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Thread: Something to think about

  1. #1
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    Default Something to think about

    I'm not posting this C&P as ANY sort of defense of Hillary Clinton, nor any sort of apologia.... it's a reflection on a political style that is now definitely 'out of style'... and it kinda saddens me.

    Ezra Klein: “What Happened has been sold as Clinton’s apologia for her 2016 campaign, and it is that. But it’s more remarkable for Clinton’s extended defense of a political style that has become unfashionable in both the Republican and Democratic parties. Clinton is not a radical or a revolutionary, a disruptor or a socialist, and she’s proud of that fact. She’s a pragmatist who believes in working within the system, in promising roughly what you believe you can deliver, in saying how you’ll pay for your plans. She is frustrated by a polity that doesn’t share her ‘thrill’ over incremental policies that help real people or her skepticism of sweeping plans that will never come to fruition. She believes in politics the way it is actually practiced, and she holds to that belief at a moment when it’s never been less popular.”

    “This makes Clinton a more unusual figure than she gets credit for being: Not only does she refuse to paint an inspiring vision of a political process rid of corruption, partisanship, and rancor, but she’s also actively dismissive of those promises and the politicians who make them.”
    Why have we, as a nation, morphed to the point where we are really only interested in what politicans can promise, but never deliver?

    Why is it now unfashionable to consider what is 'possible' in American politics, and it's now quite chic to only want to consider that which can simply never happen?
    "Fact is that which enough people believe. Truth is determined by how fervently they believe it."
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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Nailed it.

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    She refused to pick up the banner of the oppressed white male, and for that she is still being pilloried. See below.

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Why have we, as a nation, morphed to the point where we are really only interested in what politicans can promise, but never deliver?

    Why is it now unfashionable to consider what is 'possible' in American politics, and it's now quite chic to only want to consider that which can simply never happen?
    I do not accept your premise. If Biden had run, there is a good chance he could have won. I seriously doubt he would have been as radical as Sanders. I doubt he would promise things he did not intend to deliver, or work very hard to deliver. Your premise is simply wrong and you are hiding the fact that Clinton was the wrong candidate for the Democratic Party. Moreover, it was party politics that locked up the nomination before she could prove herself in the primaries. The old way of doing things can be carried too far and she did.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Something to think about

    None of what I've heard or seen in any of her interviews does she actually own it, first she says I take full responsibility, then but my email was really find but no big deal really don't know what the fuss was about, next bit is Comey screwed her and if he went public on me he should have talked about Trump and Russia too, then it's Russian meddling. That's not how you own something, it has all been I take responsibility but but but.
    I voted for her as the only option other than Trump but never felt good about it.

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I do not accept your premise. If Biden had run, there is a good chance he could have won.
    Maybe, but it's still speculation. Regardless, it's not only about the Presidency... it's about ALL politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Your premise is simply wrong and you are hiding the fact that Clinton was the wrong candidate for the Democratic Party.
    I'm certainly NOT hiding anything... I fully agree that Clinton was a lousy candidate, for a wide variety of reasons... but mostly, because she had become political poison personified, before she even started.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Moreover, it was party politics that locked up the nomination before she could prove herself in the primaries. The old way of doing things can be carried too far and she did.
    I don't think the OP is reflective of 'party politics'... you're right that the party exerted far too much influence on Clinton as the presumptive nominee... but that is really NOT what the OP is trying tosay.
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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    I'm not posting this C&P as ANY sort of defense of Hillary Clinton, nor any sort of apologia.... it's a reflection on a political style that is now definitely 'out of style'... and it kinda saddens me.

    Why have we, as a nation, morphed to the point where we are really only interested in what politicans can promise, but never deliver?

    Why is it now unfashionable to consider what is 'possible' in American politics, and it's now quite chic to only want to consider that which can simply never happen?

    Not to be flippant, but I think that honesty has been out of politics for pretty much forever. I wish that were not the case.

    On the local and regional level, I think we still see flashes of the "old school", but again, not enough for my tastes.

    At this point, what really frustrates me about Hillary Clinton is what does she think she's doing and where does she think she's going in the political field? I think her time has passed, but it seems that she has not accepted or acknowledged this fact.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  8. #8

    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Not to be flippant, but I think that honesty has been out of politics for pretty much forever. I wish that were not the case.

    On the local and regional level, I think we still see flashes of the "old school", but again, not enough for my tastes.

