Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 123 ... LastLast
Results 36 to 70 of 129

Thread: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

  1. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    North East England
    Posts
    635

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Sit in canoe, with some outriggers. Don't knock it until you tried it. All the parts are light, no moving about at all, quick and easy to rig and store, so close to the water it feels faster than it is.

    What I get up to
    https://youtu.be/X9NZEyvpb_Y
    https://youtu.be/oni-3rJzxqQ
    https://youtu.be/eW078PPgJak

  2. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Merrimack NH
    Posts
    628

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    bolger light schooner?

    It is for Paul, right?

  3. #38
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Hell
    Posts
    81,131

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Quote Originally Posted by essaunders View Post
    It is for Paul, right?
    ...
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  4. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dorset, UK
    Posts
    571

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Paul the design parameters you want to be looking at with a monohull are further down the usual excitement list and unfortunately usually not always given.

    1. Depth (of hull) midships.

    This parameter tells you if your going to be squatting, sitting or sitting comfortably SUV style. Combining light displacement with low freeboard for rowing ergonomics will produce a boat with a low midship depth. So you need to strike off anything sail and oar. Most of these will be about 1'10". Also some boats like Ilur, have an extra strake or two's worth of topside depth, but have raised floors for subfloor storage which reduces the potential from sitting comfortable with your feet below you, to a more acute knee angle. But still Ilur has more freeboard depth than most.

    If you sit on an office chair and get your position to the floor comfortable, that measured distance is the seat to floorboard depth you want. It will require a high freeboard boat indicated by a high depth of hull amidships (though how far deep the boat is in the water is also indicated by displacement etc) While that does increase windage, windage at the sea level drops significantly, so I don't think it's an issue. Also boats with more freeboard have delayed downflooding, thus have a better angle of vanishing stability.

    You can modify any design by just adding a strake or two easy enough and raising the seat riser cleats to give more room for your legs and a better sitting position. The catboat shown below has 2'6" of hull depth to arrange seating, compared to something sail and oar of usually 1'9" (ilur is higher at 2'2). I'm 5'11" and an office chair is right when my feet are 1'8" below my seat. In the same office chair my arm rests are set at 2'6"...


    2. Waterline beam (in combination with waterline beam to depth ratio, and waterplane area).

    Something of a handy size, lets say 17ft LOA, might have a 3ft max waterline beam (oar and sail), 4 ft mBWL (sail and oar) and 5ft mBWL (sail) and 6ft mBWL if yo add ballast and a cabin. Typical beam would be a foot wider than waterline beam. Clearly as you go wider, you get more form stability at the expense of wetted area & wavemaking resistance, assuming depth/ displacement is staying about the same. You want to be looking for minimum 5ft, preferably 6ft beam waterline if you want a stiff boat and for the spray you might need a spray hood. Eventually you tend to come up against balance issues and weather helm with heeled waterlines, assuming you still need a pointy front for waves.

    If you want to sail a bit independent of shifting side to side, I think you also need to avoid a jib (and jib sheets) and just use a single main sail controlled from a central mid boom position. A side deck and coaming will also reduce downflooding if your sat on the wrong side in a gust. An outhaul to flatten the sail and a vang to control leach tension will also enable you to depower the sail without sitting it out. To get an on the fly outhaul you need to forget balanced lug and have a rig with the boom attached to the mast, like a gaff, bermudan or standing lug.

    So beamy (a wide boat) high depth (boat with high freeboard) single sail. I'd use a small silent electric outboard positioned inboard, infront of the rudder. You just push a button and its on and whirrs away. As serene as rowing but you face forward and without the effort.

    I reckon a 16-17ft catboat, something like this 'River Lapwing Catboat'


    http://www.selway-fisher.com/OtherDB.htm

    Fundamentally look for something with a deep chest and a wide bottom.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 09-11-2017 at 01:41 PM.

  5. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Portland, Maine
    Posts
    14,597

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SKIP KILPATRICK View Post
    Maybe Lapwing? Same designer as Core Sound and good performance, but more "wooden boaty".


    LOA 15′ 8″ Beam 5′ 6 1/2″ Draft 7″ – 42″







    What? Am I talking to myself here?

  6. #41
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hills of Vermont, USA
    Posts
    20,747

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    What? Am I talking to myself here?
    I seem to do it all the time...

    Maybe people have just learned that I should be ignored - though I hope you aren't in the ignored group!
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  7. #42
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    US
    Posts
    3,379

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    WBF=DNC

  8. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia
    Posts
    3,205

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    What? Am I talking to myself here?

    Could be? Due to filters I can't see YouTube on my work laptop! I'll have to watch your video when I get home.
    Skip

    ---This post is delivered with righteous passion and with a solemn southern directness --
    ...........fighting against the deliberate polarization of politics...

  9. #44
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Hell
    Posts
    81,131

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Quote Originally Posted by erster View Post
    those are nice boats
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  10. #45
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Livin' in Oz
    Posts
    52,736

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    I like cats. Especially larger ones. But I don't see how a small cat is the best option for someone with band knees.

    Basically what I'm looking for is a boat that can be sailed while seated comfortably either from a side deck or from a bench and that when tacked or gybed doesn't require one to crawl to the other side of the boat on one's knees. I don't mind if the boat heels much. Ducking a boom is not an issue, but getting on my knees is a major issue, or rather getting back up is really the big deal. No cartilage remaining in one knee, and have had multiple repairs to the other and am missing a kneecap. . .
    I raced the Tornado back in the days before twin trapeze and spinnakers. One of the guys in my fleet was a polio "victim". It didn't stop him racing. He used double sticks to get to the boat, then dragged himself around on the trampoline.

    My knees aren't the best either... but once seated, I'm fine. I suspect that a bigger issue for you is going to be the rigging / de-rigging process.

    These things are the Ferraris of the sea. You wouldn't want to settle for a Chevvy, would you

    Gratuitous photo of us on a low wind day, north of Cairns, at the Tornado Nationals, 1980

    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  11. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    21,970

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    I think a lot of little boats can be made comfortable. I did so with my little catboat, Meerkat, by putting the thwart at the center of buoyancy. I sail it with one leg on the seat, the other behind it, and I've got the sheet coming from the stern, so when I tack, I put both legs down, scoot my butt across while turning my back to the bow, and put the other leg up on the seat. You could probably do this with Reuel Parker's 14' flatiron skiff, which would give you more room. Like this, but with a longer tiller and a seat that goes farther back:


  12. #47
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas, USA
    Posts
    1,936

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    The Tornado brings back good memories.
    But I really don't think its for Paul or his knees.

    Great boat, but I don't want to sit on one due to my "weak" back. It gets painfull after a while.

    I'm afraid Paul is allergic to "newer boats". Tornado was first built about 50 years ago - not long enough.

  13. #48
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bainbridge Island WA
    Posts
    2,139

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed



    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  14. #49
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    17,362

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Any small boat that is tender will introduce strain to your legs, knees, and back and they all are. This will include any boat with a 3 or 4 beam ratio. A banks type dory may be the worst, and at the end of a day in one of those you may be feeling pretty beat up. Sailing a Catboat over 18 feet in a moderate breeze will be a lot like sitting in a church, it is going to be 8 feet or better in the beam. If that catboat has a "wheel" two people can just sit across from each other and only occasionally need to shift position.
    Think "Form stability"... Scows are good, but not poular and give up a little to weather in a chop. (Most small, modern high sided sailing craft are quite uncomfortable to me.)

  15. #50
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    7,670

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    I agree that there's nothing like beam to make a boat comfortable and relaxed. Hence the preponderance of suggestions for catboats and multihulls. The other route is to add weight, which is not wanted in the brief. Water ballast could be an option. The Scamp has been suggested; another small water ballasted study is CLC's NanoShip, a big 12'11". BTW, you have to see a Scamp in person to appreciate how roomy the cockpit is. Beyond what you'd think possible in such a short boat.



    -Dave

  16. #51
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas, USA
    Posts
    1,936

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Beam is what comes with multihulls. Sorry Paul, I couldn't stand it.

  17. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    41,406

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    I agree that there's nothing like beam to make a boat comfortable and relaxed. Hence the preponderance of suggestions for catboats and multihulls. The other route is to add weight, which is not wanted in the brief. Water ballast could be an option. The Scamp has been suggested; another small water ballasted study is CLC's NanoShip, a big 12'11". BTW, you have to see a Scamp in person to appreciate how roomy the cockpit is. Beyond what you'd think possible in such a short boat.
    And the Scamp is also faster than you'd expect for that length and tubbiness.

    I've sailed a CoreSound20, and been aboard a CS17. I think either would work for you. In fact that CS20 is one of the last boats an old friend let loose of as his knees forced him out of small boats.

    Any of that family of Welsford boats would be suitable. Houdini, Navigator, Pathfinder. Pick your length/weight.

    Or, similarly, a Highlander 16 from Selway-Fisher. Or a Vivier 'Ilur'.

    Bolger Chebacco is another thought. Or, for smaller, one of the Hartleys, like maybe a 14'.

    Oughtred has been mentioned, but many of his are on the sleeker side. If you want that, which I wouldn't in your shoes (knee braces), also look at the Hvalsoe 16, or a Kurylko 18.

    Who else? There are nifty catboats from several designers. William Garden and Joel White, among others. We haven't mentioned Gartside, Stambaugh, Atkin, PAR, Mertens, or Doug Hylan... all of whom might have something that scratches your itch.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  18. #53
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Shore, Massachusetts
    Posts
    6,621

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    after carefully considering the offerings I'm still sticking with my suggestion of the O' Boat, but the Stirven is a pretty hull and very similar to the O, I'd call it a sister ship but it's about 80 years newer design!


  19. #54
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    23

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    François Vivier's Aber might meet your criterion well. She rows better than Ilur but is slightly smaller. Likely not as seaworthy as SCAMP, though.

    Last edited by Timo8188; 09-12-2017 at 01:33 PM.

  20. #55
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Shoreline, Washington
    Posts
    2,234

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    By an aging old fat dude with bad knees. Trailerable, though she'd probably live on a dock. Protected waters and inland lakes. Open or half decked. Auxiliary propulsion should oars. Shallow draft is necessary. Mostly sailed solo, or with one other person aboard.

    Thoughts?
    HV 18
    Sailing, rowing, stable, comfortable?
    The 18 has considerably more volume and ease of movement compared to a 16.
    Friendly shape to plank up. You did not specify 'easy to procure'. I'm tinkering with a few placements for hull #2, prior to something resembling a final set of drawings.

    If you want a big fat boat based on armchair ergonomics that's cool. That could be very comfortable. I don't think you'll much want to row it. And there are plenty of less sophisticated hull shapes that will give you a lot of satisfaction as well. You already know that, you're a smart guy.

    Can't see a need for anyone to ever be on their knees in an 18, that is part of the point of the design. Hull #2 is about 21 1/2" minimum depth. As suggested, depth can be a somewhat flexible number. I plan to make the side benches a little wider than Tim's boat, and I think a little lower and sloped for comfort, but certainly they won't be a high back situation. I would also like to arrive at a lighter spar for the lug mainmast - although I've never heard Tim, Alex, or James complain about the weight of their sticks. With Tim's boat I found myself moving around between the aft deck, the side benches, and the floorboards (latter best while leaning back in a beach chair). Tim tells me he mostly parks on the aft deck or aft corner side benches. I'll be 60 next year. Knees are still ok, and I am fairly trim. Stability was one of the strongest comments Chris Cunningham made about the 18 in his review.
    Eric

  21. #56
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    32

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Total knee replacement and you will be amazed at the results. You will be down a month with PT. I am 75 and had mine done 10 years ago and sailing laser and wayfarer.

  22. #57
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    26,563

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Would it need a transom?

    18 feet



    15 feet

    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  23. #58
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Hell
    Posts
    81,131

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    Would it need a transom?


    i'm down with double enders
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  24. #59
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    13,405

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    I always figured you'd be down for a 12-1/2.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  25. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    7,670

    Default

    There's a good question. What's feels and sails like a 12 1/2 but with shoal draft?
    -Dave

  26. #61

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed




    Your original post was for the smallest boat that could be comfortably sailed and rowed, iirc. I have long admired Paul Fisher's Northumbrian Cobles. The first two pictures are of the 9'4" version, which is the smallest. The second two pictures are of the 12'6" version, which I believe would be easier to row. Either could hold camping gear for one and be easily pulled up on a bank. They also appear to be relatively simple to build despite their curvaceous shape. I don't know if they will appeal to you, but I like 'em - John

  27. #62

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed




    When I saw these Paul Fisher Highlander 12 pictures, especially the one with the boom tent, I started rethinking my decision to build an Oughtred J2. Well, not really, but this is one cool small boat! - John

  28. #63
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    114

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Eels are always a good choice, if you ask me. But then again I'm biased.


  29. #64
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,293

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Pardon my ignorance Paul , but what is an EEL ?.
    Regards Rob J.

  30. #65
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,293

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Paul the design parameters you want to be looking at with a monohull are further down the usual excitement list and unfortunately usually not always given.

    1. Depth (of hull) midships.

    This parameter tells you if your going to be squatting, sitting or sitting comfortably SUV style. Combining light displacement with low freeboard for rowing ergonomics will produce a boat with a low midship depth. So you need to strike off anything sail and oar. Most of these will be about 1'10". Also some boats like Ilur, have an extra strake or two's worth of topside depth, but have raised floors for subfloor storage which reduces the potential from sitting comfortable with your feet below you, to a more acute knee angle. But still Ilur has more freeboard depth than most.

    If you sit on an office chair and get your position to the floor comfortable, that measured distance is the seat to floorboard depth you want. It will require a high freeboard boat indicated by a high depth of hull amidships (though how far deep the boat is in the water is also indicated by displacement etc) While that does increase windage, windage at the sea level drops significantly, so I don't think it's an issue. Also boats with more freeboard have delayed downflooding, thus have a better angle of vanishing stability.

    You can modify any design by just adding a strake or two easy enough and raising the seat riser cleats to give more room for your legs and a better sitting position. The catboat shown below has 2'6" of hull depth to arrange seating, compared to something sail and oar of usually 1'9" (ilur is higher at 2'2). I'm 5'11" and an office chair is right when my feet are 1'8" below my seat. In the same office chair my arm rests are set at 2'6"...


    2. Waterline beam (in combination with waterline beam to depth ratio, and waterplane area).

    Something of a handy size, lets say 17ft LOA, might have a 3ft max waterline beam (oar and sail), 4 ft mBWL (sail and oar) and 5ft mBWL (sail) and 6ft mBWL if yo add ballast and a cabin. Typical beam would be a foot wider than waterline beam. Clearly as you go wider, you get more form stability at the expense of wetted area & wavemaking resistance, assuming depth/ displacement is staying about the same. You want to be looking for minimum 5ft, preferably 6ft beam waterline if you want a stiff boat and for the spray you might need a spray hood. Eventually you tend to come up against balance issues and weather helm with heeled waterlines, assuming you still need a pointy front for waves.

    If you want to sail a bit independent of shifting side to side, I think you also need to avoid a jib (and jib sheets) and just use a single main sail controlled from a central mid boom position. A side deck and coaming will also reduce downflooding if your sat on the wrong side in a gust. An outhaul to flatten the sail and a vang to control leach tension will also enable you to depower the sail without sitting it out. To get an on the fly outhaul you need to forget balanced lug and have a rig with the boom attached to the mast, like a gaff, bermudan or standing lug.

    So beamy (a wide boat) high depth (boat with high freeboard) single sail. I'd use a small silent electric outboard positioned inboard, infront of the rudder. You just push a button and its on and whirrs away. As serene as rowing but you face forward and without the effort.

    I reckon a 16-17ft catboat, something like this 'River Lapwing Catboat'


    http://www.selway-fisher.com/OtherDB.htm

    Fundamentally look for something with a deep chest and a wide bottom.
    Edward , interested in your comment re using an electric outboard inboard .
    What about using an electric motor inboard ?.
    http://ecoboats.com.au/
    For me , it would be used in a "Heather" , which would be sailed , but motored when I have to.
    Regards Rob J

  31. #66
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    42,518

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Here is one of the small boats that really is shoal, really can be trailered if built cold molded or strip rather than the designed carvel, and most importantly, really can sail well.

    You'll note two mast steps. Rig as a sloop or catboat with the same mainsail. The sloop is faster, of course, in winds where you can carry full sail. But the cat rig has conveniences, especially when it blows up or when one wants really lazy sailing. Nice to have the choice.

    The side decks look narrow and uncomfortable but the coaming is low and actually it's quite comfortable. Still, if I had knee issues I'd thing of wider wash decks and no coaming with a V splash board from just ahead of the mast swept back (if the cuddy is eliminated) or just little splash boards from the back of the cuddy to the gunnel on each side.


  32. #67
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    42,518

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    And here's one starting her annual taking-up. One of Spaulding Dunbar's finer.


  33. #68
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    1,322

    Default

    Ilur is capable and commodious:








    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  34. #69
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Gone West!
    Posts
    1,318

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    There's a good question. What's feels and sails like a 12 1/2 but with shoal draft?
    My first thought was Joel White's Flatfish. I'm just not sure how important the rowing part of the brief is in the overall scheme. That Dunbar design that Ian mooted looks interesting. I'm not familiar with the boat. Bolger's Koster (also above) or his Harbinger might serve.

  35. #70
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dorset, UK
    Posts
    571

    Default Re: Small sailboat that can be comfortably sailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Portland View Post
    Edward , interested in your comment re using an electric outboard inboard .
    What about using an electric motor inboard ?.
    http://ecoboats.com.au/
    For me , it would be used in a "Heather" , which would be sailed , but motored when I have to.
    Regards Rob J
    Rob, for dayboats and under I like that the Torquedo top battery comes off to take home and charge properly. It splits the weight of the unit into pieces (the tiller comes off too), and allows you to take the expensive bits home and leave the drive unit in place if you want. Less back strain when you want to move the whole thing. I know they are completely sealed (they'll run underwater), I'd have to see what an electric drive unit was like and if it could handle the proximity of bilge water).

    Starting outboards is usually a bit of a frig. I like that it's just push button and it's immediate - good if your caught in a following tide stream and loose steerage for example, as we can get in Keyhaven. I also like that its just a hum. I'd say it's more akin to sailing along than motoring. It felt like a game changer when I had a go in a keel sail boat with an electric inboard sail drive once. Definately worth the premium, some of which you get back as there's no servicing. You'd catch more fish trolling without the exhaust noise going though the water.

    I have to say a few hours on boat with a small steam engine is always a guaranteed to be a very pleasant afternoon also. Forget the frig of sails and rigging: there's nothing quite like a good steam boat for comfortable civilised afternoon in light air, flat water with drinks under a canopy...
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 09-14-2017 at 08:23 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •