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Thread: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

  1. #71
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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    ...I rather like this - simply because, if a smart guy such as yourself is that susceptible to 'gut reaction' and decision - what chance do the dumb people have?
    That should leave a mark.

    And I agree, a lot of otherwise smart people got worked over. That will be noted in the margins.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Not my intent to insult C.Ross; quite the contrary; respect and admiration is more like it. But my sentiment is sincere - too many folk have this visceral reaction to HRC, based entirely on a decades-long smear campaign by the Republican Party. I used to react similarly - until I saw Clinton interviewed, after she lost to Obama - and recognized 1) how damned smart she was and 2) how bad she was in 'campaign mode/screech'; and how I needed to re-assess what I 'knew'about her. Do some reading; Clinton's character is just fine - don't be duped by decades of lies.

    AFA 'should she run again' - beats me. Folks speak fondly of Biden, not recognizing HE decided not to run. I've about had my fill of Bernie - his goals, I believe, are unattainable, and yet he's co-opted the Democratic Party to further his career and agenda. Interesting parallel to what Trump did to/with the Republican Party - but that's likely fodder for another thread.
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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Back atcha George.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    1) how damned smart she was and 2) how bad she was in 'campaign mode/screech'
    Just so. Ms. Clinton would have been an able President; she was a terrible campaigner. You might accuse me of being sexist or ideologically blinded. I'm neither, nor are the huge swaths of the country who might respect her (grudgingly) but didn't like her.

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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    - what chance do the dumb people have?
    don't ask me, i voted for hillary
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Sexist? No. Ideologically blinded? Again - no. I'm not as 'conservative' as you, most likely - but you intelligently support your positions, rationale, and are damned accurate in your prognostications. I had a 'gut' about this election, last fall - not as fully formed as yours - and the whole thing is sickening. But an ability to emotionlessly evaluate such things is invaluable. You were hoping you were wrong; I was so disappointed, that you were not.

    But back to 'visceral'. Described well, by you - and experienced by a 'wide swath' of voters. Lots of lies told about Clinton - and willingly believed, without question, by so many. Unless 'we' are able to dispassionately evaluate future candidates, and recognize being lied to and manipulated, we're toast, going forward.
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  6. #76
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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Yeah, but Paul - yer special!


    Actually, yer ornery side, aside - you do nice analysis. A touch too much devils advocate - but it's entertaining.
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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Anderson Cooper had a 40 minute interview with her which CNN aired tonight. However she campaigned, however much she is indeed a flawed human, I wish to God she had won.

    Except, of course, that Trump is provoking the crisis within the GOP which it requires, if American politics has a hope of emerging from hyperpartisan idiocy. He is the house fire which I think now is probably the only way that the ungovernability of the GOP can be resolved. Whether by prompting a split and the formation of a third party, or by the eviction by the GOP of their own extremists.

    I'd have preferred another way, but America has a thing for Grand gestures and revolution.
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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Fear that Trump is aiming to create his 'own' party, taking a chunk (the part with all the nuts) with him.

    Grand gesture may be a touch to gentle. I'm expecting blood and guts.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Fear that Trump is aiming to create his 'own' party, taking a chunk (the part with all the nuts) with him.

    Grand gesture may be a touch to gentle. I'm expecting blood and guts.
    The " No, Nothing Party"

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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    don't ask me, i voted for hillary
    Actually, i think you were named as "reason number 57 of why i lost": page 743, i believe.
    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

  11. #81
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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Matt Bai's take. I disagree.

    I don't think we are as far along the gender version of the Jackson to Obama evolution as he wishes we were.

    I don't think he factored in the social angst, despair, and dysfunction that a rising GINI coefficient has handed us. This social and economic stress has us hunkering down, cocooning, tribalizing, and looking for 'others' to blame... NOT new things to try and new ground to break. Like electing the first female prez.

    I don't think he gives enough weight to the decades of smear and attack aimed at her, which was partly partisan and partly as vile and relentless as it was because of her gender.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/sexism-ha...090056161.html
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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    I used to react similarly - until I saw Clinton interviewed, after she lost to Obama - and recognized 1) how damned smart she was and 2) how bad she was in 'campaign mode/screech'; and how I needed to re-assess what I 'knew'about her. Do some reading; Clinton's character is just fine - don't be duped by decades of lies.
    While I don't like the Clintons, the reason people did not vote for Clinton was more along the lines of promises made and broken by the Democrats.

    I particularly liked the way she said that she was not going to raise taxes on people making $250K. What about the people below the median who thought economic life was difficult for them? Out of those 60 million (?) voters she offended just enough to lose. Compared to Obama Clinton lost about 8% of the total vote of those in the bottom half going from a 60-38 margin to 52-41. From a popular landslide to a loss.

    Perhaps one of her biggest problems was following a black president who did little or nothing to reduce the economic differences between the races. There is that persistent unemployment gap. There is that persistent education gap. (But they did get health care.)

    It was not the person. It was the party.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Blah, blah, blah....


    I still like Hillary and Bill. I think Bill was a great president and I'm sure she would have been too!
    Skip

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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Quote Originally Posted by SKIP KILPATRICK View Post
    I saw her on NBC this morning. I still like her and I'm sure she would have been a great President.
    Not sure I'd want to hang out with her, but I wasn't voting for a buddy. She's intelligent and well-informed and tough. She'd have been a great president.
    We're merely mammals. Let's misbehave! ŚCole Porter

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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Again, mystifying. The Clintons supposedly 'ooze entitlement', and maybe they do. So who else have we seen as recent presidential candidates? Bush the Younger, whose family has had gigantic piles of money since the 1930s and whose father was president. John Kerry, the New England blueblood married to an heiress. John McCain, a senator since forever whose father was an Admiral. Mitt Romney, a hedge-fund manager, fer chrissake, the quintessential rich privileged white male. Obama is an exception, and I'll also leave out Trump; he's an anomaly. Nobody is required to like Ms. Clinton or to vote for her, but claiming that the Clintons, neither of whom were born wealthy or into prominent families at all, 'ooze entitlement' is quite strange. It sure looks like she's being judged by a very different standard than almost everybody else prominent in politics.

    Again, the elephant in the room is the fact that she's female.
    it was what seemed like a life time of maneuvering for the job that I disliked: First Lady, move to NY, senator, presidential candidate. SOS. Why not run for senator or congress in Arkansas? Another thing I didn't get was practically no one ran against her. That tells me the word was out not to challenge her or the Democratic Party got lazy and uncreative. The republicans had a field of 17.

    I dont think the clintons oooz entitlement, their lightening rods. It's just not a smart move if you want to win.


    anyway, in the end I did vote for her. I agree, she would be a far better president than we have now.
    Last edited by CK 17; 09-20-2017 at 01:12 AM.
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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    it was what seemed like a life time of maneuvering for the job that I disliked:
    That she did it, or that she was unsubtle enough make it obvious she was doing it? Maneuvering for power is what politicians do; the powerful ones, anyway. The ones who don't, don't become powerful. Ms. Clinton was the first serious female presidential candidate in 230 years and won the popular vote. Why is her ambition 'oozing entitlement' rather than 'brilliant political strategy'?

    Again, I think we're running into something very old and deep in the culture Ambitious powerful men tend to get respect, if grudging; ambitious powerful women, no matter how competent, tend to attract more than their share of fear and hatred.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Again, I think we're running into something very old and deep in the culture Ambitious powerful men tend to get respect, if grudging; ambitious powerful women, no matter how competent, tend to attract more than their share of fear and hatred.
    Why is it that you keep returning to this, while ignoring what essentially every non Trump voter on this forum has said in one way or another repeatedly below?

    Quote Originally Posted by CK 17 View Post
    anyway, in the end I did vote for her. I agree, she would be a far better president than we have now.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  19. #89
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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    To emphasize my point for Keith: to the average Republican voter, it didn't make a bit of difference that Hillary was a woman, nor to the average Democratic voter did it matter. And I really doubt it mattered to very many independent or swing voters. Because being sexist or racist is not the type that is generally attracted to vote for the modern Democratic party anyway. Trump won not because of Hillary's sex, but rather because of a deeply dissatisfied right leaning electorate combined with the fact that Hillary is a deeply flawed candidate.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Hillary failed as a candidate by not working the blue states she lost in the primary. That was a screaming warning sign she should have paid attention to. Obama beat her by being slightly to her political left, and she never budged, even when her next opponent was WAY more to the left. Again, big neon warning sign that was not only ignored, she smashed it with a hammer by telling her primary opponents voters to shut up, and doing everything she could to silence them and the policies they were asking for.

    She may have a lot of intelligence and experience to draw from, but she has a total lack of judgement and is completely tone deaf to anyone outside her political bubble. On top of that she's about half as narcissistic as Trump, which her latest book shows, by trying to shift blame from her own failures to 'what happened to her'. Nothing happened to her, she did it to herself and she needs to own up to that.

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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".
    Interesting how many 'minds' on here discuss Donald Trump.
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    The folks talking about how Ms. Clinton should just vanish are again applying a different standard than for previous candidates. Did anyone say that about Al Gore (who also won the popular vote)? Not that I remember.
    Well, in fairness, my recollection is that Al Gore did more or less the exact opposite of what Clinton has done by not re-litigating the election and instead almost immediately stepping away himself to find a new avenue in which to apply his skills.

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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Keith, thanks for giving me something to think about. I did and your wrong--at least as it applies to me. think it's more being sick of political dynasties than powerful women. I think the same about Jeb bush and joe Kennedy 3rd.
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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    She was a flawed candidate who would have been a very good president. Instead we got the worst possible man at a ]very critical juncture. The perfect was the enemy of the good. To suggest that she is no better than Trump...or worse....as Brian did in his OP is tone deaf.

    Notwithstanding, her book tour is an embarrassment.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    Notwithstanding, her book tour is an embarrassment.
    you ain't never lied
    for the first time in memory i turned terry gross' off when hillary was on monday due to the whining being untenable
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    That she did it, or that she was unsubtle enough make it obvious she was doing it? Maneuvering for power is what politicians do; the powerful ones, anyway. The ones who don't, don't become powerful. Ms. Clinton was the first serious female presidential candidate in 230 years and won the popular vote. Why is her ambition 'oozing entitlement' rather than 'brilliant political strategy'?

    Again, I think we're running into something very old and deep in the culture Ambitious powerful men tend to get respect, if grudging; ambitious powerful women, no matter how competent, tend to attract more than their share of fear and hatred.
    Buddy, I hate to break it to you, but your 'brilliant strategist' got trounced by a vicious, demonic, animated lump of feces.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    I think you guys are really missing some of the effect of Ms. Clinton being female. Rule of males goes back a very, very long way in our culture – and in almost all other cultures, in fact. Gender differences are far, far deeper than racial ones, race being mostly an illusion of superficial characteristics and culture – and you know the trouble we’ve had have getting rid of racism. Differences between men and women are real, and go back far beyond our species, to the beginnings of vertebrates at least.

    Chiefs and kings and emperors and czars and other rulers in almost every culture have been almost all men as far back as we have records. There have been about 50 hereditary ruling monarchs of England, from Athelstan on – and of them, three or four have been women – Elizabeth I, of course, ‘Bloody Mary’ and Anne, briefly. By Victoria’s time, parliament ruled. There has never been a female president of the US or Prime minister of Canada (no, Kim Campbell doesn’t count), women couldn’t even vote in modern democracies well into the 20th century in most cases. Equal rights for women is a very recent development, and goes against what’s probably humankind’s longest tradition. Like it or not, this has an effect.

    Now, I’m certain most people who voted against Ms. Clinton sincerely believe they did it because of her personal failings - and she certainly has her share. But the more I look at it, the clearer it becomes that she’s often judged by a very different standard than male politicians. Men are firm and commanding; women doing exactly the same thing are bitchy and strident. Men are ambitious and skillful, women doing the same thing are entitled and devious. A man talking about why he lost an election is thoughtful, humble, and statesmanlike; a woman doing the exactly same thing is whiny and childish. And the worst of it is that those making these judgements are generally quite sincere; they honestly interpret similar men’s and women’s behavior differently.

    Ms. Clinton certainly has flaws, and made her share of mistakes, maybe more than her share. I'd never claim that she was a' brilliant strategist'. But I think that those who discount the effect of her pair of X chromosomes are being very na´ve.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Now, I’m certain most people who voted against Ms. Clinton sincerely believe they did it because of her personal failings - and she certainly has her share. But the more I look at it, the clearer it becomes that she’s often judged by a very different standard than male politicians
    Keith, slow down, read the following words carefully. The majority of the people that voted against Mrs. Clinton did so because they are Republicans. It didn't matter to them what sex she is, they weren't going to vote for a Democrat, no matter what.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Keith, slow down, read the following words carefully. The majority of the people that voted against Mrs. Clinton did so because they are Republicans. It didn't matter to them what sex she is, they weren't going to vote for a Democrat, no matter what.
    Of course.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    keith still can't believe the loss wasn't from inherent misogyny. keith, she was a sucky candidate. let it go man.

  31. #101
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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Wilson's assessment is closer to my take; lots of factors, wherein she'd be Prez if only one had not occurred. Not a 'flawed candidate' nearly so much as 'victim of a 'hit'' courtesy of the Republican Party over several decades. And now... we're paying for it. My only hope is, Trump supporters feel sufficient pain that perhaps this will be a learning experience.
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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    you ain't never lied
    for the first time in memory i turned terry gross' off when hillary was on monday due to the whining being untenable
    I put on a CD when I heard that Hillary was next up on Fresh Air

    And I voted for her

    I will say again, her real problem is she not even close to the politician that Bill is.
    Elect a clown expect a circus

  34. #104
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    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    Not even close.... to Bill.

    And likely a better leader.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  35. #105

    Default Re: NPR with Hillary Clinton...

    There is an amazing number of people who can only understand politics at the level of personality - the next level is party loyalty

    Most mature of all are the ones who are able to focus on policies and issues.

    Though I voted and supported HRC after Bernie lost in the primaries, HRC's glib approach to issues of war and peace were very troubling to me, as they were to many others.

    Veterans For Peace

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