    At this point, what really frustrates me about Hillary Clinton is what does she think she's doing and where does she think she's going in the political field? I think her time has passed, but it seems that she has not accepted or acknowledged this fact.
    I think she wants to run again, now the Russian cloud hangs over Trump, do it all over this November she would probably win.

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    A problem for Hillary is / was the lack of external genitalia, a huge problem for some.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    A problem for Hillary is / was the lack of external genitalia, a huge problem for some.
    I don't believe that was it Obama jumping that hurdle, I'm not saying it helped but she couldn't even carry white women.

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Smith porter maine View Post
    I don't believe that was it Obama jumping that hurdle, I'm not saying it helped but she couldn't even carry white women.
    White women are as much a part of white male-dominant America as men are.

    Call it Stockholm Syndrome, or whatever, but talk to a few older, Christian-y white women about Hillary and be prepared to be appalled.

    Black women voted for Hillary at between 95-97% per exit polling.

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Smith porter maine View Post
    I don't believe that was it Obama jumping that hurdle, I'm not saying it helped but she couldn't even carry white women.
    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    White women are as much a part of white male-dominant America as men are.

    Call it Stockholm Syndrome, or whatever, but talk to a few older, Christian-y white women about Hillary and be prepared to be appalled.

    Black women voted for Hillary at between 95-97% per exit polling.
    Precisely.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: Something to think about

    This notion that Hillary was a horrible candidate, or the wrong candidate, or a terrible campaigner, is the biggest red herring ever.

    She was the overwhelming choice of everybody else. Everybody other than white male dominant America, Right and Left. The voting demographics from both the primary and the general tell the tale. The results had nothing,nothingnothingnothing to do with Hillary Clinton's "character flaws".

    That's a story white people tell each other. Some people need to get out more.

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    This notion that Hillary was a horrible candidate, or the wrong candidate, or a terrible campaigner, is the biggest red herring ever.

    She was the overwhelming choice of everybody else. Everybody other than white male dominant America, Right and Left.
    I couldn't disagree more.

    Think about it: virtually anyone with a PULSE should have been able to beat Donald Trump... and IMHO, Biden probably could have decimated Trump.. I'm a little less sure about Bernie; 'socialist' just doesn't play well with much of America.

    Hillary Clinton, as I said, was political poison personified. Not that much of any of it was her fault, per se, but the right wing spent the last 16 years portraying her as a monster of sorts... NOBODY could overcome that.
    "Fact is that which enough people believe. Truth is determined by how fervently they believe it."
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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    I couldn't disagree more.

    Think about it: virtually anyone with a PULSE should have been able to beat Donald Trump... and IMHO, Biden probably could have decimated Trump.. I'm a little less sure about Bernie; 'socialist' just doesn't play well with much of America.

    Hillary Clinton, as I said, was political poison personified. Not that much of any of it was her fault, per se, but the right wing spent the last 16 years portraying her as a monster of sorts... NOBODY could overcome that.
    Jayzus. If she was poison, why did she win 95%+ of black women voters?

    She won the popular vote. White male dominant America is just big enough, just rural enough, to win the electoral college.

    If Hillary Clinton is "political poison personified", then WTF is Donald the Pussy Grabber?

    No.

    Hillary just didn't say the things that white people wanted to hear. Donald was willing to be a champion of white resentment. He bet on white America and he won. That is all.

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Call it Stockholm Syndrome, or whatever, but talk to a few older, Christian-y white women about Hillary and be prepared to be appalled.
    their religious texts tell them that women should never lead men.. their ministers told them that to vote for Hillary would condemn them to their hell. fear rules the xtians.

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    Jayzus. If she was poison, why did she win 95%+ of black women voters?
    Because her opponent was Donald Trump?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    Hillary just didn't say the things that white people wanted to hear. Donald was willing to be a champion of white resentment. He bet on white America and he won. That is all.
    You can slice the cake in 1000 different ways. One way to do it is to realize that her loss can be attributed to just 70,000 voters in just three states. I'm sure you're not going to say that Hillary was a STRONG candidate, are you?
    "Fact is that which enough people believe. Truth is determined by how fervently they believe it."
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    Default Re: Something to think about

    And the US will be paying the price for decades.

    The rest of the world will readjust it's power centres and, in the longer run, may be better off.
    The biggest loss for the US will be it's reliability and consistency. Trust.

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Because her opponent was Donald Trump?
    So, you are saying that Donald Trump was political poison to black women, and that Hillary Clinton was political poison to white men. Exactly my point.

    The character of Clinton and Trump is not what drove the votes they received. It was about what they stood for.

    She stood for a reasonable accomodation of everybody's needs.

    He stood for white resentment and Making America Great Again, like it was back when white's were unchallenged in their authority and influence.

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    I will add, too, that while Hillary's personality wasn't particularly the issue, her gender, and how she presents it, was.

    By her gender, and by her refusal to adopt a patriarchal religious obsequious ditzyness so popular among white male-dominant culture, she stood for the further erosion of white male dominance.

    It was no accident she was beaten by this most grotesque caricature of white alpha male.
    Last edited by L.W. Baxter; 09-13-2017 at 09:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    Black women voted for Hillary at between 95-97% per exit polling.
    They should question their blind support of the Clintons; what did Bill do for the black community?

    It could be argued he was the worst president for African Americans in 40 years. . .

    Why would Hillary the pragmatist be any different?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    They should question their blind support of the Clintons; what did Bill do for the black community?

    It could be argued he was the worst president for African Americans in 40 years. . .

    Why would Hillary the pragmatist be any different?
    Raises the burning question: Who knows better the interests of black women in America? 5 million black women? Or Paul Pless?

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Well... and I'm just guessin' here... but Pless is damned near as special as that yahoo from Florida....
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Angry white males some more? Democrats didn't vote for her. They ditched her for Obama in '08, they tried to select Berny in '16, and stayed home for the general. I'm gonna go buy a copy of George H W's book, "How the Little Crazy Man in Texas Beat Me, and Gave You the Clintons".
    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    A large number of the left wing is tired of the 40 year shift of the Overton window to the right. And the only way to stop that, is a candidate that will make left wing promises they can't keep. Right now, there's no chance of Bernie passing Medicare for all, but he's pushing support for it, and in the process, republicans are now negotiating on how they can fix the ACA. Right wing pundits are starting to say 'ACA' instead of 'Obamacare', and a few have even mentioned Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. That is the overton window shifting back to where it should be. Next they'll start making more noise about basic income, and minimum wage increases will start to look a lot more possible. After that 'Right to Work' laws will start getting a lot more scrutiny if the push continues. It doesn't mean we'll ever get medicare for all, or a UBI. It does mean that reasonable policies will actually be looked at.

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Not to be flippant, but I think that honesty has been out of politics for pretty much forever. I wish that were not the case.

    On the local and regional level, I think we still see flashes of the "old school", but again, not enough for my tastes.

    At this point, what really frustrates me about Hillary Clinton is what does she think she's doing and where does she think she's going in the political field? I think her time has passed, but it seems that she has not accepted or acknowledged this fact.
    For at least two decades I have been arguing that accepting lies for political gain as free speech will be our doom. Fraud is not legal, and it is defined as the misrepresentation of matters of fact for personal gain. I don't see how political gain, like winning an election, does not fall within that definition.

    For all the talk of 'blame', I see few posts anywhere that blame the voters. FACT is Hillary Clinton has one hell of a resume. GOP has charged her with many things, run the investigations, and cleared her, but many voters view her as having been convicted of those things.

    Our system cannot work if the voters are misinformed. Period.

    Everyone knew, or should have known, as of election day that Hillary had been cleared (by GOP run investigations) of pretty much everything they had charged her with. We also knew Trump had to settle suits for fraud, discrimination, and failure to abide by contracts. We knew he had to be shamed into giving money he collected for vets to the vets. We knew how he liked to grope women and how he liked to walk through the dressing rooms of his beauty pageants.

    The voters had a choice. One candidate was not very entertaining, but had a ton of experience. She could find any country you named on a map or globe, know who the leader is, and pronounce the name properly. The other candidate could not tell the truth if his tongue was notarized. Flamboyant, yes, but not at all qualified.

    The voters KNEW all of this on election day.
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Smith porter maine View Post
    I think she wants to run again, now the Russian cloud hangs over Trump, do it all over this November she would probably win.
    Life doesn't give do overs, but we may well learn over the next few months that Russia DID change the outcome.

    Then what do we do?
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    This notion that Hillary was a horrible candidate, or the wrong candidate, or a terrible campaigner, is the biggest red herring ever.

    She was the overwhelming choice of everybody else. Everybody other than white male dominant America, Right and Left. The voting demographics from both the primary and the general tell the tale. The results had nothing,nothingnothingnothing to do with Hillary Clinton's "character flaws".

    That's a story white people tell each other. Some people need to get out more.
    Again, I blame the people and the liars.

    I'm reminded of a couple of experiences with my son-in-law's parents. His mom said to me, "Bill Clinton was the biggest liar ever to be president."

    I asked her, "Aside from Monica, what did he lie about?" She drew a blank. I asked her to get back to me. Never did. In my odd way of thinking, if I were to make such a statement, I'd have at least a half dozen examples to support it.

    At a family get together a bit before we invaded Iraq, they both asked me what I thought. I said, "Saddam is a boil on the butt of the world. He has no WMD's, is not threat to anyone outside of a small area of Iraq, the war will go quick, but the peace will be hell."

    They got so pissed off they had to stand up to yell, and yelled a lot in Italian.

    What bothered me most over the years is they never said, "Gee, you were right."
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    I couldn't disagree more.

    Think about it: virtually anyone with a PULSE should have been able to beat Donald Trump... and IMHO, Biden probably could have decimated Trump.. I'm a little less sure about Bernie; 'socialist' just doesn't play well with much of America.

    Hillary Clinton, as I said, was political poison personified. Not that much of any of it was her fault, per se, but the right wing spent the last 16 years portraying her as a monster of sorts... NOBODY could overcome that.
    Everyone with a pulse KNEW the lawsuits Trump was forced to settle. They knew he'd make a statement one day and deny ever having made it the next day. They also knew all the S**t the GOP had charged Hillary with she had been cleared of. Starr gave her a clean bill of health.

    At some point we need to blame the voters.

    I believe there is merit in the idea that Comey's actions drove voters from her. Sanders drove voters from her.

    Anyone who was paying attention knew we had one candidate who actually had a great deal of experience and one candidate who is a huge liar, has lost suits, had to be shamed into donating to vets money he had promised to vets, used his foundation to pay his private debts, groped women, etc. etc...

    The fact that he is president is the fault of the voters, unless we find Russia did more than we think.
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    I'm not posting this C&P as ANY sort of defense of Hillary Clinton, nor any sort of apologia.... it's a reflection on a political style that is now definitely 'out of style'... and it kinda saddens me.



    Why have we, as a nation, morphed to the point where we are really only interested in what politicans can promise, but never deliver?

    Why is it now unfashionable to consider what is 'possible' in American politics, and it's now quite chic to only want to consider that which can simply never happen?

    I found this quite amusing and sadly accurate. Our annual HOA board election is this weekend. Although a far, far cry from the presidency, the tactics by a couple of the candidates are eerily similar: making outlandish accusations about the past year's board actions that are completely false and getting the uninformed, ignorant, and gullible completely riled up. Sound familiar?

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Ya can't cure stupid - and currently, we have a bumper crop.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    I will add, too, that while Hillary's personality wasn't particularly the issue, her gender, and how she presents it, was.

    By her gender, and by her refusal to adopt a patriarchal religious obsequious ditzyness so popular among white male-dominant culture, she stood for the further erosion of white male dominance.

    It was no accident she was beaten by this most grotesque caricature of white alpha male.
    Agreed

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    I will add, too, that while Hillary's personality wasn't particularly the issue, her gender, and how she presents it, was.

    By her gender, and by her refusal to adopt a patriarchal religious obsequious ditzyness so popular among white male-dominant culture, she stood for the further erosion of white male dominance.

    It was no accident she was beaten by this most grotesque caricature of white alpha male.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Agreed
    I agree to a point.

    The margins are razor thin in that election any way you look at it.

    If Hillary were a little 'warmer', if she were able to destroy the promoters of white-male-dominant culture without coming off as shrill, entitled and dangerous, she would have been President.


    To overlook her own flaws/weaknesses as a politician is folly.


    She can never be President because she is a lousy politician.

    That is tragic, because she is an excellent public servant.

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Take it a bit further - I suspect that, if any one of those incidents had been eliminated, HRC would be President. No single on 'brought her down'; it was a culmination.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    I agree to a point.

    The margins are razor thin in that election any way you look at it.

    If Hillary were a little 'warmer', if she were able to destroy the promoters of white-male-dominant culture without coming off as shrill, entitled and dangerous, she would have been President.


    To overlook her own flaws/weaknesses as a politician is folly.


    She can never be President because she is a lousy politician.

    That is tragic, because she is an excellent public servant.
    It was a shocker and reminder that we pick presidents on whether they make us feel good, she didn't make enough feel good to overcome the electoral college bias and a significant minority that wanted to simply have revenge on their own govt.

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