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Thread: Painting Dynel

  1. #1
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    Default Painting Dynel

    I have laid dynel on the decks of my Friendship sloop and only partially filled the weave in order to provide slip-resistance. What kind of roller have folks used to paint the surface of the rough fabric without filling in the depressions and diminishing the roughness?

    Bruce Brown

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Painting Dynel

    I can't imagine anyone using a roller for a job like that. (Or any paint job on a boat, for that matter, although the "roll and tip" crew will claim otherwise.) Use a relatively stiff standard paint brush, not one of those floppy things made for limp-wristed painters. Use an oil-based flat paint which will chalk off over time and not build up between the weave with repeated re-paintings. The paint should be thinned when applying and may take two or three coats to cover. Don't put it on thick or you will fill the weave quickly. (The wet paint will only settle down between the weave in puddles if applied to generously.)

    If you can't get oil-based paint, use a flat latex, but be sure to thin it well because it will tend to fill the weave far more than oil-based paint will, especially if applied too thickly.

    After applying the first coat (or even before) you might want to lightly sand off the "fuzz" on the Dynel that will be apparent when the epoxy has cured. This treatment will, when painted, yield a surface that looks like a new canvas deck. The "fuzz" looks a bit weird.

    Expect to be surprised by the amount of paint that you end up using. Keep in mind that a rough surface simply has more surface area to coat than a smooth surface does.'

    You will find that a roller isn't going to penetrate the rough surface and would just lay down far too much paint. You want a brush with bristles stiff enough to allow you to work the paint fully into the weave (but thinly with the paint.) You'll have to "work it in," rather than 'flowing it on."

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Painting Dynel

    I have had good luck rolling and tipping without filling the weave on dynel to excess. I use Benjamin Moore Porch and Patio latex. Wears like iron. Apply sparingly roll out well, then tip.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Painting Dynel

    Rolling and tipping is all about choosing the right roller and rolling the paint on thin enough. The technique was first promoted by the Gougeon Brothers for use in their shops. They wanted an application method which would produce results with smoothness rivaling spraying, without the need to wear a space suit to protect yourself - especially when applying linear polyurethane paints which are quite toxic when atomized. Quite simply, it works and works very well with plenty of examples to prove the fact using a variety of paint types. Regardless of what some traditionalists say about the technique, the results are pretty hard to argue with. Obviously, there are places on a boat where it just isn't practical, but for big open areas, it may certainly work very well.

    With a thin foam or short nap roller and when rolling the paint out well, the risk of overfilling the weave isn't really an issue. Plus, many of the current floor enamels and acrylics really tend to shrink down thin and tight to the surface as they dry. This one has True Value polyurethane floor enamel over unfilled fiberglass cloth on the inside which is going on 40 years old and doing fine. The tan base coat for the exterior is recent and Behr Premium (Home Depot) Epoxy One Part, satin, Concrete and Garage Floor Paint, rolled and tipped. It went on very nicely and is quite tough. I wouldn't hesitate to use it on faux canvas decking.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Painting Dynel

    I won't argue with Todd. Different strokes (or rolls,) as they say. It's true, "roll and tip" may be a useful option on "wide open spaces" as opposed to spraying seriously toxic paints like LPU. Experienced painters generally find they can work faster and with less mess using a brush and get results equal (or better) to a spray job.

    That said, I fail to see what possible advantage "roll and tip" may have on a rough surface. The whole point of it is to get a proper gloss coat down and that's not going to happen on a rough surface.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Painting Dynel

    I have made a few boats with cloth covered decks. Canvas and dynel. Of course, I'm talking about small boats, with a few square feet of deck.

    I have done pretty much as Bob recommends, using water clean up porch and floor paints. A thin, thin coat brushed well in with a shortish bristled brush is what I used, followed by a few coats of progressively less thin paint.

    I think a brush may be better at working in the first coat, but after that it'd be a shooting match. After years of painting for money, I'd as soon never touch a roller again, thank you.

    Still, they are very handy tools for covering large surfaces. Mind, though they can and do spatter and spit a bit.

