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Thread: Inflatable Outriggers

  1. #1
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    Default Inflatable Outriggers

    I had been working on something different to sail on a local river ( http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...46#post5329046 ) when the good contributors here led by P-I-Stazzer-Newt help me realised outriggers on my 12' x 30" open canoe would work just fine. Thought I should start a new thread as now miles away from a Triscarf.

    The idea being nothing permanently to be added to the canoe with a strap on frame providing everything needed to sail

    I had everything I needed when serendipity intervened and Amazon emailed me about these.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Aqua-Marina...qua+marina+sup



    At 30 including P&P I ordered a set.

    This is the original rig and CAD of the new design






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    Last edited by tink; 09-01-2017 at 02:12 AM.

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    Have made some good progress with the build
    The mast is able to rotate very freely - this is be bearing and support



    This unit the mast partner, aka fixing and leeboard mount. It will be strapped to the canoe. The blue line tightens the white rope and tightens the akas to the frame. The plan being that I can launch from a jetty with one aka and float in place and the fit the second one afloat. I have checked the ergonomics of this on land and it works well.


    Fitted to the canoe



    At the moment I am using very cheap DIY ply which I have lying around. Once happy I will recreate with some top grade marine ply I have to hand.



    I don't post to get a response, just to record my thoughts.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    There you go, you are on your way to a functional double-outrigger. I used inflatables to convert my single-outrigger into a double for an Everglades Challenge. I settled on large inflatables then being sold at the Watertribe organization website. They were built in conjunction with Jack's Plastic Welding, a maker of white-water rafts. Watertribe sold two versions I believe: a sort of ugly but functional 14 footer (medium volume), and a nicely designed 16 footer with a higher volume (about 400 pounds flotation). There was an option for two air chambers to provide some safety margin, and the attachment points could be ordered custom. For mine (16 ft, 2 chambers, custom attachments) that brought the price to $800 each, which I was willing to pay only because I thought I was going to have the adventure of my life :-) . Mine worked superbly, getting me through a squall in trying conditions. Watertribe apparently doesn't sell these anymore, don't know why. Perhaps the market was opening up and more people were building amas for tinkerers? The teardrop-shaped amas seem to be popular for kayak sailing, but I have some aesthetic prejudice against them, I admit. Here is a link for some photos of them on my boat: http://www.wtarzia.com/Trimaran_conversion.html

    At the ama size you are building, at some point you might consider some fiberglas-over-foam versions -- almost as light, far more rugged, you build to order, and an interesting build experience! Have fun! -- Wade

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    There you go, you are on your way to a functional double-outrigger. I used inflatables to convert my single-outrigger into a double for an Everglades Challenge. I settled on large inflatables then being sold at the Watertribe organization website. They were built in conjunction with Jack's Plastic Welding, a maker of white-water rafts. Watertribe sold two versions I believe: a sort of ugly but functional 14 footer (medium volume), and a nicely designed 16 footer with a higher volume (about 400 pounds flotation). There was an option for two air chambers to provide some safety margin, and the attachment points could be ordered custom. For mine (16 ft, 2 chambers, custom attachments) that brought the price to $800 each, which I was willing to pay only because I thought I was going to have the adventure of my life :-) . Mine worked superbly, getting me through a squall in trying conditions. Watertribe apparently doesn't sell these anymore, don't know why. Perhaps the market was opening up and more people were building amas for tinkerers? The teardrop-shaped amas seem to be popular for kayak sailing, but I have some aesthetic prejudice against them, I admit. Here is a link for some photos of them on my boat: http://www.wtarzia.com/Trimaran_conversion.html

    At the ama size you are building, at some point you might consider some fiberglas-over-foam versions -- almost as light, far more rugged, you build to order, and an interesting build experience! Have fun! -- Wade
    Thanks Wade, I do like you outriggers and would like one day to build a seagoing craft along the lines of yours. Mine is very much a stealth craft for exploring a local river, only 3.2 sq m of sail.

