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Thread: Pattern Photos for Peter

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    Can you educate me as to why one end of the cross-beam (shank?) is often bent like yours? I have a 50 lb fisherman, but the cross-beam is just straight. No fid either, its held with a heavy galvanized cotter pin right through the cross-beam.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    The bent end is so that you can fold the stock ("cross-beam") to lie flat along the shank (the upright) without removing the stock from the shank, so that all the parts remain together rather than needing to be kept track of separately. In the later photos in post #25, with the stock and shank lying parallel, the two elements of the anchor are still attached to each other.

    The anchor is currently out in the shop, but I'll try and remember to get a couple detail shots for you tomorrow, if no one else posts a good illustration first.

    Larger Herreshoff anchors, and the Luke and ABI knock-offs, are able to be taken completely apart into three pieces. As heavy as they are, this makes them *much* easier to move around and to stow. On these, the stock is completely straight, and is typically drilled for a big cotter/small clevis pin to keep it in place --so it sounds like that's what you have?

    Alex

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    I found a good photo of an anchor folded up, courtesy of Google:



    The ball is just a stopper, to keep the stock from sliding all the way out of the shank.

    Alex

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitsligo View Post
    Keeping things in perspective, were I standing on a dock holding my boat's bow line it would take a lot of wind to produce enough resistance on the boat to pull her out of my hands --in other words, it would take a lot of wind to create enough resistance to exceed the strain I alone was putting on the anchor today. Yes, there are other considerations --is she wiggling the anchor loose by hunting?, is wave action / other boats' wakes shock-loading the anchor?-- but for general good weather use, I'm feeling pretty good about this new hook.

    Alex
    Interesting stuff.

    For the last few seasons I've been laying out two anchors attached with a warpreeve that I read about some years ago. Though you set a shorter scope your swinging circle is reduced as well as the angle of pull on both anchors. The chance of tearing out from a 180 degree wind shift is lessened as well. It's a boon in a crowded anchorage even without much wind. My "bower" is a 17-lb fisherman with about 12' of chain and the other is an 8-lb Danforth with about 6' of chain. My boat weighs in at around 900 pounds in cruising mode with me aboard. The only extra thing you need is a swivel at the end of the chain on the main rode so the line can rotate through the warpreeve as the boat meanders with the wind and tide shifts.

    Since you have two good anchors anyway...
    Last edited by darroch; 01-02-2018 at 09:25 PM. Reason: grammar

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    I just did a bit of searching for "warpreeve," and aside from one membership-required website, I didn't find a lot. It sounds like a less-tangly variant on Bahamian mooring? If so, I can see how it could be a good way to go. I'd need to start schlepping around a lot more chain, though: I use an all-fiber rode, which would probably not be so good in such a high-chafe system. No matter how good they are, two good anchors are of limited use when they're not securely affixed to the boat...

    Wouldn't that just stink? Two nice bronze anchors sitting on the bottom, their rodes sawn through by tide swing. Aiieee!

    Might need to find a shipmate who knows how to scuba.

    I'm afraid I don't get around much, Darroch; what's your boat? Sail and oar, judging by the weight. A more sane way to go than my 19' 3000# lady.

    Alex

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    I don't wish to derail this thread, Alex. Would you prefer I start a new one?

    Actually, having thought about it overnight, I should start a new thread rather than mess up this one.
    Last edited by darroch; 01-03-2018 at 12:06 PM.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    Hm. Good thought on thread-derailment --though I wouldn't be surprised if this thread is about played out anyway. I might post some photos of the anchor if I again take it down to the beach and drag it around, but I'm not sure when or if I'll do that.

    If you feel like starting a new thread, I'm sure I'll swing by!

    Alex

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitsligo View Post
    Hm. Good thought on thread-derailment --though I wouldn't be surprised if this thread is about played out anyway. I might post some photos of the anchor if I again take it down to the beach and drag it around, but I'm not sure when or if I'll do that.

    If you feel like starting a new thread, I'm sure I'll swing by!

    Alex
    Did you do it in the water or above the tide line?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  9. #44
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitsligo View Post
    Either the lanyard is down at the crown holding the stock folded or, when the anchor is stocked, it's girth hitched to the ring. Either way, the fid isn't likely to wander off.

    But yes, good point. The primary function of the lanyard is keep the fid with the anchor.

    Alex
    Do it this way and there is absolutely no chance of dropping the fid overboard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  10. #45
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    Did you do it in the water or above the tide line?
    Above the waterline, below high tideline. On the one hand, the anchor would be lighter under water and thus have less setting power, but on the other hand, the damp gravel on the beach was looser and offered less resistance to tear-out. I don't swim, let alone scuba or snorkel, and the water here is far too cloudy for a submerged test anyway, so my options were limited. Soooo... Hard to say which would be a more relevant test. Almost all the tests I've seen on YouTube have been dry-beach tests, so I felt all right about it, for what it was.

    Either way is, of course, "laboratory conditions," and won't definitively prove anything other than the anchor will tip, set, and hold on a gravel/sand/shell beach when being dragged around on short (6:1 to 4:1) scope (I prefer 7:1) by a pessimistic owner. That said, I was pleased at how well it did, and look forward to trying it "under fire."

    Do it this way and there is absolutely no chance of dropping the fid overboard.
    That's true, and what you show is a good system. What I do when the anchor is aboard the boat, when I'm making it ready for use, is girth-hitch the fid-lanyard to the ring at the top of the shank, leaving enough slack for the fid to drop into its mortise and the safety shackle to secure the fid. So far, on other anchors, no lost fids or troubles of any kind (knock wood). I'm pretty happy with it.

    Alex

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitsligo View Post
    I just did a bit of searching for "warpreeve," and aside from one membership-required website, I didn't find a lot. It sounds like a less-tangly variant on Bahamian mooring?
    Not very sexy, and probably not worth an entire thread, except to anchor-talk aficionados...

    warpreeve.jpg

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitsligo View Post
    Above the waterline, below high tideline. On the one hand, the anchor would be lighter under water and thus have less setting power, but on the other hand, the damp gravel on the beach was looser and offered less resistance to tear-out. I don't swim, let alone scuba or snorkel, and the water here is far too cloudy for a submerged test anyway, so my options were limited. Soooo... Hard to say which would be a more relevant test. Almost all the tests I've seen on YouTube have been dry-beach tests, so I felt all right about it, for what it was.

    Alex
    Unless your beach is very steep too you only have to paddle to drop the anchor in inches of water. On a calm day obviously.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  13. #48
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    Not very sexy, and probably not worth an entire thread, except to anchor-talk aficionados...
    Perhaps, but it's a nice tangent for the thread. Do I understand correctly that you snare one rode with the becket hitch and lead the other rode through the eye?

    Unless your beach is very steep too you only have to paddle to drop the anchor in inches of water. On a calm day obviously.
    And having thought about it for a couple days, to where my curiosity is starting to poke me, I may eventually do just that. My friend with the beach is probably game --he's one of the few people I know who don't reach for the BIG butterfly net when I show up with a project or an experiment.

    In the meantime, I just discovered a potential feature of the new anchor: The shank fits into the bow fairleads and, when pushed aft as far as it will go, locks in place. I'll need to do something to prevent chafe on the bowsprit (current thought is a patch of carefully sized and positioned leather sewn around the bowsprit, like an oar leather) and under the port fluke, which will be resting on a sweep (when cruising the sweeps stow with their blades tucked under the bury of the bowsprit), but this could be a good way to stow the anchor while under way.

    Pushed aft, the swell of the shank at the top end locks it into place in the fairlead:



    In place:



    It may turn out to be easier to just lay it along side the bowsprit, with one arm around the heel (sadly, it won't fit under the heel, I don't think), and lash it down, but it's an interesting possibility for jogging between berths. I'd rather not screw down any more hardware than I absolutely need to, too, so it could be a good way to avoid anchor lashdown chocks.

    I'm still trying to decide what I think of the idea.

    Alex

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitsligo View Post
    Do I understand correctly that you snare one rode with the becket hitch and lead the other rode through the eye?
    Just so, with a slight twist. In my version the second (kedge) rode is seized back on itself with a rolling hitch (after first snaring the bower rode).

    Briefly, I drop the heavier fisherman with 100' of line in 20 - 30' of water, set the tripline, then row backwards till it sets. I then let go the Danforth and, making sure the bitter end is secured, pull on the main rode until the Danforth sets (on 50' of rode). Pull till you can't pull it out. Now ease off on both lines and give about 10' of slack.

    Now seize the main rode with the rope part of the warpreeve, as shown in the picture, and pass the kedge rode through the eyesplice. In my system I just seize the line back on itself with a rolling hitch backed up with a stopper knot and tighten the noose. I then drop the works overboard and down about 10' and seize it to the forward bitt.

    As I said, the only other thing you need is a swivel at the end of a bit of chain on the main rode. Now the main rode can swivel through the warpreeve and the boat swings in a tight circle without any hockling. The pull on both anchors is shared, the angle of pull is consistent, and the circle of swing is diminished.

    I have a couple of other hanks of rode in 200' and 100' lengths in case of deeper water. I've spent a lot of time at anchor with this setup and everything seems to work very well.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    Hey Alex, have you been watching Leo’s videos on restoring Tally Ho? In the segment where he goes to Port Townsend Foundry you can clearly see your anchor sitting on a workbench.
    If I got a kick seeing it there I’d imagine you would, too.


    It’s in this one, about 11 minutes in:

    Last edited by StevenBauer; 01-07-2018 at 10:28 AM.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    By gum, there it is at 11:04! WHAT FUN!

    You've got wicked sharp eyes, to spot it and recognize it.

    Yes, I definitely got a kick out of that. Many, many thanks.

    I suppose I ought to watch the entire video, too. Thank you for drawing my attention to it.

    Alex

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitsligo View Post
    In the meantime, I just discovered a potential feature of the new anchor: The shank fits into the bow fairleads and, when pushed aft as far as it will go, locks in place. I'll need to do something to prevent chafe on the bowsprit (current thought is a patch of carefully sized and positioned leather sewn around the bowsprit, like an oar leather) and under the port fluke, which will be resting on a sweep (when cruising the sweeps stow with their blades tucked under the bury of the bowsprit), but this could be a good way to stow the anchor while under way.

    Pushed aft, the swell of the shank at the top end locks it into place in the fairlead:



    In place:



    It may turn out to be easier to just lay it along side the bowsprit, with one arm around the heel (sadly, it won't fit under the heel, I don't think), and lash it down, but it's an interesting possibility for jogging between berths. I'd rather not screw down any more hardware than I absolutely need to, too, so it could be a good way to avoid anchor lashdown chocks.

    I'm still trying to decide what I think of the idea.

    Alex
    I think leathering is a good idea. I'd like to see what you come up with.
    (btw - my boat is an Alaska)

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    A novel use for a fairlead Alex !
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  19. #54
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    A lot depends on just how easily accessible the anchor really is, when stowed in that fashion, especially once the jib/jibboom is in place, but it shows promise. Further experimentation will definitely happen, but it might need to wait until warmer weather and/or the boat is in the water.

    Now my mind is already working on what might be the next piece of bronze "boat-jewelry" I could pattern up. Hmm...