    Peace,
    Robert

    P.S. I've made more than a few boats completely covered in canvas or polyester cloth. On these types, too, I found the brush easiest to get a good saturation on the primary coat. It seems to help work the paint into the cloth a little better. But, this isn't proper brushing, I mean, this is angry, dauber, primer, mashing the brush and roughly over working every area. Paint like a little kid. Hehe.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Painting Dynel

    It's true, "roll and tip" may be a useful option on "wide open spaces"
    I'm talking about as opposed to trying to roll and tip a railing or other intricate or convoluted part.

    Experienced painters generally find they can work faster and with less mess using a brush and get results equal (or better) to a spray job.
    Maybe you can (I haven't seen any of your work posted here) but I'd wager that 95% of the folks on the forum can't.

    That said, I fail to see what possible advantage "roll and tip" may have on a rough surface. The whole point of it is to get a proper gloss coat down and that's not going to happen on a rough surface.
    On a modestly textured surface like unfilled Dynel or fiberglass cloth, there really isn't enough texture to present a problem. The process is very different from the mental concept that some may have of something similar to a big furry roller dripping with thick latex which you might use to paint your living room wall. It is a much more precise application using much less paint in thin layers and a very fine-napped fuzz or thin foam roller (I always use the Gougeon yellow foam ones, either whole or cut down to a narrower width because I have them on hand for epoxy work and they work great for rolling and tipping). The thin roller will reach down far enough into the texture to get paint in there without filling the cavities. You do want to really roll it out well, but not with too much force as it will tend to cause excessive tiny bubbles that you'll need to knock down with the tipping brush.

    You continue to bash rolling and tipping at every possible opportunity. Do you actually have any serious experience doing it? The main advantage of rolling and tipping anything (paint, varnish or resin) is achieving uniform coating thickness - more uniform than you, or anybody else (and especially people like me) can get with a brush. Uniform coating thickness is the best way possible to avoid runs, drips, and sags. In fact, when rolling and tipping common boat paints like Brightside and Easypoxy, it isn't unusual for the first coat to be thin enough that it looks like crap. The real magic happens with the following coats. I've never had any splatter problems rolling and tipping. If you do, you are either using the wrong roller, the wrong paint or too much pressure or roller speed.

    On real cotton canvas, I would certainly rather use a brush because there needs to be some fiber saturation going on, but for surface coating on epoxy, weave-textured or not, rolling and tipping gives me far better results. That's more important to me than feeling like I'm some sort of hot-shot traditional boat painter who can do it all with a brush. If you are, and can, good on you, and if your boats look better than mine, I'll freely sing your praises as a boat painter. Despite having brush, roller and spray equipment on hand, I'm not a great boat painter and rolling and tipping has drastically improved my results.

    Brightside, straight out of the can, rolled and tipped out in the exposed gravel driveway of my former house. Not perfect, but I'm not complaining.



    Varnish, rolled and tipped over unfilled 7.5 oz. fiberglass cloth texture on the inside.



    I used to really dread painting and varnishing boats because I was always disappointed by my results. Starting with my Starboat, where I began on one side of the bow stem and rolled and tipped Captains Varnish over the epoxy coated mahogany veneer all the way down one side, around the transom and back up the other side to the bow with no drips or sags while literally holding a roller in one hand and the tipping brush in the other, I was sold on the technique. I still can't say I look forward to big painting jobs, but now it's just one more thing to do.

    Last edited by Todd Bradshaw; 09-21-2017 at 07:11 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Painting Dynel

    thanks to everyone. I got my question answered. Now go to bed and NO MORE FIGHTING! It'll only end in tears.

    Bruce Brown

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    Default Re: Painting Dynel

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    I won't argue with Todd. Different strokes (or rolls,) as they say. It's true, "roll and tip" may be a useful option on "wide open spaces" as opposed to spraying seriously toxic paints like LPU. Experienced painters generally find they can work faster and with less mess using a brush and get results equal (or better) to a spray job.

    That said, I fail to see what possible advantage "roll and tip" may have on a rough surface. The whole point of it is to get a proper gloss coat down and that's not going to happen on a rough surface.
    gets the paint on the surface quickly, tipping evens it out. Not going for gloss on non skid. I usually use satin when doing dynel for non skid. Works for me, but i am usually happy with a work boat finish. I do the open cockpit on FESTIVUS every couple of years, mostly concerned about keeping up the UV protection.
    Last edited by Oldad; 09-21-2017 at 09:30 PM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Painting Dynel

    A single layer of dynel, left with the weave open to resemble cotton decks, may not even be waterproof.
    If it is not too late, I would encourage you to completely fill the weave of the first layer and fair it out. Then apply a second layer for the "effect" of cotton.
    bruce

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Painting Dynel

    Cleek, you're hilarious. Roll and tip, the Devil's own tool.
    Rolling or tipping a Friendship deck - could call that either way depending on the number of obstructions.

    I'm a big fan of the compact 'hot dog' foam rollers and smaller trays, seldom use the larger rollers.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Painting Dynel

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    Cleek, you're hilarious. Roll and tip, the Devil's own tool.
    Rolling or tipping a Friendship deck - could call that either way depending on the number of obstructions.

    I'm a big fan of the compact 'hot dog' foam rollers and smaller trays, seldom use the larger rollers.
    Oh, guys, I just love to watch everybody get their panties in a bunch when I make fun of "rolling and tipping."

    Whatever works for somebody is fine by me. Over the years, I learned to paint pretty well by making mistakes. Although, I did have a fair amount of coaching from pros along the way, I must confess. My closest cousins owned one of the largest painting and decorating outfits in the SF Bay Area when I was growing up, and still do. I remember as a kid when they painted our house one weekend ( a "side job" for the union shop... a union rule exception for "family jobs.") Those were the days when painters used big 8" brushes and buckets to paint house walls. Airless rigs weren't around and rollers had just been invented. They still couldn't use rollers because they were forbidden to use them back then on union jobs. Rollers were too efficient and that meant less jobs for painters! (And the crafts were always worried about the then growing trend of DIY that threatened to put them out of business.) After a while, the painters union had no choice but to relent and allow rollers. The pros used them then, of course, but a lot of the old timers still claimed that when they figured the time spent cutting in and cleaning up the splatter and the hassles with the scaffolding in the way, they could do a job as fast with a brush as with a roller. I'm sure many did, but I'll concede that some of them had brains addled from the solvent fumes they inhaled day in and day out, if not from the contents of the pint hip flasks they carried in the back pockets of their white painters' overalls!

    For me, the satisfaction of doing something as an amateur is to a fair extent an exercise in learning how to do it the way the pros do it. Today, some yards roll and tip for a number of good reasons. They often can't spray the toxic two-part coatings outside of a spray booth and without a lot of environmental gear as a matter of law. That gives the edge to rolling and tipping, I suppose. It's also a technique that is easier to teach a bunch of relatively unskilled low wage workers than to pay journeymen and masters to do the same job. But really, particularly for amateurs like most of us, rolling and tipping is the best way to get a decent result if you aren't an experienced painter. The manufacturers probably like to see people roll and tip because they are less likely to screw it up and blame the bad results on the paint companies, too.

    The real secret to painting is learning how to condition the paint. Once you get the hang of adding thinners and conditioners to suit the product and the environment in which you're applying it, spreading it becomes a much, much less daunting task. If you can spread mayonnaise evenly on your sandwich, you're probably three quarters of the way to being able to spread properly conditioned paint evenly with a brush. Properly conditioned paint will "lay down" perfectly if you don't apply it too thickly. If you apply it too thinly, you'll take care of that on the next couple of coats, which is as it should be. A number of thin coats is always better than a lesser number of thick coats. And, with a brush, it's a lot easier to work on a staging plank holding a can of paint in one hand and a brush in the other, than to hold a roller tray without spilling it... but I digress...

    As they say, "whatever floats your boat."

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Painting Dynel

    System 3 LPU Orcas white and 4" Home Depot foam rollers.

    IMG_2043.jpg
    Last edited by Reynard38; 10-27-2017 at 07:52 AM.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Painting Dynel

    That's a bigga boat to be hanging from the overhead!
    Steve B
    TraditionalSmallCraftAssociation
    DowneastTSCA.org

    TraditionalSmallCraft.com
    RIVUS 16' Melonseed

    "If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." E. B. White

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Painting Dynel

    Quote Originally Posted by SBrookman View Post
    That's a bigga boat to be hanging from the overhead!
    Well you do typically roll a ceiling right?
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

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