Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: Sooty Tern..Gunter or Yawl

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Hilton, NY. USA
    Posts
    82

    Default Sooty Tern..Gunter or Yawl

    Ready to start my Sooty Tern. Has anyone built the Sooty with a Gunter rig. I sail on one of the Finger Lakes in NY State. The wind is always blowing up the lake or down the lake, pointing is always a priority, the Finger Lakes are all long and not too wide.

    I know the forum is all about the yawl rig. My old big boat (plastic) spoiled me, a SS design 30 ft. North Star. Two tons of lead on a 5 ft. lever, upwind rocket. I have been sailing my pooduck, that I built, for two years. It sails OK, but not really a upwind rocket. So just wondering if anyone has built the Sooty as a Gunter Sloop, if so, please chime in with upwind performance report.

    Thank

    John

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Victoria, BC, Canada
    Posts
    999

    Default Re: Sooty Tern..Gunter or Yawl

    Those of us sail and oar types in the Pacific Northwest who advocate for the lug yawl in boats like the Sooty Tern, do so because of the type of multi-day voyaging we do in the conditions that prevail here, not because it is a one-size-fits-all solution. Different horses for different courses. Wind here is highly variable and we frequently have to switch from rowing to sailing and reefing and unreefing up to a dozen time a day. Under those conditions, it's my view, and that of others who sail here, that a lug yawl is an ideal rig.

    It sounds like your conditions are different. You don't say it directly, but it sounds like you may be primarily day sailing. You don't say whether you plan to row when the wind disappears or install a small motor. Perhaps the winds are more consistent on the Finger Lakes. In those circumstances, a Gunter rig would make sense to me.

    However, I haven't answered your question whether the Gunter Sloop points better than a lug yawl. It should, but I'll leave it to someone who has one to confirm it, or not.
    Alex

    "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Hilton, NY. USA
    Posts
    82

    Default Re: Sooty Tern..Gunter or Yawl

    Thanks Alex. Yes, day sailing only and with a electric motor if no wind.

    John

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    NH
    Posts
    31

    Default Re: Sooty Tern..Gunter or Yawl

    If you haven't begun building yet, you may want to consider this: https://nh.craigslist.org/boa/d/ian-...254382365.html

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Hilton, NY. USA
    Posts
    82

    Default Re: Sooty Tern..Gunter or Yawl

    Hi Adles. I really enjoyed my Pooduck build, so looking forward to building my own Sooty Tern. Thanks for the craigslist info, it would get me in the water a lot faster!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Schleswig Holstein Germany
    Posts
    469

    Default Re: Sooty Tern..Gunter or Yawl

    Iain Oughtred himself had build his Jeanny II with a gunter rig.
    So you could contact him direktly and dicuss the advantages.
    I did several times and we had some nice conversations.
    The balanced lug on tho other Hand is not that bad as you might guess.
    It isnīt pointing as high as a marconi rig, but surprizingly high if tuned propperly.
    Max

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Aquitaine
    Posts
    700

    Default Re: Sooty Tern..Gunter or Yawl

    Hi JCR1

    I built my Whilly Tern with the Gunter rig and it points very well. I can out point lug rigs quite easily ( but some of that might be hull and foils). Down side is more string and wire than a lug and two sails, but if you go yawl, then two sails anyway. Set up time is not much slower, as I trail with the whole bundle ready to go, just step the mast and attach the forestay.
    A2

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Hilton, NY. USA
    Posts
    82

    Default Re: Sooty Tern..Gunter or Yawl

    Thanks A2. That's what I wanted to hear. I have a slip, so the mast will stay up all the time. I like strings and wires and head sails. If your mast is up, how long to rig and set sail? How about reefing with the Gunter rig.