    Alex

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    i enjoy seeing your pattern work too
    i know you expressly said you weren't really interested in deck mounted chocks, but i had to show off this old Wilcox-Crittenden set i found at the antiques shop. never seen another set like 'em.
    i'm amazed they stayed together just knocking about separately all these years..

    i took a chance for $20 and they fit the old anchor my dad has perfectly.. is it a Herreshoff ?
    my old man said it's never been used and still had the paper tag on it..
    but that was years ago and just the binding wire is left... i see no markings.. weighs 20 pounds




  21. #56
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    Nice find - 20 bucks!

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    $20?!? Okay, fine, I'm jealous now. Those are *very* nice chocks. If I had room to affix those chocks, I would do so. The problem is that B's foredeck is small enough that if the anchor were stowed below (daysailing mode), I'd constantly be barking my toes on the chocks. The boat simply isn't big enough --and no, let's not discuss that issue; that way lies madness...

    As for your anchor, it's a nice fisherman-type --it's the twin of a couple I grew up with-- but it isn't specifically a Herreshoff: the flukes on a Herreshoff are sort of lozenge-shaped, in plan, not arrow-head-shaped, so that they're less prone to being fouled by the warp. Like this:



    But now, darn it, you've got me thinking about patterning up a set of deck chocks, just because.

    Alex

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    How would the anchor be held into the deck chocks?

    Jeff

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    ah ok, that is a major difference and a good design point..
    i'll have to see if they fit the other anchor, but maybe not if the flukes are distinct


  25. #60
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    How would the anchor be held into the deck chocks?

    Jeff
    i don't know if there is a fourth component that did go missing,
    or if, in practice, there would just be a cleat or an eye nearby to lash to.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    Coelcanth, judging by the flukes, crown radius, and general proportions, that is almost certainly a genuine HMCo anchor in that Post #59 photo. Excellent!

    As for whether the HMCo's flukes will still fit in the chocks, I'll bet they will. Those are Wilcox-Crittenden chocks, and there's no telling whether that's a W-C anchor you're trying them with in Post #55, but the chocks and anchor appear to play well together. And just guessing by what I know of W-C's (excellent) hardware in general, they would have designed those chocks to work with a variety of other manufacturers' anchors. The HMCo's flukes might not fit so snugly into the chocks --HMCo anchors' flukes deliberately have quite fine / sharp edges, to aid bottom penetration-- but even if there's a bit of slop, I'll bet the job still gets done just fine.

    How would the anchor be held into the deck chocks?
    Typically there's a simple pad-eye screwed to the deck as well, right in the geometric center of the three chocks, and the anchor is lashed down to that with a bit of light line. A variety of such pad-eyes are still readily available.

    Alex

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    I have been pondering a fisherman style anchor as part of Waxwing’s kit for a while, and followed this thread with keen interest when Alex was working on his anchor a few months back.



    I thought I would add a few photos of the pattern I made after getting inspired by this thread......along with the not quite complete anchor....






    I still need to fabricate the stops for the folding stock, and mill a slot for the stock’s key, but overall I am happy with the experiment. The anchor weighs 15 lbs, which should be plenty for Waxwing.....many thanks for the inspiration and advice, Alex!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Last edited by John hartmann; 05-27-2018 at 01:27 PM.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    Very nice. 15 pounds is a lot of molten bronze.
    Steve

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  29. #64
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    I did not do the casting myself—it was done by the same fellow who cast Waxwing’s mast partner; it does have some heft.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    Well done, John.

    I'm looking forward to photos of beach trials --and even more to seeing it aboard Waxwing!

    Alex

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    The fisherman got finished up today. Here are a few images of the stock arrangement deployed and folded:







    And here, bent onto 120 feet of 5/16” 3 ply nylon, tucked into Waxwing’s lazaret along with 300’ of spare line, mizzen staysail, boomtent, bilge pump and flares.....






    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Last edited by John hartmann; 06-15-2018 at 08:03 PM.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    Nice! Very nice! I'm looking forward to your tug-of-war test!