    I was designing foam floats when the e-mail from Amazon arrived and at 30 ($38) including postage I couldn't refuse. The frame, mast, aka and sail are all ready to go, just need the delivery to arrive, any day now. I only expected them to be a short tern solution to test the design but I may be surprised by the quality and hope that they are discounted because they didn't perform as intended on a SUP.

  5. #5
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    Default

    Floats have arrived, seam to be make of a robust material, looks to have a weave pattern but I suspect this is decorative rather than a weave material. They are of what appears to be more robust material than quality UK branded buoyancy bags. The only potential weakness are the welded seams which only have a couple of mm of overlap. In my application the seams would rub if grounded. It is very easy to fit a cover to the bags to protect the seams


    They come with buckles on one float and long straps on the other, which has meant some temporary fiddling before sewing a more permanent solution.





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    Continued
    Because I had some the floats are supported by a drain pipe, I have added end caps functionally at the moment. Will make something more permanent later. The aka attachment is tie wrapped and taped on. About an hour of playing about with the rig and I am ready to go.
    Just need a test window which may be a few weeks





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    I don't post to get a response, just to record my thoughts.

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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    Watertribe apparently doesn't sell these anymore, don't know why.
    The big 14+ foot inflatable pontoons are very common; probably the only trick might be buying as a single. I have some 14ers in the house as part of a catamaran kit. I can see apparently identical ones on the TV series "Bering Sea Gold" where they stuff them at random under seagoing mining rafts to supplant metal pontoons - they drag them up snowy boat ramps and such without puncture. I almost bought a Ukrainian cat which had the double chambers like yours - comes in all sizes in about 2 foot increments. My cat is from Czech Republic but there is a new upstart from Austria with streamlined fluted inverted bows. Some of these have US dealers or Euro HQ will airmail. Also there are a ton of inflatable pontoon boats sold in the US in slightly smaller sizes for fishing or river rafting - must sell single replacements.
    Last edited by rudderless; 09-08-2017 at 04:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    you could always roll your own

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    Quote Originally Posted by rudderless View Post
    The big 14+ foot inflatable pontoons are very common; probably the only trick might be buying as a single. I have some 14ers in the house as part of a catamaran kit. I can see apparently identical ones on the TV series "Bering Sea Gold" where they stuff them at random under seagoing mining rafts to supplant metal pontoons - they drag them up snowy boat ramps and such without puncture. I almost bought a Ukrainian cat which had the double chambers like yours - comes in all sizes in about 2 foot increments. My cat is from Czech Republic but there is a new upstart from Austria with streamlined fluted inverted bows. Some of these have US dealers or Euro HQ will airmail. Also there are a ton of inflatable pontoon boats sold in the US in slightly smaller sizes for fishing or river rafting - must sell single replacements.
    --- I think Europe is ahead in inflatable catamarans, etc. The big Watertribe amas were beautifully designed, the smaller ones less so. I was disappointed to see that Watertribe stopped carrying these, as they seemed to be the best on the [American] market. I guess it was not a good business decision for Jack's Plastic Welding to maintain the design because as yet amas for outrigger canoes must not be a viable market. -- Wade

  10. #10
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    Default

    Four years ago I was laid up with a broken collarbone and had lots of time on my hands. I designed a Proa with inflatable hulls.



    I did a fair bit of research and in was very feasible to make your own floats and I had found suppliers here in the UK. I have long forgotten the details but other people have done a good job of it



    Ignore the instructions here
    http://www.instructables.com/id/Home...flatable-Boat/

    But do look at the comments by vinylgraphics


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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    The problem with those blunt bows is they don't knife thru the waves but effectively bounce up off them. It is so buoyant that it presents a rather flat wetted surface and the pontoons want to bend like a banana as the sail pushes forward. You can see this bouncing the rider overboard in the below video on the mate to my Minicat (has an undeployed jib). First look at the somewhat dorky looking solution from Austria's Happycat to knife thru waves. Their "wavepiercer" hulls use unusually high pressure, bow braces, and probably can be easily ordered http://www.happy-cat.at/en/happy-cat/hurricane/



    Last edited by rudderless; 09-08-2017 at 05:18 PM.

