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Thread: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

  1. #1

    Default Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    A classic case of boat-struck- a pretty boat, a low asking price, and a year-old survey (undertaken by a surveyor who didn't dig too deep apparently...).
    Any opinions as to whether I should run away from this ? I think I'll at least have her hauled (again) and see if I can pull the bolts out to check. Screw fasteners also, but it's the softness of the floors around the big bronze nuts/washers of the keel bolts that has me worried.
    I'm really a complete novice at any of this clearly, although why I didn't undo three screws to access the bilge and inspect the keel before I bought the boat, not after, is pretty stupid.
    Also has had some kind of large stainless steel brackets installed at some point to strengthen the join between the floors and the centre board case. Probably should have been bronze ?
    Fell over myself to pay 10000 CDN for the boat and now am beginning to see the folly of such haste !!
    New Yanmar was put in a year ago so I guess I could pull that out, worst case.
    But I just wanna sail the damn boat !
    Any opinions from these photos ( assuming I can post them.)
    Thanks..
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    You are right to be concerned. Seek expert advice on those. If it was not done right that could be a recipe for expensive problems. Hopefully it should not be difficult to source bronze angle and bolts and swap the stainless out.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    I would certainly suggest following up with due diligence. I will say I've seen much worse in the way of de-lignification. Not saying it wouldn't be an improvement to change them, but what makes you think they aren't original? There doesn't appear to be anything else tying them together, and visible is another SS nut on a rod passing down from the top on the bed-log.
    When was she built?

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Found your other thread imjdi, move the other thread over.

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Doesn't seem so horrible to me. Pretty boat. What is she?
    Chuck Thompson

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Gonna be allot of guessing on this one!
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  7. #7

    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Hi nedL,
    The boat came with a fair amount of information about work done over the years- this included 'rebuilding centreboard trunk' which could mean a lot of things but which I'm sure included adding those s.s. brackets. Boat was built in 1967. Centreboard was redone in roughly 2000.
    No record of any refastening, or keel bolt inspection, unfortunately...
    The boat is a Rhodes Whistler class, mahogany over steamed bent oak.

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Check the electrics, bonding is bad, over zincing is bad. Does look a bit fizzy but I would not replace the stainless/galv, no point perhaps just paint appropriate surfaces with epoxy paint or bed in epoxy? Bronze and 316 stainless are fairly happy to co exist. A first class job is to haul, drop the ballast keel, inspect and replace any funky wood or wasted bolts but you could just go sailing for a few seasons and get your fun out of it then strip it for parts and have a viking funeral somewhere!
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    The reason I was curios about her age was that I was going to suggest that if built in the 60's - 70's 'ish she may have been built with mixed metals like that.

    How soft is the worst of the floors? I have seen and delt with much worse delignification. If the wood seems solid even 1/8" in I don't think I'd have much concern. What we can see of her bilge looks pretty darn good.
    Pretty boat.

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    I would unwind one of those nuts and check what the washer is made from.
    I've had 3/4" 'bronze' washers crumble in my fingers while investigating keel bolt leaks.

    It appears that the nut is immune.

    And just for a laugh,put a volt meter between the nut and the stainless bracket.
    R
    Sleep with one eye open.

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    This was posted in the other thread by JTA...
    https://whistlersdaughter.files.word...y-may-2016.pdf
    It's the survey from last year.

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    I worry that someone took a shortcut and put those big notches in the tops of the floors so they could use shorter bolts. That does not look right.

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Quote Originally Posted by I might just do it View Post

    When you compare those two pictures, there is definitely something happening with the stainless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Williamson View Post
    And just for a laugh, put a volt meter between the nut and the stainless bracket.
    R
    Good shout.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default

    I keep wondering why the OP said he just wants to go sailing! what is stopping you?

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Don't look so bad to me either. Scrape off the fuzzy junk, spray it with "blaster" , poke the wood with an awl, go sailing.
    She a "Finnestere"?

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Don't look so bad to me either. Scrape off the fuzzy junk, spray it with "blaster" , poke the wood with an awl, go sailing.
    She a "Finnestere"?
    I'be been scared of keel bolts. They don't look bad. Tap them with a hammer and listen to the ring. If they ring solid and similar then don't worry. My advice is Do not tighten them.
    It it takes a lot to lose a keel. Even more when they are full. go sailing. Next haul out pull one to check otherwise don't worry until there becomes evidence. When you mess with hull and keel on the hard... the honeymoon is over.
    Be wary of your critics, at peace with your decisions, and work hard to be a better man.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Hello Ted and wizbang and all,
    Thanks for the votes to go sailing !
    But also cautions to check the bolts, which I intend to do.
    Brian, those deeply-notched floors made me scratch my head too. Nothing to do now though although, given the original hardware and fasteners were all bronze, I don't think is was a cost-savings measure.
    Don't know what the original Rhodes 'Whistler' plans look like.

    There didn't seem to be any signs of separation between lead and wood when she was hauled, but I'm just paranoid about the bloody bolts giving way and dropping the lead keel.

    Problem of the internet is that you'll find anything you want to- I've been searching, of course, 'disparate metals in wooden boats, keel bolt wastage, delignification..etc. and I can find horrible stories.
    I'm not even sure if the bolts go through the keel or are just tapped into the lead; I didn't poke around the bottom of the keel to see if the bolts come through.
    I presume they do, but who knows.
    In the mean time I think I'll just sail a little bit and hope the bolts are in as good a shape as the rest of the boat. I just want to putz around English Bay and maybe over to Bowen for the moment anyway.
    Christ this boat is a steep learning curve- interesting, and fun, when you're not worrying about what can go wrong. Which is actually quite a lot. Most of the time.
    Put her nose into the muck in the riverbank at low tide and had to have a kind local pull her off as reverse gear seemingly non-existant !
    Serious momentum.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by I might just do it View Post
    Hello Ted and wizbang and all,
    Thanks for the votes to go sailing !
    But also cautions to check the bolts, which I intend to do.
    Brian, those deeply-notched floors made me scratch my head too. Nothing to do now though although, given the original hardware and fasteners were all bronze, I don't think is was a cost-savings measure.
    Don't know what the original Rhodes 'Whistler' plans look like.

    There didn't seem to be any signs of separation between lead and wood when she was hauled, but I'm just paranoid about the bloody bolts giving way and dropping the lead keel.

    Problem of the internet is that you'll find anything you want to- I've been searching, of course, 'disparate metals in wooden boats, keel bolt wastage, delignification..etc. and I can find horrible stories.
    I'm not even sure if the bolts go through the keel or are just tapped into the lead; I didn't poke around the bottom of the keel to see if the bolts come through.
    I presume they do, but who knows.
    In the mean time I think I'll just sail a little bit and hope the bolts are in as good a shape as the rest of the boat. I just want to putz around English Bay and maybe over to Bowen for the moment anyway.
    Christ this boat is a steep learning curve- interesting, and fun, when you're not worrying about what can go wrong. Which is actually quite a lot. Most of the time.
    Put her nose into the muck in the riverbank at low tide and had to have a kind local pull her off as reverse gear seemingly non-existant !
    Serious momentum.
    I had a fiberglass sailboat with an encapsulated keel I had it for close to 10 years,. It didn't have Keel bolts! for the first year or two I felt like you, after almost 10 years there was not even the slightest indication that the fiberglass encapsulating the keel had any problems whatsoever. The good thing about bolted on keels are the "safety in numbers" of the bolts.

    My only suggestion is get out there and use the boat!! even if you don't sail her, learn how to handle, dock, use the engine, reverse forward if you have to take sailing lessons take them.

    If you don't use the boat you won't fall in love with her, if you don't fall in love with her, she'll become another dock dolly or a dried out hulk, she's beautiful!!

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  19. #19

    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Well, I've hauled the boat and dug out all the putty/filler around the nuts in the bottom of the keel. Then attempted removal of nuts from six of the bolts in the bilge. Had to use an impact driver; managed to dislodge three, but the others wouldn't budge.
    Removed one nut and washer from top of bolt and both looked clean and bright as did the threaded portion of the exposed bolt, the other nuts wouldn't come completely off the bolts, even with the impact driver, or with a large socket wrench with pipe extension.
    Got the nut off both ends of the one bolt.
    Pounded the crap out of it from both ends with a heavy steel sledge onto a piece of hardwood against the exposed bolt.
    Nothing, didn't move at all, nada zilch etc.
    Pounded it, like frickin hard and for a long time. Like, an hour, from both ends.
    May attempt removing a couple floors either side of the centre board, leaving the bolts in place. This would expose a little more of the bolts, and, arguably the worst pair or two of the floors ( really just beefy triangular bits of wood ) could use replacing, although they're sound about 1/8th in.
    All of this still leaves the nagging question of what's going on in the middle of the bolt.
    Part of me reasons that if I was torquing the heck out of the nuts with an impact driver and socket, and nothing moved, it suggests the bolt may be 'ok'. Wouldn't it have sheared off, at least one of them, sheared off ?
    IMG_2529.jpgIMG_2530.JPGIMG_2523.JPG

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    How long do you recon those bolts are?
    Swelled up hardwood will hold a bolt crazy tight. It seems to be stuck in the wood , right? Not a metal on metal issue, far as getting one or a few out?
    Have time to let the wood dry?
    I noticed you used the word "frikin" ,for how hard you banged on it. I encourage you to use REAL magic words in real life.....(that was a joke)
    The shiny threads gotta be a good thing.
    I might put lanolin on those threads when re assembly time comes .
    bruce

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    I had keelbolts that took several hundred whacks with a 12 lb. maul & full overhand, put everything into it swing. Luckily the bilge is deep so I had enough room & also years of experience splitting wood with a maul. I'd guess that I did not see movement until at least 50 whacks - maybe more. This was after a year of the boat drying out too - as I think Bruce (wizbang) has a good point about swelled wood gripping them tighter.

    I would say that the bolts not snapping with the impact wrench might imply reasonable integrity. Unfortunately, you won't know until it's out...
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Perhaps another tack would be possible.

    I thnk those broze bolts of yours are still good. I would encourage you to add 2 additional silicon bronze bolts into the keel in a belt and suspenders kind of way. There are several ways to do this. One would be to drill and pocket 1 1/2" aerospace grade silicon bronze rods into the keel. The second easier option would be to use silicon bronze lag bolts incapsolated in epoxy. The shear strength on each rods would 5 times the keel weight. The fix would be enough to last the rest of the boats life and give you peace of mind.
    Be wary of your critics, at peace with your decisions, and work hard to be a better man.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    Perhaps another tack would be possible.

    I thnk those broze bolts of yours are still good. I would encourage you to add 2 additional silicon bronze bolts into the keel in a belt and suspenders kind of way. There are several ways to do this. One would be to drill and pocket 1 1/2" aerospace grade silicon bronze rods into the keel. The second easier option would be to use silicon bronze lag bolts incapsolated in epoxy. The shear strength on each rods would 5 times the keel weight. The fix would be enough to last the rest of the boats life and give you peace of mind.
    Thanks for your input, and I think added a couple more bolts may be a good approach. When you say to use lag bolts encapsulated in epoxy, is that more-or-less drilling appropriately-sized holes through the keel timber, and then smaller pilot holes into the lead ( presumably quite soft ) and then cranking the lag bolts in ? The boat really ought to go back into the water soon as I'm worried about her drying out and also I'm paying through the nose for time on the hard and moorage...
    Could I do this in with the boat in the water ?
    Meantime some of the rudder came away in my hand and needed new timber and some reinforced riveted brass- nice job by Dave Sharp of Sharp Marine on Shelter Island where the boat is hauled.IMG_0019(1).jpg

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Let's hope you made a mistake when you said brass. Those straps would be bronze surely? If not, go back and do it again. Seems to me your keel bolts are fine, stop messing with them. Fix reverse gear. Go sailing for Petes sake!

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Have a look at this video on another way to remove keel bolts:

    https://www.offcenterharbor.com/vide...olts-bearings/

    You have to sign up for off center harbor, but it's worth it. I think you can get ten free views.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Did you find out what those washers were made of?
    Bronze bolts with bronze nuts should have bronze washers. Had someone used brass washers?
    WHere it goes through the stainless steel brackets you may get away with 316 stainless washers (nothing else).

  27. #27

    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Let's hope you made a mistake when you said brass. Those straps would be bronze surely? If not, go back and do it again. Seems to me your keel bolts are fine, stop messing with them. Fix reverse gear. Go sailing for Petes sake!
    Ahhh...no, they're brass. That bad ?
    Itemized on invoice as 'brass flat bar stock' and 'brass round or rivet stock'
    There are old bronze bolts going through the rudder, but they're questionable- sheared off at point where old rudder timbers joined.
    I trust the fellow doing the work- he's completely restored a 1930s English channel cutter, including new sternpost, new laminated ribs, planking, fasteners, deck etc.
    Trained in England and a professional shipwright specializing in wooden boats.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don MacLeod View Post
    Did you find out what those washers were made of?
    Bronze bolts with bronze nuts should have bronze washers. Had someone used brass washers?
    WHere it goes through the stainless steel brackets you may get away with 316 stainless washers (nothing else).
    Washers are bronze, for sure. Removed a few in the process of trying to deal with keel bolts and they're bronze.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Thanks very much, I'll have a look.
    For the moment I'm going to drop the boat back in the water and see about some sailing.
    Cheers,
    Gareth

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Nick's right, I reckon, about possible electrolysis - that white stuff has that electrolysis look about it. Don't ask me how I know this.

    Beautiful boat, absolutely gorgeous boat. Wow.

    I agree that you needn't worry about the keel bolts. Take her sailing.

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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Quote Originally Posted by I might just do it View Post
    Ahhh...no, they're brass. That bad ?
    Itemized on invoice as 'brass flat bar stock' and 'brass round or rivet stock'
    There are old bronze bolts going through the rudder, but they're questionable- sheared off at point where old rudder timbers joined.
    I trust the fellow doing the work- he's completely restored a 1930s English channel cutter, including new sternpost, new laminated ribs, planking, fasteners, deck etc.
    Trained in England and a professional shipwright specializing in wooden boats.
    Thats surprising. Brass is pretty much useless in salt water. I've forgotten the chemistry, but you end up,with weak crumbly pink stuff in fairly short order. I would have expected bronze flat bar stock for the straps and copper round for the rivets. But not brass.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    Quote Originally Posted by I might just do it View Post
    Thanks very much, I'll have a look.
    For the moment I'm going to drop the boat back in the water and see about some sailing.
    Cheers,
    Gareth
    Before you launch - get a 110 pump to push water out. It will take a few days to swell. Do a bottom paint job and then use slick seam (wax) on the seams to give you some additional waterproofing. Have them put you into the water in the sling on Friday afternoon. Prepare to pump out all weekend with the big pump. By Monday morning, you should be able to motor away. The sides will need more swelling tightening so plan on sailing her. Bring 2 friends to help pump her out when you sail on her ear.

    Get her out and sail. Time and tide waits for no man!
    Be wary of your critics, at peace with your decisions, and work hard to be a better man.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    [QUOTE=jpatrick;5381007]Have a look at this video on another way to remove keel bolts:

    https://www.offcenterharbor.com/vide...olts-bearings/

    You have to sign up for off center harbor, but it's worth it. I think you can get ten free views.
    That 'boltinator' machine is way cool. Amazing what the mechanical advantage of little sprocket to on drill to big sprocket, plus further 'gearing down' of the threaded pulling unit, allows a simple drill to do.
    I love that they seem to have cobbled together such a brilliant device with bits and pieces from the workshop. Clever and capable people though, however nonchalant and modest they seem in that video.

  34. #34

    Default Re: Keeo bolts and lignification...?

    [QUOTE=jpatrick;5381007]Have a look at this video on another way to remove keel bolts:

    https://www.offcenterharbor.com/vide...olts-bearings/

    You have to sign up for off center harbor, but it's worth it. I think you can get ten free views.
    That 'boltinator' machine is way cool. Amazing what the mechanical advantage of little sprocket to on drill to big sprocket, plus further 'gearing down' of the threaded pulling unit, allows a simple drill to do.
    I love that they seem to have cobbled together such a brilliant device with bits and pieces from the workshop. Clever and capable people though, however nonchalant and modest they seem in that video.

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