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Thread: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

  1. #1
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    Default Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    According to wikipedia, Hanna debate T. Gilmer over Tahiti ketch antecedents as well as with Phillip Rhodes and Chapelle.

    At that time , Gilmer was young generation Naval architecth and I can not find what was the subject.

    İt is inportant for me because I sailed aproximately 750 miles with my boat Tayo Mar , which is Gilmer's blue moon replica.

    Blue moon , light and fast work boat as Falmouth Quay , 22 feet long but 42 m2 sail area gaff cutter yawl.

    I am the decision stage, to build a wooden boat , bigger than Blue Moon , Tahiti ketch is the form that I like and I beliave so suitable for Aegean sea.

    Tahiti just opposite of Blue moon , high and deep but more storege area and easily sail over 20 knots that I beliave.

    I read lot of thoughts in this form but I rally wonder why Gillmer and Hanna debate? Both of famous designer dead and ıf anyone have info about this subject is appreciate

    thanks.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Tahiti is the slowest boat I ever saw.
    Consider a 28' Venus if you are serious about Tahiti.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    They probably debated while they were still alive, lol. Please forgive me. If Tahiti is the boat you really want, then by all means build her. There are, however, newer designs that are easier and quicker builds, and that sail better. George Buehler's Grizzly Bear comes to mind, one of his newer and better sailing designs, as does Paul Fisher's Martlet. There are also many other good designs to choose from. Good luck with whatever you build - John

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    People knock Tahitis as being slow, but any boat of that displacement and wetted surface area with that limited amount of sail area would be just the same. Friends of mine own a steel version Tahatiana, rigged as a gaff cutter and no slouch. I would probably go for the Venus 28 also, if draft not an issue. An Atkin Eric or Inga are other double enders you might consider.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    I believe the debates were about the boats of Florida that were used by sponge divers of Greek decent. They had a strong resemblance to Tahiti. Other designers insisted that Tahiti was based on the sponge boats. Hanna vehemently denied this claim and it remained a source of contention for him all his life. I don't know why Hanna was so offended by this, but it really bothered him - John

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by Landlockedvoyager View Post
    I believe the debates were about the boats of Florida that were used by sponge divers of Greek decent. They had a strong resemblance to Tahiti. Other designers insisted that Tahiti was based on the sponge boats. Hanna vehemently denied this claim and it remained a source of contention for him all his life. I don't know why Hanna was so offended by this, but it really bothered him - John
    What did he say it was based on?

    Chapelle hated Hanna, by the way. I suspect that may be why he wrote so little about the sponge boats.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Hanna's design book goes into some detail on the discussion.

    From what I can see, there is nothing 'wrong' with a Tahiti. Its a conventional double ended hull form. In his case the firm bilge gives it interior space, the heavy displacement the same, and a good motion. That firm firm bilge is also seen in UK workboats that had to take the ground in drying harbours, not a bad idea for a cruising boat either.

    It might be slower than some others in lighter air, but thats because its sail area is conservative, even with the bigger of its rigs. If you sail in high wind areas, you might be glad of that, or if you're sailing solo at night in a tradewind. But thats just a rig, and its fundamentally an adjustable. But then if your getting into all that, it might be better to go with a different design as it knocks on with scantlings etc.

    It might be less close winded than a similiar boat with a deeper keel or higher aspect keel form, but you might be glad of the shallower depth when you get somewhere interesting cruising.

    Many of the voyages accross the Pacific were completed with owners happy, which is significant, but the Pacific is relatively benign, as is an Atlantic crossing, and most things can be sailed accross. Although most cruising is spent at anchor not sailing, I would still want to have a look at the sail area to displacement ratio carefully and compare it to others and what I was used to and wanted to handle for the intended journey, that would be only focus to check with a Tahiti. Getting out from Panama to Galapagos needs alot of sail area to displacement ratio or you would have to factor in tankage and engine efficiency etc.

    Its interesting that even new 45fters in the Solent get used as motorsailers, as much under engine as sail, even in good sailing conditions...the owners unable to handle the boats and rigs or just chose not to. Even though they have very efficient hull, rig and foils, they seem to just get motor sailed around mostly: engine on, main up to reduce rolling and genoa furled. Just an observation.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 08-26-2017 at 06:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    I'd chose an Atkin Erin for hull form but perhaps change the rig.

    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  9. #9

    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    I believe Hanna did not credit any particular kind of craft, but my memory is a little sketchy there. Hanna was very much a blue collar kind of guy while Chapelle and L. Francis Herreshoff were "yachtsman" who disdained Hanna's simple lines and building methods. This led to constant conflict between them. LFH went so far as to say Tahiti was "unsafe." I guess those circumnavigations did not count for much in Herreshoff's eyes.

    Hanna was good friends with Weston Farmer. When Hanna first published his plans for Tahiti it was named Neptune and generated no interest. Years later Farmer suggested Hanna should rename his boat Tahiti and publish the plans again. The rest, as they say, is history.

    Chapelle and Herreshoff were marketing their designs to a different clientele. It was a conflict between "yachtsmen" and boaters. They all produced great designs. I agree with Al Mason who believed there was enough room on the water for everyone - John

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Hanna's design book goes into some detail on the discussion.

    From what I can see, there is nothing 'wrong' with a Tahiti. Its a conventional double ended hull form. In his case the firm bilge gives it interior space, the heavy displacement the same, and a good motion. That firm firm bilge is also seen in UK workboats that had to take the ground in drying harbours, not a bad idea for a cruising boat either.

    It might be slower than some others in lighter air, but thats because its sail area is conservative, even with the bigger of its rigs. If you sail in high wind areas, you might be glad of that, or if you're sailing solo at night in a tradewind. But thats just a rig, and its fundamentally an adjustable. But then if your getting into all that, it might be better to go with a different design as it knocks on with scantlings etc.

    It might be less close winded than a similiar boat with a deeper keel or higher aspect keel form, but you might be glad of the shallower depth when you get somewhere interesting cruising.

    Many of the voyages accross the Pacific were completed with owners happy, which is significant, but the Pacific is relatively benign, as is an Atlantic crossing, and most things can be sailed accross. Although most cruising is spent at anchor not sailing, I would still want to have a look at the sail area to displacement ratio carefully and compare it to others and what I was used to and wanted to handle for the intended journey, that would be only focus to check with a Tahiti. Getting out from Panama to Galapagos needs alot of sail area to displacement ratio or you would have to factor in tankage and engine efficiency etc.

    Its interesting that even new 45fters in the Solent get used as motorsailers, as much under engine as sail, even in good sailing conditions...the owners unable to handle the boats and rigs or just chose not to. Even though they have very efficient hull, rig and foils, they seem to just get motor sailed around mostly: engine on, main up to reduce rolling and genoa furled. Just an observation.
    I believe at the time Tahiti was designed, there were those who argued that no one need sail to windward when engines were becoming smaller and more reliable. That might explain the small rig and shallow keel.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    I would like to say something else about Hanna. He designed boats that just about anyone of his time could build. This was at a time when my grandfather and his brothers, like so many other ordinary guys, built their own houses, foundations, wiring, plumbing and much of their own furniture, and then overhauled the engine and transmission on the old truck.

    Tahiti was designed for the ordinary guy wth big dreams. She had a vee hull, sawn frames, simple lines, concrete ballast, and a rig that would not get a farmer from Missouri killed the first time he ran into heavy weather in open water. There have many partially completed hulls found in old sheds and barns in rural areas over the years. They were begun with enthusiasm but, for whatever reason, were never finished. These old, abandoned projects are testaments to the degree that Hanna was able to inspire so many. The boats that made it accross oceans show how well it all worked.

    I admire Hanna and his legendary creation - John
    Last edited by Landlockedvoyager; 08-26-2017 at 07:12 PM. Reason: Too many typos!

  12. #12

    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Good choice, Peter. I'll bet you could build it, too! - John

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by Landlockedvoyager View Post
    Chapelle and L. Francis Herreshoff were "yachtsman" who disdained Hanna's simple lines and building methods. ... Chapelle and Herreshoff were marketing their designs to a different clientele. It was a conflict between "yachtsmen" and boaters.
    I'm completely unfamiliar with the personal relationships among these designers or the way they judged each other's work, but the central message of "American Small Sailing Craft" is that traditional workboat types, built with economical, widely available materials and without unnecessary refinements of design, offer a practical way for a sailor of modest means to obtain a seaworthy and lasting boat. "Yachtiness" was the antithesis of what Chapelle advocated.
    Peter Belenky

  14. #14

    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    I will concede that Chapelle studied and admired traditional working craft. Designs of his, such as Corsair and Glad Tidings were based on fishing schooners. He still moved in different circles than Hanna, and his cruising designs were more for professional yards than for home builders. Perhaps I overstated my case by using the word "yachtsmen", but the differences between Hanna and Chapelle were real. I find it a pity as they both were excellent designers - John

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    The Tahiti is a pretty darn heavy burdensome boat. I understand Hanna's decision to give her a short rig. I just disagree with it. It needs a lot of power to sail in any light to moderate wind. A lot of Tahiti's have been built with a larger rig....I think Hannah actually designed a larger rig, though somewhat reluctantly. with a respectable sail area they sail respectably. it is a cruising boat not any sort of racer after all. Quite a roomy cruiser for it relatively modest overall dimensions. The ends are balanced, the displacement is pretty well spread out, she has a fairly good mix of form stability and ballast stability. I am a big fan of the divided rig but not so happy with Hanna's application. On any smallish ketch the mizzen is a little bit in the way.Hanna made the cockpit almost unworkable. The design was intended to inspire sailors to build and sail offshore. Perhaps no single design was more influential...igniting the dream.
    The rig as designed was pretty simple and somewhat crude, even for the day, intended to stand through a storm. A more efficient rig...larger....planed to diminish the "in the way" element. In keeping with tradition I'd opt for the gaff ketch more or less of the same pattern but with a larger main and a topsail.

    Both booms should be raised a little further off the deck to allow stowage of a dinghy on the cabin top and a hard dodger/between the aft end of the cabin to the mizzen. The mizzen boom should be raised enough to diminish the ducking under irritation.
    The boats built with a cement ballast keel tended to be a little tender, at least the one I sailed was. Concrete looses a lot of effectiveness because of its light weight. By itself it is only about twice the weight of water and it looses a lot because of its own buoyancy. I'd plan for an iron or even lead keel. Stiffness translates directly into the ability to carry sail....and seaworthiness.....I do not want a tender boat....not a rock either, but certainly Iwant to be able for an offshore boat to work to windward in at least a near gale force 7...it does not need to be fast or pretty, but you have to be able to push if its necessary.
    I like the Tahiti. but if I were spending many 10's of thousands of dollars and perhaps 10,000 hours building a boat, I'd want the final product to be right. I would consider building a Tahiti with a larger and slightly more refined rig and a somewhat more evolved deck layout for better easier living.

    There is another thread about motor-sailors. Perhaps with a substantial engine and the original rig she would make fine motor sailor.

    Many of those individual designers did not like each other.....L.F Herreshoff did not like Hanna, or Chappelle, or Ray Hunt, Chappelle did not like Hanna, Gilmer did not like Hanna and V/V, Billy Atkin I think got along with most of them....interesting but not that important.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..



    A nice one to see what a Tahiti can be.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    If I am not wrong, thaiti means " fast " in Greek . If true, funny paradox because everyone says how slowshe is.

    Why I am intersting with Tahiti Ketch ?

    In fact , I am happy with my blue moon replica, I have different of sail alternatives for different weather condidtions.

    But First, thank you all for full knowledge . I am happy to find somebody to ask and I am impressed the level of experience and intelligence. Not only for this thread, I learned lot of things about the wooden boats and sailing with them.

    I am not sure can I sail untill the Galapagos but sounds good, my first goal is Aegean sea , lot of Greek islands and Turkish shores.

    Aegean is not a diffucult sea but diferrent becaus of geography. İt is like open sea but , due to the volcanic texture, lot of islands , penisulas and high mountains which are change and effect the wind speed and directions. All year but especially summer time wind blows from north , north - east and between 20 and 40 knots. Due to the Dardanels, there are local currents sometimes more then two knots. In Dardanels, it is aproximately 4 knots towards to Aegean. This strong current effect maybe all North Aegean. I mean, due to these geographic and sea conditions, generelly wind and wave directions can be different. Sometimes without any wind , you can across the waves just like blow 30 knots.

    Ofcourse there are more difficult conditions at other seas but I know only this part of the seas. Aegean.

    Again I am happy with my boat alone and I like solo sailing and again Aegean is so suitable such kind small Gaff cutter yawl.

    I have 14 hp Yanmar and only 100 USD I spend for fuel, Istanbul to Mediterranean border Gökova. It is cheap when you enter the marinas etc.

    Problem is , this summer my wife and doughters find out that , what a pleasure is ..

    Empty beachs, sun, cristal clear water , fresh sea foods , rakı , uzo,(Greek and Turkish alchol dirink , always dirink cool or together with ice . When yo add the water ,color turns to white ) cool white wine ...

    This is the reason that I need a bigger one , no more than 30 feet wooden long keel gaff cutter yawl or ketch. Easy to built because I am planning to finish it untill the next summer.

    Infact , double enders are not so suitable for hot Aegean summer days because cock pit is so narrow. But Tahiti' s fulush deck type is so suitable . When you anchor a small bay , you can but your table and chairs on the deck instead cock pit. Olso a small hech just over the kitchen can provide the easy food service. �� More storage area is important because for example bike is important as dinghy. Short mast and rig can be suitable for Aegean meltemi which is start to blow every day at 3 o' clock p.m.

    Again thank you to spend time for may question and I am happy to hear different boats better and suitable than Tahiti..

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Erin .

    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    All that rigging puts me off......not to mention that aft scaffolding for a radar and windmill, what a way to ruin the look of a boat.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Usually folks see a Bermudian rig like that and figure it is simpler than a gaffer.
    I see a lotta stuff that is not really simple. The jib and furler alone may cost more than my whole rig.
    The tower in the back?...mizzen envy.
    While cruising I've had plenty more crap on my mizzen than radar. We've had bicycles, fish traps, seagull OB,cockpit awnsl....

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by ersin boke View Post
    If I am not wrong, thaiti means " fast " in Greek . If true, funny paradox because everyone says how slowshe is.

    Why I am intersting with Tahiti Ketch ?

    In fact , I am happy with my blue moon replica, I have different of sail alternatives for different weather condidtions.

    But First, thank you all for full knowledge . I am happy to find somebody to ask and I am impressed the level of experience and intelligence. Not only for this thread, I learned lot of things about the wooden boats and sailing with them.

    I am not sure can I sail untill the Galapagos but sounds good, my first goal is Aegean sea , lot of Greek islands and Turkish shores.

    Aegean is not a diffucult sea but diferrent becaus of geography. İt is like open sea but , due to the volcanic texture, lot of islands , penisulas and high mountains which are change and effect the wind speed and directions. All year but especially summer time wind blows from north , north - east and between 20 and 40 knots. Due to the Dardanels, there are local currents sometimes more then two knots. In Dardanels, it is aproximately 4 knots towards to Aegean. This strong current effect maybe all North Aegean. I mean, due to these geographic and sea conditions, generelly wind and wave directions can be different. Sometimes without any wind , you can across the waves just like blow 30 knots.

    Ofcourse there are more difficult conditions at other seas but I know only this part of the seas. Aegean.

    Again I am happy with my boat alone and I like solo sailing and again Aegean is so suitable such kind small Gaff cutter yawl.

    I have 14 hp Yanmar and only 100 USD I spend for fuel, Istanbul to Mediterranean border Gökova. It is cheap when you enter the marinas etc.

    Problem is , this summer my wife and doughters find out that , what a pleasure is ..

    Empty beachs, sun, cristal clear water , fresh sea foods , rakı , uzo,(Greek and Turkish alchol dirink , always dirink cool or together with ice . When yo add the water ,color turns to white ) cool white wine ...

    This is the reason that I need a bigger one , no more than 30 feet wooden long keel gaff cutter yawl or ketch. Easy to built because I am planning to finish it untill the next summer.

    Infact , double enders are not so suitable for hot Aegean summer days because cock pit is so narrow. But Tahiti' s fulush deck type is so suitable . When you anchor a small bay , you can but your table and chairs on the deck instead cock pit. Olso a small hech just over the kitchen can provide the easy food service. �� More storage area is important because for example bike is important as dinghy. Short mast and rig can be suitable for Aegean meltemi which is start to blow every day at 3 o' clock p.m.

    Again thank you to spend time for may question and I am happy to hear different boats better and suitable than Tahiti..
    I am gathering materials slowly to build my own Blue Moon. I have greatly enjoyed seeing yours.

    I wondered why you wanted another boat, but you simply need a larger one so you can bring your ladies! Excellent!

    I wish you luck on your quest for a new boat. I cannot wait to see what you choose.

    Peace,
    Robert

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    'The Book of Boats' has a fine chapter about a 29' Gillmer knockabout ketch that would be suitable for solo (?) sailing in the breezy, open Aegean. I'd scan a couple of the lines drawings but my scanner doesn't like me: https://www.amazon.com/Book-Boats-Jo.../dp/0877420815
    "It's a pirate's life for me. Savvy??"

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Seems like most of the Mediterranean has double-ended wooden workboats that are modifications of the old lateen rigged types. Could you buy such a hull and modify it to take something like the Tahiti rig? Might be a shortcut to what you want.


  24. #24
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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    I think I find the subject that Gillmer and Hanna disagree.. For a few months I investigate Tahiti Ketch to built in Turkey. especially in this forum there are tremendous information regarding the Tahiti .. Especially last two thread ' double enders' and ' wave form theory'

    After read these threads , I thing that , Gillmer and Hanna disagree about the hull shapes.. According to my limited knowledge and investigation , Full keel such as English work boats, keel is deeper at the aft of the hull. But at the same time the shape of the aft turn to wineglass crossection as transom stern.

    I mean at the aft of the keel there is an triangular thin portion together with blade . I think , this portion of long keel is working as a plane wing. This means that there is a pressure difference between stern and aft and this can be cause pushing the hull forward.

    Maybe due to that , sail area increasing did not solve the problem about why Tahiti is slow or similar boats just like west sail. Because hull shape did not permit to go faster..

    Dear Johnw, sorry for late answer. This is an option and for this purpose , this weekend we planned a voyage to Cyprus from Mersin with a tirhandil (Aegean sponge boat ) to understand her behavior under the open sea.. The voyage will be 72 miles approximately in Mediterranean sea. I can shere the photo of the boat and views from voyage here.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    I look forward to it! To my eye, Mediterranean workboats have better lines than the Tahiti ketch.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    In the category of double-ended cruising ketches, no one has yet mentioned Philip Rhodes's Dog Star https://astro.temple.edu/~bstavis/pr/dogstar.htm



    or the longer, narrower L. Francis Herreshoff Diddikai



    Either one would be a faster passagemaker than a Tahiti ketch.
    Peter Belenky

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Diddikai is said to have been designed with too little ballast.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    I think an Atkin Eric or Dragon would suit your needs well, but i admit to being biased. It might be heresy, but I think I could improve on the Eric lines just a touch and end up with something really nice.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    I just happen to have come across my copy of "Saga of Direction". Direction being the little double-ender made (in?)famous by Rockwell Kent in his story N by E. The boat was widely panned as being slow and tender until Charles Vilas got his hands on her. Re-ballasted and re-rigged as a marconi cutter instead of the original gaff the boat was much improved, at least according to Mr. Vilas.
    Steve

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    I have a PDF of "17 designs from the board of John G Hanna" (Seven seas Press, N.Y. 1971) and the "as designed" sail areas are ocean 422 sq. ft, coastwise 470 sq. ft. In the description it is noted that the sail area can be safely increased to 520 to 540 sq. ft. Now, that is a BIG increase in sail area above the coastwise recommended area, let alone the ocean one.

    Every thing I have read about John G Hanna states that he was a stubborn, can't change his mind character and that he made a genuine mistake in the specification of the sail area for the Tahiti. When this was pointed out to him by (I believe) Billy Atkin, he dug his heels in and insisted that he was right.

    The Tahitania (streched to 32 feet) might be a better compromise.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    There's nothing wrong with the hull - it's a chined balanced double ender of which there are many, big and small. That's not a bad shape for cruising at all. Its's firm bilged, to be expected given the length and displacement. Many traditional boats that worked out coastal UK harbours were so shaped to take the ground more upright. Thats not a bad attribute either if you want to clean her bottom in some far off place without a hauling fee. There's also nothing wrong with relative heavy displacement. This is a cruising boat to carry stuff in at times possibly poor weather. That improves its motion comfort and general 'sea keeping'.

    Sail area to displacement ratio is what we are talking about. And its subjective. It all depends...for the PNW you might prefer looking for a higher SA to Disp ratio. In the Northern Atlantic, off Cornwall in winter you'd be looking for a low number. A conservative number isn't the end all if you aren't building a POGO in the first place and anticipate cruising downwind accross the Atlantic-Pacific-Indian ocean, after surviving a great war. That's what she was for. A conservative sail area will also mean your not reefing down every night or every squall, and she'll be less frequently overpressed. You can also argue that a heavy displacement boat with balanced form and a rig that can keep it pointing upwind, can hove too in poor conditions and doesn't need to outmanouver them. This boat was designed before domestic weather forecasting became very accurate. A low rig height will reduce heeling and is perhaps necessary if its sitting on a boat without a massive keel weight and depth of keel (this was to be built in backyard). So while rig size is related to the boats form, waterplane, displacement etc it is also somewhat adaptable to what the owner will be doing with it. Lets not forget that all boats are slow. Do you respect the team who Race to Alaska in 5 days, or a guy solo who endures and enjoys it for 4 weeks? I'd rather speak to the guy who took 4 weeks over it, he would have seen more stuff. There are racers and there are cruisers and they have different mentalities: a racer saves time, a cruiser spends time.

  32. #32

    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Usually folks see a Bermudian rig like that and figure it is simpler than a gaffer.
    I see a lotta stuff that is not really simple. The jib and furler alone may cost more than my whole rig.
    The tower in the back?...mizzen envy.
    While cruising I've had plenty more crap on my mizzen than radar. We've had bicycles, fish traps, seagull OB,cockpit awnsl....
    Aren't you confusing 'simple' to use and maintain (as long as you can afford it) with 'inexpensive' (as long as you're happy to make stuff yourself). Many gaff rig sailors go on about the cost of jib furlers etc, but one of these lasts 30+ years within minimal maintenance costs, whereas the miles of rope on a gaffer needs replacing regularly, then there's all the blocks etc. Having sailed and maintained both, I'm not convinced. Low tech (i.e. cruising rather than racing) Bermudian rigs, provided given regular maintenance, are pretty cost effective over the life of the vessel.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Here are the lines for the steel version of the Tahiti ketch:



    As you can see, there is almost no salient keel. I maintain this is because the boat was designed to be powered to windward, rather than sailed. If you don't like to run the engine a lot, I'd choose a boat with a midsection more like the Blue Moon design. For comparison, here's an Atkin design about the same size:



    Such a boat would be much more weatherly.
    Last edited by johnw; 01-05-2018 at 02:22 PM.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Whangarei Northland New Zealand
    Posts
    61

    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Sir Very well said and directly to the heart of the matter...

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dorset, UK
    Posts
    711

    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Prior to the availability of engines, working off a prevailing lee coast, in relatively heavy weather, most British workboats share Hanna's bilge section and relative draft. Most don't resemble the shape typified by a Colin Archer.

    I accept if we start looking at AVS etc, it produces a narrow deep boat, but that in itself can lead to boats that heal constantly and trip when thrown sideways. A boat more reliant on secondary stability than primary stability usually rills more downwind. A tradewind voyage is downwind, Force 3-5 in the south North Altantic for instance. Deep draft is a liability in shallow coral waters. You could argue that puttig a high aspect keel on it will just add drag as the conservative rig won't generate the lift from insufficient area/ aspect ratio. So you might argue that the boat, while not to your taste, as a whole is however balanced.

    Its an orange. If you don't want an orange build an apple. But there's no point criticising an orange because it isn't an apple. I reckon a 50-80 yr old could bug out in a Hanna with a standard rig and a Lister diesel, quite happily and avoid alot of boat yard costs. As a 20 year old he'd beat to weather, now as a 60yr old he'll just throw another log on and wait untill tomorrow and see if the weathers fair. Sometimes the point of doing something is to slow your life down. I think Hanna's ketch holds potential karma for some people.

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