  12. #12
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    Rudderless
    Very impressed with the minicat video, quite amazing for a relatively simple take apart boat.

    This whole inflatable boat thing is very interesting. Design is rarely about being supper create but more about making decisions on what compromises to make.
    The Catapult Catamaran (from back in 1985 520+ having being made and still going very strong here in the UK) compromised weight and size by having fore and aft alloy beams and plastic nose cones.
    http://www.catapultcats.com/index.html



    This is a completely different beast to the minicat at LOA5.00m and all up weight of 81kgs, vs 24kg for the 4.2m minicat.

    Modern boats have developed and are operating at much higher pressure. The catapult just used a camping lilo pump so very little pressure the minicat and happy cat are 0.25 and 0.3 bar respectively. Inflatable SUPs are up at 1.2 bar, with some of that tech you could make a fantastic catamaran.

    Anyway finished my wake up espresso and enough of filling up the internet with my nonsense, I've got a some floats to go and test.

    I don't post to get a response, just to record my thoughts.

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    Last edited by tink; 09-09-2017 at 03:27 AM.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    Did you ever try using the drain pipe by itself and skipping the the inflatable bits?
    R
    Sleep with one eye open.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Williamson View Post
    Did you ever try using the drain pipe by itself and skipping the the inflatable bits?
    R
    I did and am still considering it but when I got an email from Amazon about the inflatable floats for such little $ I took it as sign. Been out testing today and it has worked like a dream. I have video to edit and will post a full report when I get home.
    I have a few ideas spinning around, just drainpipe one side, float and drainpipe the other. Then if I do go over I have the buoyancy on the float to get back onboard and deal with a swamped boat .... just free wheeling

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    Well the first sail went very well, considering it was made from recycled bits lying in the boat shed, some very cheap builders ply, old water bottles duck tape and tie wraps it went phenomenally.
    https://youtu.be/oni-3rJzxqQt
    Positives
    ✔️ floats behaved impeccably, simply provided the extra security I wanted
    ✔️ sailed upwind with good manners, with the board straight up and down he tracked upwind fine with the steering oar (paddle) out of the water (worked best with oar to leeward). Occasionally it would head up and a quick dip of the oar would correct it.
    ✔️ tacking was easy, if unusual, pull the board so it went angled forward, canoe would go head to wind, quick single stroke of the oar took the bow through the wind, return board to vertical. I do have rudder that could be fitted easily but considering the narrow river where I want to sail I think I will keep the oar.
    ✔️ assembled quickly and easily.
    Negatives
    �� one of the floats tried to toe in when pressed, this only happened on one side but I think it was a combination of the float pivot being too flexible (joint made with tiewraps and tape) and too far forward. I added fore and aft brace lines and this cured this.
    �� mainsheet traveler prevented the boom being pulled in enough
    �� did not like to go off wind, this was better when I heeled to lee ward.

    I have a big list of improvements to make things more permanent rather than tie wrap and tape but a great day.

    cheers

    Tink

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    Not much in way of photos but a been for a sail on the Tees
    Launched off the pontoon with the dock side float retracted, cast off and extended float in the river without issue. Was able to reverse the procedure to return. The wind was up and down but managed to sail upwind for a good hour making ok progress up wind. This stretch of river is narrow and tree lined, I doubt many have sailed it before. Mainly steered by board position. In truth could of paddled and made much more progress but with the rig up this was difficult. Returned downwind in a fraction of the time. Too many ideas and improvements to list but good day nothing broke and stayed dry. Happy with my day on the river. No issues with the floats so far and not being careful with them.