    JCR1

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Southern NH
    Posts
    1,338

    Default Re: Sooty Tern..Gunter or Yawl

    My impression is that reefing a gunter rig is similar to reefing a marconi rig, except you have to lower the sail completely and reattach the halyard an appropriate distance up the yard for the reefed sail to set right. My guess is that neither will point as well as as a marconi rig, unless you have a wizard of a sail maker.
    And the Binnacle-bats wore water-proof hats
    As they danced in the sounding sea.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Aquitaine
    Posts
    700

    Default Re: Sooty Tern..Gunter or Yawl

    Nope BB

    Iain shows the halyard attached at the yard jaws and a parrel rope secured at one side of the yard, round the mast, through a dead eye and down to a cleat by the jaws. This loop is positioned just below the hounds and slides down as you lower the yard with the halyard. Usual lines already threaded to hold down the reef cringles. Lazy jacks optional, but very handy when you release the parrel and the yard drops onto the boom.

    JCR1
    It is actually faster to rig with everything bundled. But if you leave the mast up, the main could be left on under a cover and it takes a few seconds to hank on the jib. The main is laced onto the boom and yard, so if taken off, would require a few minutes to attach.

    As for having a wizard sailmaker I did them myself with Marino's book and very pleased with the result. I will dig out a link to some photos.
    A2

    Here you go. I had just cast off, so jib not up and not a lot of Wind. 'Scus the fenders...

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/422412...60163826/page2

    Scroll down to near the bottom and pp3 The event is a yearly bit of fun when everybody goes up a local estuary, including walkers, cyclists and equestrians.

    If doing the sails again, I would use one of the 'fake' cotton fabrics in tan. The polyester tends to crinkle, though a decent blow irons it out a bit.
    Last edited by Andrew2; 09-13-2017 at 01:28 AM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    3,074

    Default Re: Sooty Tern..Gunter or Yawl

    You may well want some shrouds which can be dyneema or one of the other low stretch strings. The headstay will stay tighter, so will the jib luff, hence sailing to windward will be better.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Vernon Langille, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity and a quiver of unamed 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Barrie, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    3,821

    Default Re: Sooty Tern..Gunter or Yawl

    We tacked beside this yesterday. It didn't do all that well, and that's compared to our 1947 shallow-draft ketch, which is not known for upwind progress.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    391

    Default Re: Sooty Tern..Gunter or Yawl

    Hi John,

    I haven't built a Sooty Tern, but I built a Ness Yawl back in 2006, and it's almost the same boat. Originally I rigged my NY as a gunter gaff sloop and then a few years ago I converted her to the lug yawl rig after drinking the sail and oar cool aid. The sloop rig pointed just fine and I picked it originally because the lake I sail on most (Lake Arthur in southwestern Pennsylvania) has weird, very changeable winds and I wanted to be able to get back to dock efficiently. A few thoughts about the gaff rig:

    1. Iain draws large sail plans. You will go well in light airs, but must be ready to reef. One rigging option Iain shows has two halyards for the main. There is a peak halyard that ends in a loop around a line that runs the length of the yard and then a halyard at the throat of the yard. To reef, you loosen the throat halyard and then everything can come down at the right angle. Also, for extra convenience I would strongly recommend a topping lift to keep the boom up. Then you can heave to, lower the sail enough to tie in the reef, tighten the throat halyard again, and you're off. Likely you won't need to mess with the peak halyard at all.
    2. Set up - rigging the boat is just like rigging any other sloop - three stays, various methods of attaching the sails to the spars, etc. If your boat spends most of its time rigged and can just be launched and sailed, then set up time is minimal. However, if you are trailering the boat places then setup time can be (or was for me) 30-45 minutes. But maybe I'm slow.
    3. Transitioning to rowing is a pain since it's really hard to get the boom and the main really out of the way. If you're going to use a motor, then it's not an issue.
    4. The boat and rig are perfect for two people, but I found the sloop rig no problem when single handed.

    So, then I decided to convert the boat to the lug yawl rig. There were two primary reasons - first, I wanted the very short setup/tear down time in which I could go from everything in the bottom of the boat to sailing in 10 minutes or less. And second, I don't have a motor and I wanted to be able to row easily. I can go from sailing to rowing or back in 30-60 seconds. It's that easy. Some sailing performance notes:

    1. The lug yawl rig doesn't point quite as well, but only by a few degrees. When I get a little two close to the wind, the sail loses efficiency for a few degrees before everything starts to flap - so a little less dramatic than with a sloop.
    2. Reefing is great. I bring the whole lug assembly (sail, yard, and boom) down into the bottom of the boat, tie in the reef, and re-hoist. If the wind gets up suddenly, this provides a nice moment of calm to collect myself.
    3. Heaving to is equally great. Sheet in the mizzen hard, drop the lug sail and she just sits there. No balancing of jib and rudder.
    4. Single handing is trivial. The mizzen doesn't require much adjustment, so that leaves the tiller and the other sheet. On the other hand, there is nothing for passengers/crew to do, so this could be a downside.
    5. No stays anywhere. If necessary, the entire rig can be set up or taken down (even masts) on the water. The mizzen (with sail and boom) can be left as a bundle (and I do) so dealing with that is dead simple.

    Bottom line, if you want to maximize the performance of the hull for day sailing, then the sloop rig is the way to go. On the other hand, if you want a more user friendly rig that is adaptable to a variety of conditions and circumstances, then the lug yawl rig is the choice.

    Finally, a few years ago my wife and I sailed the boat, as a lug yawl, for a week on Seneca Lake. We had a great time. Since the lake is about 5 miles wide and 30 miles long I found the winds and conditions amazingly steady and predicable compared to the changeable nature of Lake Arthur.

    I hope this helps.
    Cheers,
    Garth

    PS If you find yourself near Pittsburgh, I'd be happy to take you sailing....

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Aquitaine
    Posts
    700

    Default Re: Sooty Tern..Gunter or Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    We tacked beside this yesterday. It didn't do all that well, and that's compared to our 1947 shallow-draft ketch, which is not known for upwind progress.
    Drascombes can not be compared with boats off Oughtred's board. They always had a bit of a rep for being slow and not too close winded. (That appears to be a Drascombe Coaster 21ft?) They have a good following and are fairly seaworthy (Childs tried to circumnavigate in one) But different beasts.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Aquitaine
    Posts
    700

    Default Re: Sooty Tern..Gunter or Yawl

    Garth, we crossed posts.
    Re: Going from sloop rig to rowing, I drop the yard down the mast and haul the boom up with the topping lift. This leaves a bit of sail flapping, but OK for a short row. Since I can't row any distance (shoulders) it works.

    Not visible in the photos, I have an outboard well, but never use it at sea and the hole is closed with the hull cut out. It does come in handy for pic-nics on the Charente river though, where sailing is tricky due to the trees along the banks.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    391

    Default Re: Sooty Tern..Gunter or Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
    Garth, we crossed posts.
    Re: Going from sloop rig to rowing, I drop the yard down the mast and haul the boom up with the topping lift. This leaves a bit of sail flapping, but OK for a short row. Since I can't row any distance (shoulders) it works.

    Not visible in the photos, I have an outboard well, but never use it at sea and the hole is closed with the hull cut out. It does come in handy for pic-nics on the Charente river though, where sailing is tricky due to the trees along the banks.
    No worries. Yep, I did stuff like that for a short row as well, but I never really liked it. For a couple of hundred yards back to the dock it's okay but anything more it gets really annoying. My shoulders are all right - I think the farthest I've rowed my Ness Yawl is two or three miles. For that, the lug rig is perfect.

    I never installed the outboard well. I was going to, but when the time came I just couldn't cut a huge hole in the hull.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Victoria, BC, Canada
    Posts
    999

    Default Re: Sooty Tern..Gunter or Yawl

    In your original post, you mentioned that pointing was a priority, then asked about the relative merits of rigs. The other half of the pointing equation, the foil (centreboard or daggerboard), should receive equal consideration. After all, the resistance to leeway and ability to generate lift by the foil contributes just as much to pointing ability as rig and sail shape.
    For my second sail and oar boat, I paid a lot more attention to foil size, shape and profile and it paid off. My second boat points better and maintains that pointing ability better when it gets rougher. Same sailmaker and similar sail plan between the two boats.
    Alex

    "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •