Page 131 of 162 FirstFirst ... 3181121130131132141 ... LastLast
Results 4,551 to 4,585 of 5664

Thread: Scientific knowledge

  1. #4551
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    1,922

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank! View Post
    says 62 million years. - this was the maximum possible (even so, fatal for the theory of Evolution).
    - the authors mentioned that the Minimum could include 6000 years.
    Frank!, if there's a maximum of 62 million years, with nothing else defined, then the minimum could include 12 minutes, couldn't it?

    Why - unless you're shoehorning a theory to fit what you want - would you plump for 6000 years, 0.01% of the estimated maximum?

    subduction of ancient seawater (i.e. burying salt) because tectonics 'isn't allowed'
    - not familiar with this argument (and didnt catch it in the reference)
    Ok. Suppose:

    A/ I'm dropping salt into a bucket of fresh water at a particular rate. A spoonful a minute, say.
    B/ After an hour, I tell you the rate and give you the bucket. I don't tell you how long I've done it for.
    C/ You measure the salinity, to work out how many spoonfuls have been added to the bucket.
    D/ You do the maths. Time = salinity/rate.
    E/ You declare the maximum time to be ~1 hour. You'd be unlikely to propose the minimum time was therefore about a third of a second. But that's precisely what you're doing.

    Meanwhile, in the real world, tectonics and subduction is removing salty water from the bucket. It's greasing the sinking plates at subduction zones, and is boiled up and the water released as steam in volcanoes: think of that as new fresh water to fill the bucket, while the excess salts are left buried in the geology.

    If we conduct another experiment where, over time, "some amount" of salty water is removed from the bucket at a regular rate, and replaced by fresh, while I still spoon in salt, you'd now have no idea how long I'd been adding salt. Could be an hour, could be four billion years.

    Andy
    "We were schooner-rigged and rakish, with a long and lissome hull ..."

  2. #4552
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    41,916

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank! View Post
    If you want to look at things that way, Gary - then of course it is just the same for the evolutionists.
    They would be, according to your theory, "trying to fit what they observe into what they believe " - ie there is onlly the material / natural (no supernatural necessary)

    Which is fine.

    Either way, it comes back to applying the scientific method, as distinct from scientific dogma.
    Cheers,
    Frank
    Scientific method includes the fundamental Laws of Science. So how about applying the Laws of Science to the World Wide Flood, Frank?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  3. #4553
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,500

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Hah!
    Yes, Andy,
    Without checking again, i would guess that they were only concerned to determine the maximum possible age. As you point out, the salinity argument probably can't be used to determine the minimum. (If we dont know the initial salti ess, it could have been last Tuesday - or even a femosecond ago!).
    Doesn't invalidate the maximum determination cos that is, as you point out, determined by the initial saltiness and the "salt cycle"
    Your "Subduction Cycle " is interesting. Has anybody examined it?
    Regards,
    Frank
    (And i was beginning to think (hope?) this thread was dying - and my life could return to normal. ...)

  4. #4554
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    41,916

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank! View Post
    (And i was beginning to think (hope?) this thread was dying - and my life could return to normal. ...)
    You are the only one keeping it alive. The solution is at your finger tip. The one that pokes "Shut down".

    Before you go how about answering the question of the Laws of Physics and the Global Flood?
    I am beginning to think that your go to Creation.com has let you down on that one.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  5. #4555
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    26,884

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank! View Post
    If you want to look at things that way, Gary - then of course it is just the same for the evolutionists.
    They would be, according to your theory, "trying to fit what they observe into what they believe " - ie there is onlly the material / natural (no supernatural necessary)

    Which is fine.

    Either way, it comes back to applying the scientific method, as distinct from scientific dogma.
    Cheers,
    Frank
    No, seriously wrong Darwin didnít have a theory of evolution to start with and then try to fit what he observed into it. He Developed the theory based on what he had observed in the GalŠpagos Islands. Whereas your version is an interpretation of a story written in a book...big difference.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  6. #4556
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,500

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    With respect, Gary, I would still hold to my point about presuppositional bias.
    Regardless of whether it was set down in a book or not, there have been god believers and non-believers since yonks.
    Respectfully,
    Frank

  7. #4557
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    26,884

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank! View Post
    With respect, Gary, I would still hold to my point about presuppositional bias.
    Regardless of whether it was set down in a book or not, there have been god believers and non-believers since yonks.
    Respectfully,
    Frank
    Frank I have no problem with anyone believing in a god, it's their right to believe in whatever gets them through the dark of night. However what you are trying to do is make reality fit your belief and it's not going to work. It would be like me believing I can fly unaided. The physics will prove me wrong if I test the belief.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  8. #4558
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Deepest Darkest Wales
    Posts
    19,956

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    There are some beliefs which are better not tested too hard.....

    And some which never get tested at all - which is what the demon is for,
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

  9. #4559
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,500

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    *The physics will prove me wrong if I test the belief.

    Exactly!

  10. #4560
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    26,884

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank! View Post
    *The physics will prove me wrong if I test the belief.

    Exactly!
    And the physics will prove you wrong on your great flood and young earth theories.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  11. #4561
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    1,922

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Incidentally, I followed up on reading your RATE stuff.

    I particularly love the idea that radioactive decay peaked during Creation Week (or Flood Time, the bible doesn't exactly specify which) when the entire planet would have reached 22000 Celsius as a result, and would have evaporated.

    But didn't.

    Andy
    "We were schooner-rigged and rakish, with a long and lissome hull ..."

  12. #4562
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,500

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    (people in glass houses ..... mutter, mutter)

    - so that would be the same Physics that explains everything in our Universe by invoking 20 times as much stuff outside of it ...???

  13. #4563
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,500

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    btw good on ya for looking at RATE, Andy,

    may i suggest :

    https://creation.com/search?q=the+new+cosmology

    .....> Newton .......> Einstein ....... > Humphreys (? - or Hartnett, or Camelli, or ???) .........>


    but we seem to be getting somewhere.
    - as far as oceanic salinity goes:
    On reflection i cant see enough salty water being recycled out of the oceans by subduction at finger-nail growth speed - and anyway, wouldnt that be related to the amount of volcanic water ejected ? (i seem to remember that being mentioned in the article)
    I accept that it is far too imprecise to provide a date - but maybe we can be reasonably confident that it indicates an upper boundary for the presence of the oceans that is far too recent to allow current models of Evolution to work?

    I had to pass on Star formation stuff - too far above my head to comprehend - but i would note that some of the new cosmologies allow our local region to be thousands of years old and outer regions to be billlions of years yet with the same origin date
    (Einstein's "Twin Astronaut Paradox" and the fudged times in the GPS system come to mind)

    [maybe the same strange physics that allows Accelerated Radioactive Decay (the evidence of which we observe in the products of that accel. decay) - can also account for "Soaking up" or dissipating the heat???
    - but dont ask me........ ]

    anyway exciting times! - love the new vistas opening up!

    frank

  14. #4564
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    41,916

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank! View Post
    but we seem to be getting somewhere.
    - as far as oceanic salinity goes:
    On reflection i cant see enough salty water being recycled out of the oceans by subduction at finger-nail growth speed - and anyway, wouldnt that be related to the amount of volcanic water ejected ? (i seem to remember that being mentioned in the article)
    I accept that it is far too imprecise to provide a date - but maybe we can be reasonably confident that it indicates an upper boundary for the presence of the oceans that is far too recent to allow current models of Evolution to work?



    frank
    Prove it Frank. Just because you personally can't see it is not proof, you need to provide data and calculations.

    Do those new vistas opening up include matching your Global Flood to the Laws of Physics any time soon?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  15. #4565
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Concord, Massachusetts
    Posts
    2,369

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    So, my daughter had her wisdom teeth removed last week. I got to thinking about them. Turns out these teeth are an evolutionary leftover like the coccyx, and the appendix to name a few. We needed more teeth back in the day to grind coarse vegetable fiber.

    Frank! Do you have any of these evolutionary leftovers?
    "Wherever there is a channel for water, there is a road for the canoe. " - Thoreau

  16. #4566
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,500

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Look out! - gottem all - inc 6 of the 1st!

    - but Fitzy ya behind the times....

    https://creation.com/human-appendix

    (and even DNA turns out to not so much junk anymore...

    https://creation.com/astonishing-dna-complexity-update

    Regards,

    Frank

  17. #4567
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Concord, Massachusetts
    Posts
    2,369

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Creation.com has all the answers.... unless you read through the lines.

    I think I will just sit here on my vestige of a tail and enjoy my coffee.
    Last edited by Fitz; 08-12-2018 at 07:47 AM.
    "Wherever there is a channel for water, there is a road for the canoe. " - Thoreau

  18. #4568
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    1,922

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank! View Post
    On reflection i cant see enough salty water being recycled out of the oceans by subduction at finger-nail growth speed
    3−4.5◊1014 g yr−1 I found in two minutes of Google.

    ...call it about a million cubic metres a day. (Which incidentally means an 'all the oceans' of water has been subducted since the Earth began.

    Andy
    "We were schooner-rigged and rakish, with a long and lissome hull ..."

  19. #4569
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,500

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    3−4.5◊1014 g yr−1 I found in two minutes of Google.