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    Last edited by tink; 09-30-2017 at 02:13 PM.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    Though I know this is an "inflatable" thread.....The larger the supporting structures needed for the inflatables, the more sense there is in making a hull out of glassed-over shaped foam, with some light supporting wooden structure inside (also helpful to guide shaping when in the form of a plywood sheerweb). The weight will still be low, and you can get a fairly rugged wave-piercing shape as well. When little supporting structure is needed to maintain hull shape (an ama), then the use of an inflatable makes more sense, if deflated storage space is a strong factor. -- Wade

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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    Quote Originally Posted by rudderless View Post
    The problem with those blunt bows is they don't knife thru the waves but effectively bounce up off them. It is so buoyant that it presents a rather flat wetted surface and the pontoons want to bend like a banana as the sail pushes forward. You can see this bouncing the rider overboard in the below video on the mate to my Minicat (has an undeployed jib). First look at the somewhat dorky looking solution from Austria's Happycat to knife thru waves. Their "wavepiercer" hulls use unusually high pressure, bow braces, and probably can be easily ordered http://www.happy-cat.at/en/happy-cat/hurricane/



    --- The narrator said, "it turns slow" but in those waves and wind, I thought it was coming about pretty well! Nice recovery from the the lee-shore rocks -- a solid boat might not do so well. I wonder if the rig might benefit from less sail twist -- a tighter vang? Did this boat have a board of any kind? -- Wade

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    Though I know this is an "inflatable" thread.....The larger the supporting structures needed for the inflatables, the more sense there is in making a hull out of glassed-over shaped foam, with some light supporting wooden structure inside (also helpful to guide shaping when in the form of a plywood sheerweb). The weight will still be low, and you can get a fairly rugged wave-piercing shape as well. When little supporting structure is needed to maintain hull shape (an ama), then the use of an inflatable makes more sense, if deflated storage space is a strong factor. -- Wade
    Can't agree more, it was the plan until these floats popped into my inbox. For little expenditure in time and $$ I have got out sailing, testing and improving when I don't mind a swim. In a little over a month my build space will be filled with my wooden racing dinghy for winter repairs. I have confidence to keep sailing the canoe over the winter and then will build foam, glass, ply etc floats in the spring.

    Well that is plan A




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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    Nice plan! I will at some point start testing out my latest outrigger by cutting corners and using my two big inflatable amas. I will them gauge how annoying it is topping them up every time I go sailing (two chambers per ama, which must be kept in pressure balance = rather annoying pumping regimen) vs building a set out of foam and glass (although probably I need to build one ama out of wood so that it can be flooded to help righting. So many variables with outrigger design and construction, I hope I never catch anybody saying, "What a cute little simple boat!" :-) ) -- Wade

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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    Nice plan! I will at some point start testing out my latest outrigger by cutting corners and using my two big inflatable amas. I will them gauge how annoying it is topping them up every time I go sailing (two chambers per ama, which must be kept in pressure balance = rather annoying pumping regimen) vs building a set out of foam and glass (although probably I need to build one ama out of wood so that it can be flooded to help righting. So many variables with outrigger design and construction, I hope I never catch anybody saying, "What a cute little simple boat!" :-) ) -- Wade
    Take it as a compliment, Simplicity should be every designers target. It is very hard to achieve Simplicity but looks effortless and easy with hindsight, it rarely is.

    Do you have any details, sketches etc of your new ride?

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    --- The narrator said, "it turns slow" but in those waves and wind, I thought it was coming about pretty well! Nice recovery from the the lee-shore rocks -- a solid boat might not do so well. I wonder if the rig might benefit from less sail twist -- a tighter vang? Did this boat have a board of any kind? -- Wade
    It has sizeable plastic skegs under each pontoon - this shallow draft and beach landing ability steered me away from the more affordable Ukrainian Ducky cats with long centerboard. That, and the fact the US dealer wanted to charge me the same to ship it 2 time zones as Minicat charged to ship 12 time zones. Actually I suggested how Minicat could ship affordably and failed to suggest a relatively cheap option to Ducky.

    On the alleged slow turning, it should turn faster with the jib deployed and left on the "wrong" side until after coming about. I was more concerned about the skilled rider falling off. There isn't much to hold onto, and the buoyant hulls bounce off rather than slice thru big waves. It is nice the bows can kind of kind of banana upwards rather than risk submarining or pitchpoling like a slicing hull.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    Take it as a compliment, Simplicity should be every designers target. It is very hard to achieve Simplicity but looks effortless and easy with hindsight, it rarely is.

