and based on having watched them sail, fairly quick.

    http://ptwatercraft.com/ptwatercraft/PT11_Spear.html

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    Quote Originally Posted by roam View Post
    I really like the idea of a beach cat and the 10' minicat 310 has a load capacity of over 500lbs I wish I could find something similar with wooden hulls.
    Here is the picture that convinced me the Minicat 310 is mainly for a small person. Imagine ducking under that sail with a few pounds of a gut or an extra person. I think you would want to be under half the weight limit for speed and also stability when you switch sides before a counterbalancing wind asserts itself. Their 420 is a speed demon in a small pair of bags, but apparently you want to keep it assembled. I include a picture of the more accommodative Ducky 13 cat.



    Here is a picture of Shell Boats Swifty 12 wooden kit, which seems to have a semblance of a planing hull and recently went to a higher aspect sail. They never show it in any strong kind of wind, so I don't know if their shallow twin skeg design is suitable for that.



    Lastly, for a quick thrill inflatable, you can consider the jumbo 2 person windsurfer which converts to a sit-down PLANING sailboat. This is a high pressure version of their low pressure Multisport. I am having a lot of trouble with it, so could sell you a used one cheap Video:



    P.S. Probably more suitable than the Swifty would be the non-nested version of PT11 wooden kit. There is a great video of one surfing a fierce cat's paw on the water, but all I could find is this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZZ4sIvynWM
    Last edited by rudderless; 09-26-2017 at 12:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Fast sailer 12' or under.

    I guess we are almost looking for the same boat...

    Like the S12 and just built a PT-11 (sort of).
    Portability is my main concern.

    There is another very sporty inflatable catamaran. The Grabner Happy Cat. Only 50kg and fast. Saw some here and one in Croatia in really heavy winds.
    No wood of course.

    Maybe something bigger if it really nests? That's ~1m short... probably can be done in wood.


    Some other boats I am looking at are the Truc12 and the ZEN. No plans available though.

    The last option for thrill I am thinking about is non wooden...an inflatable foiling Windsurfboard.
    Last edited by heavyweather; 10-02-2017 at 03:21 PM.

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