    I gave my anchor its first real-world test today, thanks to a "minus" tide. We had the lowest low tide of the year --4' below MLLW! (I about needed to rappel down the marina ramp)-- and I discovered that those channel markers? Yeah, there's a reason they are where they are.

    Sqquuuuuerrrshhhh... Drat! Just as I had put the helm down to tack back into midchannel.

    Stuck. Solidly stuck, too, despite not a heck of a lot of wind to move us. A 3000# boat carries a lot of momentum, even at only a couple knots. But at 20 minutes past dead low, and on mud so soft the oar sank in 2' when I leaned on it (nope, ain't gettin' off by poling her bow around!), so what? Douse sail, grab a cookie or two, and wait a little while.

    However, my lazy approach was foiled by a passing SUP'er who swung close and offered to run out a kedge for me. Awfully nice of him! And a good chance to try the new anchor *and* the new rode.

    He ran the hook out about 60' and dropped it in the channel at a depth of 1.5f. Only ~6:1 scope, but the anchor set into rising ground. It took my standing on the foredeck, feet braced and leaning back at about 45, but I dragged B's bow around, dragged us through a few inches of soft mud (we were in about 2'10" of water, according to the oar I used to sound at the stern, and B draws 3'4" --so with me standing on the foredeck, lifting the heel of her keel, I'm guessing we left a 4" deep furrow), and got us back afloat --and the anchor didn't budge! Held like a champion!

    It didn't entirely want to come loose, either, when I got it straight up-and-down, but as hard as I set it, that isn't surprising, and it worked loose eventually, as I took that time to get the jib up. What's more, when it came to the surface that little hole in the crown, that I use for either a stock-lashing twine or a marker buoy, was filled with mud, which I take to mean that the angle of the flukes is almost certainly working to bury the anchor deeper than the apex of the crown, just as Herreshoff intended.

    So in soft mud, it's a real winner.

    I *really* like the new Yale "Brait" rode, too. I used 1/2", running out through a 3/4" spurling pipe, and it pays out without even a hint of hockling or kinking, is fantastic to hang onto, cleats and makes an anchor hitch without any suggestion it might crawl, and then shakes loose without much more than a grumble. And it then flakes back into the "chain locker" as easy and compact as can be. Anyone needing a new rode, my two cents are to go with Brait. Only the one test, but I'm delighted with it. Well worth the investment.

    Anyway, I'm so ridiculously pleased with the test, I genuinely don't care that I went aground. And the rest of the sail was lovely, too, even if it was a bit of a drifter. I even got my cookies in the end, when I made myself a pot of tea while drifting about waiting for wind.

    Next up: Waxwing's pull test! Your turn, John!

    Alex
    Last edited by Pitsligo; 06-15-2018 at 11:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Pattern Photos for Peter

    A lovely bit of work!

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    Default

    Thank you, Peter! Alex, happy to hear the new anchor worked as intended. Well done! Went over to the reservoir today to mess around with the fisherman. The first test was on a very hard packed sand beach which is regularly driven on. The fisherman (15#, no chain) and Rocna (9# plus 12 feet of chain) both oriented and wanted to set, but couldn’t penetrate the hard packed surface further than 3-4 inches, and slowly skated as I dragged. On a different beach, fine sand and silt, the results were much more encouraging:





    Both anchors rolled into position and set within a couple of feet, and held as I leaned back to about 45 degrees.....

    The next photo is how the fisherman behaved as I walked the rode under tension in a 90-100 degree arc...the shank swung less than 45 degrees, and the stock stayed flat. The anchor stayed set.



    The Rocna didn’t release quite as easily as the fisherman, and the fisherman came up with pretty clean flukes. The rocna always comes up with a snootful of the bottom.....

    Lastly, there is a nice way to stow the fisherman cleanly and quick to hand on the foredeck:

    I am satisfed that the new anchor works well enough to begin experimenting with it in use.


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    Last edited by John hartmann; 06-17-2018 at 04:13 AM.

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