    Do you have any details, sketches etc of your new ride?
    --- I was documenting it at Instructables.com ("Car-top Outrigger" -- I have given up on car-topping it as a rule, though the basic hull with beams and ama(s) might come in at around 100 pounds, minus the rudder, board, and rig) but I am now a bit ahead of where I left off. I have to add a page or two covering the construction of the foam bottom over the basic plywood hull. -- Wade

  24. #24
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    This popped up on my face book today, pleased to see I am not alone in my thoughts. A schooner lug rigged adjustable leeboard proa similar to mine was on outrigger sailing canoes was also posted recently.




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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    Love your simple sail rig setup, Tink.
    You wouldn't happen to have pictures showing the underside of it, would you?
    Is that a electrical conduit bent and fasten with U bolts to the board then fastened to the gunwale?
    Your Leeboard bracket is that homemade and do you just put a pin through the board then through the bracket and pivots?
    With this setup how did it sail.
    Did you find any issues with it?
    Sorry for all the questions.

    Carl

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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    Love your simple sail rig setup, Tink.
    You wouldn't happen to have pictures showing the underside of it, would you?
    Is that a electrical conduit bent and fasten with U bolts to the board then fastened to the gunwale?
    Your Leeboard bracket is that homemade and do you just put a pin through the board then through the bracket and pivots?
    With this setup how did it sail.
    Did you find any issues with it?
    Sorry for all the questions.

    Carl



    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    Have made some good progress with the build
    The mast is able to rotate very freely - this is be bearing and support



    This unit the mast partner, aka fixing and leeboard mount. It will be strapped to the canoe. The blue line tightens the white rope and tightens the akas to the frame. The plan being that I can launch from a jetty with one aka and float in place and the fit the second one afloat. I have checked the ergonomics of this on land and it works well.


    Fitted to the canoe



    At the moment I am using very cheap DIY ply which I have lying around. Once happy I will recreate with some top grade marine ply I have to hand.



    I don't post to get a response, just to record my thoughts.

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    Love your simple sail rig setup, Tink.
    You wouldn't happen to have pictures showing the underside of it, would you?
    Is that a electrical conduit bent and fasten with U bolts to the board then fastened to the gunwale?
    Your Leeboard bracket is that homemade and do you just put a pin through the board then through the bracket and pivots?
    With this setup how did it sail.
    Did you find any issues with it?
    Sorry for all the questions.

    Carl




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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    Quote Originally Posted by rudderless View Post
    The problem with those blunt bows is they don't knife thru the waves but effectively bounce up off them. It is so buoyant that it presents a rather flat wetted surface and the pontoons want to bend like a banana as the sail pushes forward. You can see this bouncing the rider overboard in the below video on the mate to my Minicat (has an undeployed jib). First look at the somewhat dorky looking solution from Austria's Happycat to knife thru waves. Their "wavepiercer" hulls use unusually high pressure, bow braces, and probably can be easily ordered http://www.happy-cat.at/en/happy-cat/hurricane/
    Perhaps the solution here is to graduate from the blimp to the dirigible, or as we prefer to call them here, SOF? There is no reason not to completely close the deck of a SOF and install an air valve. The framework scantlings used for Platt Monfort's Airolite with the more commonly used 7-14 oz nylon or polyester.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Inflatable Outriggers

    Quote Originally Posted by deltafour1212 View Post
    Love your simple sail rig setup, Tink.
    You wouldn't happen to have pictures showing the underside of it, would you?
    Is that a electrical conduit bent and fasten with U bolts to the board then fastened to the gunwale?
    Your Leeboard bracket is that homemade and do you just put a pin through the board then through the bracket and pivots?
    With this setup how did it sail.
    Did you find any issues with it?
    Sorry for all the questions.

    Carl
    This whole sailing unit was made with stuff I had lying about from other projects. The part that you are seeing as electrical conduit is all alloy extrusion. It is actually the front end of a wishbone boom I made for a proa.
    The frame is just held by 1inch nylon straps - one at the fron one at the rear.
    The bracket is a rudder gudgeon for a 20ish foot boat.
    The set up worked well.

    I must stress this is all essentially made from scrap, the plan being to experiment and then when happy with the final configuration I will remake out of wood.

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