    ...call it about a million cubic metres a day. (Which incidentally means an 'all the oceans' of water has been subducted since the Earth began.

    Andy
    Wow!

  20. #4570
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    UK. Cornwall, Suffolk.
    Posts
    4,523

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Ahhh, but how many beans in 5?

  21. #4571
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    41,916

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank! View Post
    Wow!
    The subduction zones are very very long, present day subduction zone lengths are 61 940 km. At 8 cm per year that is 5 million sq m per year of sea bed salty mud. Big numbers all round.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  22. #4572
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    50,555

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Shoveling the ocean with a pitchfork.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  23. #4573
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    41,916

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Shoveling the ocean with a pitchfork.
    Just searching for a chink in which to insert a wedge and start hammering.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  24. #4574
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    26,884

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    The subduction zones are very very long, present day subduction zone lengths are 61 940 km. At 8 cm per year that is 5 million sq m per year of sea bed salty mud. Big numbers all round.
    I’m impressed as well.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  25. #4575
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    41,916

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Iím impressed as well.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  26. #4576
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    26,884

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That is one of my favourites.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  27. #4577
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,500

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    So, what you're saying is - it would take billions of years to take out by subduction the amount of salt that can be put back in the oceans in a max of 62 million years ?
    have I got that right?
    Last edited by Frank!; 08-13-2018 at 12:06 AM.

  28. #4578
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,500

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge


  29. #4579
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,500

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    And while we are having fun - how about this!
    https://youtu.be/ogSttUF9mbo

    Yeh - i under stand hez beena norty boy (and some of the things hez torkin 'bout are a bit sus - but,hey! - since when does that matter?
    (and he's got a great delivery style .......)

    - first time ive viewed it
    and its only courtesy of fhis fhread i came acrossit

  30. #4580
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    1,922

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank! View Post
    So, what you're saying is - it would take billions of years to take out by subduction the amount of salt that can be put back in the oceans in a max of 62 million years ?
    have I got that right?
    No. You've not got that right. As with just about everything else.
    "We were schooner-rigged and rakish, with a long and lissome hull ..."

  31. #4581
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,500

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    (grumble grumble)

    If Atlantic 3,200 kms wide (ruff approx) @ 8cm per yr. - takes 20 mill. yrs to sweep all the sediment water* under the continents.

    in 62 mill years it would get 3x goes at taking the salt out of the ocean

    not enuff???

    OK, be kind to me - its a long time since i did any simple math in order to win a bet.....


    *sediment water as opposed to water in the main body of the ocean

  32. #4582
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    1,922

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Re-read my post #4551.

    What's the 'some amount'?

    It turns out to be (am I surprised?) about the same as the rate of salt deposition - you've therefore got a near 'steady state' going on, which makes using ocean salinity as a clock useless for anything other than determining a minimum age. Still in the millions, mind you. Not a handful of thousands. Easy readable article here.

    I don't know how your mind works, Frank!, but on writing my stuff yesterday, I got thinking about tectonics - picturing scum bobbing about the surface of a hot crucible, and how, in our multi-continental times, we have more 'edges', more subduction going on than in Pangaea days. Was the Panthalassan ocean therefore saltier than ours? Do variable salinities mechanically change the rates of subduction? Etc.

    You may, on this thread, be trying to convince people (or perhaps just yourself) that YEC is a valid system, able to withstand scrutiny (it isn't), but inadvertently you're sending me off in Real World, real science directions that I may not have otherwise wandered down.

    For which, faint praise indeed, I thank you - and the other contributors who've opened my mind to some genetics , geology and evolutionary articles that have been fascinating.
    Last edited by AndyG; 08-13-2018 at 03:24 AM. Reason: Typo
    "We were schooner-rigged and rakish, with a long and lissome hull ..."

  33. #4583
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    41,916

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank! View Post
    (grumble grumble)

    If Atlantic 3,200 kms wide (ruff approx) @ 8cm per yr. - takes 20 mill. yrs to sweep all the sediment water* under the continents.

    in 62 mill years it would get 3x goes at taking the salt out of the ocean

    not enuff???

    OK, be kind to me - its a long time since i did any simple math in order to win a bet.....


    *sediment water as opposed to water in the main body of the ocean
    Wrong ocean Frank, subduction is happening around the Ring of Fire this year, the Atlantic is spreading.

    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 08-13-2018 at 05:46 AM. Reason: duplicate image
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  34. #4584
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,500

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    I like to get to the bottom of things

    I have a certain amount of respect for the quantity and quality of the people involved

    I agree - it is a fascinating ride - at times .....

  35. #4585
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    26,884

    Default Re: Scientific knowledge

    The earthquakes in Indonesia? Australia moving north.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •