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Thread: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Prior to the availability of engines, working off a prevailing lee coast, in relatively heavy weather, most British workboats share Hanna's bilge section and relative draft. Most don't resemble the shape typified by a Colin Archer.

    I accept if we start looking at AVS etc, it produces a narrow deep boat, but that in itself can lead to boats that heal constantly and trip when thrown sideways. A boat more reliant on secondary stability than primary stability usually rills more downwind. A tradewind voyage is downwind, Force 3-5 in the south North Altantic for instance. Deep draft is a liability in shallow coral waters. You could argue that puttig a high aspect keel on it will just add drag as the conservative rig won't generate the lift from insufficient area/ aspect ratio. So you might argue that the boat, while not to your taste, as a whole is however balanced.

    Its an orange. If you don't want an orange build an apple. But there's no point criticising an orange because it isn't an apple. I reckon a 50-80 yr old could bug out in a Hanna with a standard rig and a Lister diesel, quite happily and avoid alot of boat yard costs. As a 20 year old he'd beat to weather, now as a 60yr old he'll just throw another log on and wait untill tomorrow and see if the weathers fair. Sometimes the point of doing something is to slow your life down. I think Hanna's ketch holds potential karma for some people.
    The question is, does he want an orange or an apple? The proposed use does not involve sailing long distances in the trade winds, which is a thing the Tahiti Ketch does very well. As for Archer's designs, his Redningsskřytes were for rescuing the sort of boat you're talking about from a lee shore.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Archer

    In 1892 several of his pilot boats rescued many fishing boats in a severe off shore gale on the SE coast. After a design competition, he received an order to design a rescue boat for the Norwegian Society for Sea Rescue (Norsk Selskab til Skibbrudnes Redning). This boat on 47 feet[7] proved so seaworthy that 33 were built. Thus Archer and his shipyard became known for building durable and safe ships.
    The reason his boats became famous was that they were both faster and more seaworthy than the traditional boats of their day.

    Ersin has had a good experience with the wineglass sections of his Blue Moon. I therefor doubt he would be dissatisfied with and Archer-type double ender.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Colin Archer introduced carvel planking on sawn frames and outside ballast to pilot lapstrake boatbuilders stuck in their ways.

    The boats hugely increased in size and displacement from the pilots standard 28ft double enders (with bilge profiles opposite to Tahiti) and so they were more able to intrinsically cope with poor weather. As the size and displacement increased the relative beam required for stability could be reduced and fore and aft flare reduced to reduce wave making resistance and pitching. The pilots bought them because they were inherantly quicker with much longer waterlines, bigger rigs, better accommodation and more motion comfort from the higher displacemnt. By drawing a double ender, Archer chose a naturally balanced hull form when heeled over a faster but less easily inately balanced transom design.

    The big heavy Rescue boats rescued small open boat fisherman in small open boats (think Caledonia Yawl) when caught in unexpected weather due to inadaquate displacement, sail area and size to make to windward. The open boat favoured by the fisherman were also at risk of downflooding.

    Fundamentally it was the construction technology which had become the norm in the south UK and France...carvel...which enabled big heavy strong boats to be built (necessary in the UK to chase fish now more offshore) which enable a change in size that was the enabler of bigger more capable sea boats that was the most significant game changer the scot introduced at his yard.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 01-05-2018 at 06:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Colin Archer introduced carvel planking on sawn frames and outside ballast to pilot lapstrake boatbuilders stuck in their ways.

    The boats hugely increased in size and displacement from the pilots standard 28ft double enders (with bilge profiles opposite to Tahiti) and so they were more able to intrinsically cope with poor weather. As the size and displacement increased the relative beam required for stability could be reduced and fore and aft flare reduced to reduce wave making resistance and pitching. The pilots bought them because they were inherantly quicker with much longer waterlines, bigger rigs, better accommodation and more motion comfort from the higher displacemnt. By drawing a double ender, Archer chose a naturally balanced hull form when heeled over a faster but less easily inately balanced transom design.

    The big heavy Rescue boats rescued small open boat fisherman in small open boats (think Caledonia Yawl) when caught in unexpected weather due to inadaquate displacement, sail area and size to make to windward. The open boat favoured by the fisherman were also at risk of downflooding.

    Fundamentally it was the construction technology which had become the norm in the south UK and France...carvel...which enabled big heavy strong boats to be built (necessary in the UK to chase fish now more offshore) which enable a change in size that was the enabler of bigger more capable sea boats that was the most significant game changer the scot introduced at his yard.
    The Vikings were building much bigger boats more than a thousand years ago. The big change wasn't size, it was outside ballast. Swedish builders were producing qute large ships with caravel planking by the 17th century. The Scandinavians were not at all backward when it came to boat building technology, they just used whatever technique was best suited to the vessel they were building.

    Norwegian vessels tended to be small because Norway was governed by Denmark, which wanted to keep the farmers on the land, so restricted their travel. Farmers were also often fishermen, like the fishing and crofting villages in Scotland. They kept the boats light, so that they could be brought on land during the winter. Following independence in 1905, restrictions were removed.
    Last edited by johnw; 01-05-2018 at 08:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Belenky View Post
    In the category of double-ended cruising ketches, no one has yet mentioned Philip Rhodes's Dog Star https://astro.temple.edu/~bstavis/pr/dogstar.htm


    Dog Star was my first thought as well once the original poster opened the door to designs other than Hanna's Tahiti.

    There is one for sale in Canada which offers some additional photos, I think the house might be built a bit high - http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1999.../#.WlJWNkxFwqI

    The larger Tidal Wave is listed in Maine and offers a few more images of the concept - http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1930...s#.WlJVukxFwqI

    There are also a number of videos of a Rhodes Traveller, the fiberglass member of the design family, that were taken in Turkey - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=s.y.+bogle

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Its an orange. If you don't want an orange build an apple. But there's no point criticising an orange because it isn't an apple. I reckon a 50-80 yr old could bug out in a Hanna with a standard rig and a Lister diesel, quite happily and avoid alot of boat yard costs. As a 20 year old he'd beat to weather, now as a 60yr old he'll just throw another log on and wait untill tomorrow and see if the weathers fair. Sometimes the point of doing something is to slow your life down. I think Hanna's ketch holds potential karma for some people.
    Could not agree more. I recall many cockpit conversations as to why this or that boat was "superior" to that or the other, and it took a while to notice the guys who did not participate in these talks, were usually the ones with outdated old designs, who above all else, seemed very content with their choice. Having gone down the design spiral, it does not take long to realise that all boats compromise something, and what might be perfect for one, will be wrong for another; no such thing as a wrong boat, just one not best suited to its purpose. A small modern diesel with a large auto-prop will keep a Tahiti plodding to windward comfortably, rather than an overcanvassed boat sailing on its ear, when codgerdom comes calling, i know what one i would choose . Junk rig would be a suitable option.
    EDIT: If Hanna refused to admit his mistakes,(as pointed out, low SAD is only a bad thing in low wind areas) it should be fairly pointed out that W.Atkin was no better; a few designs spoken in high merits and promises of performance, once built, never to make it into the design catalogue. It may have been a sign of the times when such rivalry was obvious, that admitting a mistake may have been jumped on by the others with unknown consequences.
    Last edited by skaraborgcraft; 01-08-2018 at 08:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Could not agree more. I recall many cockpit conversations as to why this or that boat was "superior" to that or the other, and it took a while to notice the guys who did not participate in these talks, were usually the ones with outdated old designs, who above all else, seemed very content with their choice. Having gone down the design spiral, it does not take long to realise that all boats compromise something, and what might be perfect for one, will be wrong for another; no such thing as a wrong boat, just one not best suited to its purpose. A small modern diesel with a large auto-prop will keep a Tahiti plodding to windward comfortably, rather than an overcanvassed boat sailing on its ear, when codgerdom comes calling, i know what one i would choose . Junk rig would be a suitable option.
    EDIT: If Hanna refused to admit his mistakes,(as pointed out, low SAD is only a bad thing in low wind areas) it should be fairly pointed out that W.Atkin was no better; a few designs spoken in high merits and promises of performance, once built, never to make it into the design catalogue. It may have been a sign of the times when such rivalry was obvious, that admitting a mistake may have been jumped on by the others with unknown consequences.
    "Superior" in this context can be taken to mean 'fit for purpose.' I believe you're right, the Tahiti was intended to motorsail to windward. If you'd rather go to windward without the motor on, it's not fit for purpose.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Gillmer 29' ketch suitable for singlehanding in open waters like the Aegean: gillmer.jpggillmer2.jpg
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    "Superior" in this context can be taken to mean 'fit for purpose.' I believe you're right, the Tahiti was intended to motorsail to windward. If you'd rather go to windward without the motor on, it's not fit for purpose.
    How close to the wind do you need to sail? I have heard the argument so many times that Colin Archers are not good enough to windward as to be a liability, but they were designed to tow small fishing boats off lee shores in gale conditions. Will a Tahiti or Colin Archer point as close to a tall masted bermudian rigged yacht with a deep bulbed keel?, no. Many will drone on and on about windward performance if it were the only thing that mattered.....bermudian rigs do that to people...

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    How close to the wind do you need to sail? I have heard the argument so many times that Colin Archers are not good enough to windward as to be a liability, but they were designed to tow small fishing boats off lee shores in gale conditions. Will a Tahiti or Colin Archer point as close to a tall masted bermudian rigged yacht with a deep bulbed keel?, no. Many will drone on and on about windward performance if it were the only thing that mattered.....bermudian rigs do that to people...
    I've sailed with a lot of different rigs, thank you very much, and I've even sailed on the original Blue Moon. I think Ersin would like something that sails as well to windward as the Blue Moon, since that's what he's sailing now. The Tahiti won't do that. A Colin Archer or Atkins cutter will, whether rigged gaff or Bermudian.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    In the interests of variety I submit a design commissioned by me from Antonio Dias.

    kathleen-gee-cutter-sail-plan-no-pram.jpgkathleen-gee-yawl-sail-plan-illustr.jpg
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I've sailed with a lot of different rigs, thank you very much, and I've even sailed on the original Blue Moon. I think Ersin would like something that sails as well to windward as the Blue Moon, since that's what he's sailing now. The Tahiti won't do that. A Colin Archer or Atkins cutter will, whether rigged gaff or Bermudian.
    Have you read "A cruise to the Hebrides" by Maurice Griffiths ? (its in the back of Little ships and shoal waters). Slow and a little full in the bow was mentioned,but so to was the ability to tack out of sea lochs surrounded by rocks in a strong wind.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    How close to the wind do you need to sail? I have heard the argument so many times that Colin Archers are not good enough to windward as to be a liability, but they were designed to tow small fishing boats off lee shores in gale conditions. Will a Tahiti or Colin Archer point as close to a tall masted bermudian rigged yacht with a deep bulbed keel?, no. Many will drone on and on about windward performance if it were the only thing that mattered.....bermudian rigs do that to people...
    Erling Tambs, who was perhaps the first person to cruiser a Colin Archer (?), wanted better upwind performance when he almost lost Teddy on a lee shore around Holland. He also wanted better upwind performance when he finally lost the boat on a lee shore in NZ.

    Tambs replaced his sunken Colin Archer with another one, which pitchpoled and cost the life of a crewman.

    People had been talking about windward performance for many years before bermudan rigs came along - just as one example the challenges put out by the gaff schooner America were all for windward/leeward courses. People even at that time referred to upwind performance as the true test of design, so such thinking is clearly not influenced by a rig that was not popular in that era.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    88 Tahiti Ketches have been built in France between 1959 and 1983...

    https://www.vieuxgreementsdecanet.com/tahiti-ketch/

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by PierreDesvaux View Post
    88 Tahiti Ketches have been built in France between 1959 and 1983...

    https://www.vieuxgreementsdecanet.com/tahiti-ketch/
    And I'm sure many of the owners have been happy with them, it's all a matter of priorities.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Have you read "A cruise to the Hebrides" by Maurice Griffiths ? (its in the back of Little ships and shoal waters). Slow and a little full in the bow was mentioned,but so to was the ability to tack out of sea lochs surrounded by rocks in a strong wind.
    I have not, was that in Lone Gull?

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Tahiti Ketches have inspired perhaps more sailors to venture offshore than just about any other single small boat design. It is worth noting that many designers of the period produced designs which were clearly at least partially inspired by the Tahiti. It is heavy, and roomy for its size and type. It has a reputation of being relatively comfortable. It is also under rigged. This was not all that uncommon. Racundra was remarkably similar in concept, a double ender about 30 ft long, with a small ketch rig....all inboard, and centre-board this time in stead of a full length keel. The ideas of sea keeping in small craft those days were in their infancy. The tendency was to be modest in the face of an angry sea. Nobody expected a sailing vessel even larger vessels to average more than 100 nm per day normally. I note that W.H.Tilman was pretty happy with 100 nm/day or better. I also note that Cimba's rig was cut down before going offshore.
    The Tahiti needed a larger rig, I'd suggest perhaps 650 sq/ft. a larger mizzen and longer bow sprit and topsail, but I have not really looked at the numbers. She needed power to gain sailing speed in light winds so the long relatively inefficient keel could develop lift and power to push in heavier winds as well. The gaff rig allows the sails to all be in smaller bits and relatively down low. I believe the Tahiti had a Concrete keel option. This is a no go unless it is designed to provide the same level of stiffness as a keel of heavier material Cement is relatively light and will loose considerable weight under water because of its own buoyancy. The stiffness is vital to allow the boat to carry sail in a blow.
    If I were looking for a boat..... I'd consider a Tahiti...The good qualities are worth it and the not so good qualities are at least somewhat fixable. This partially refers to a hand carved sailing model my Father made for me when I learned how to swim, which was inspired by the Tahiti, which by the way sailed well and was pretty fast.
    Few , if any, of the Great Old Designers of that period ever calculated stability. Mostly they just used comparative ratios and comparison with other vessels which were arguably similar.
    If I were considering comparing boats of that size, I'd suggest the Hess Bristol Chanel Cutter 29 or 32 (of the same size-ish) to be the baseline. It is designed to meet all the requirements of stiffness and weatherlyness and ample sail area.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I have not, was that in Lone Gull?
    No - she was a yacht named Rawanah - designed and built for a retired British civil servant as a summertime "home" for cruising.

    There are some pictures of her here, about 3/4 of the way down:

    http://www.eventides.org.uk/kylixpic.htm

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    One of the early articles in WB Magazine (Number 8) is about JOSEPHA, a Marconi rigged Tahiti ketch that a friend circumnavigated. I sailed with him from Miami into the Caribbean and found her comfortable and easy sailing, although there wasn't much windward work. But I was twenty years old and there was just the two of us.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Erling Tambs, who was perhaps the first person to cruiser a Colin Archer (?), wanted better upwind performance when he almost lost Teddy on a lee shore around Holland. He also wanted better upwind performance when he finally lost the boat on a lee shore in NZ.

    Tambs replaced his sunken Colin Archer with another one, which pitchpoled and cost the life of a crewman.

    People had been talking about windward performance for many years before bermudan rigs came along - just as one example the challenges put out by the gaff schooner America were all for windward/leeward courses. People even at that time referred to upwind performance as the true test of design, so such thinking is clearly not influenced by a rig that was not popular in that era.
    I agree. I once sailed from Madiera to Tenerife in my 25ft bermudian cutter, took 4 days, my friend in his 25ft gaffer took 7 days as his boat had dismal windward performance "in comparison". But he sailed that little engineless gaffer as far south as Senegal and as far north as Greenland. I will agree pointing ability can be a great thing, but can lead to compromises in other areas that make it ,to some, a requirement not at the very top of the list. To each their own.
    I have friends who own a steel Tahitana, rigged as a gaff cutter, better upwind than the ketch, and a bomb-proof cruising home in severe weather. It was not designed to win races.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    I'd agree that a 'standard' build would be a Hess, Gartside or Irens/ Burnett Zinnia.

    I've been to the Aegean once in the summer on the Turkish side. There's no (zero) wind and a flat calm in the morning and evening, and a Force 6-7 at lunchtime/ early afternoon. That 'meltimi' wind and wave meant business. Everything I saw was motoring in the morning calm to a cove or next harbour around the corner. Siesta'd during the strong meltimi, then motored to a Greek or Turkish bar in the evening. Just saying. That was my impression of Aegean cruising and regional living. A conservatively rigged Tahiti without massive draft, with a thumper, would actually suit that region. It was a Greek double ender in the USA built my migrants, that inspired Hanna in the first place.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 01-10-2018 at 05:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    In the interests of variety I submit a design commissioned by me from Antonio Dias.

    kathleen-gee-cutter-sail-plan-no-pram.jpgkathleen-gee-yawl-sail-plan-illustr.jpg
    Kathleen Gee would have considerably more room than a Blue Moon with 6' headroom and sufficient sail area to actually move in light airs. A good compromise between the two, Hanna and Gillmer.
    .
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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    That is a very beautifull boat Peter. At the 4 ton/ 24ft LOA (serrafyn) size it's the best one.

    Its got more headroom than Hess's Serrafyn, and a transom (more aft space) over Gartside's 24ft glued double ender 'Hanna' which probably matters at the size and usage. Its all there.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    I considered buying this one some years ago....



    built in 1957, and suffering from years of neglect, i passed. I had got used to the 3ft draft of the Waterwitch and level drying out, and suddenly 4ft+ and legs seemed a hassle and limiting. Im quite sure that the Tahiti would out point a triple keeled waterwitch which made quite a lot of lee-way when hard pressed, but still a boat i would consider today if cruising with shallow water options. This one is up for grabs for very little money, remove the lee-boards and build in some proper lifting foils if going to windward is your thing.



    A lot of cost difference between building a 7,000lb boat and one that weighs 18,000lb, and a proven offshore record and circumnavigations.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    I'd agree that a 'standard' build would be a Hess, Gartside or Irens/ Burnett Zinnia.

    I've been to the Aegean once in the summer on the Turkish side. There's no (zero) wind and a flat calm in the morning and evening, and a Force 6-7 at lunchtime/ early afternoon. That 'meltimi' wind and wave meant business. Everything I saw was motoring in the morning calm to a cove or next harbour around the corner. Siesta'd during the strong meltimi, then motored to a Greek or Turkish bar in the evening. Just saying. That was my impression of Aegean cruising and regional living. A conservatively rigged Tahiti without massive draft, with a thumper, would actually suit that region. It was a Greek double ender in the USA built my migrants, that inspired Hanna in the first place.
    Hanna said that was not the case. From post 5 on this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Landlockedvoyager View Post
    I believe the debates were about the boats of Florida that were used by sponge divers of Greek decent. They had a strong resemblance to Tahiti. Other designers insisted that Tahiti was based on the sponge boats. Hanna vehemently denied this claim and it remained a source of contention for him all his life. I don't know why Hanna was so offended by this, but it really bothered him - John

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    It explains in the book "A ketch called Tahiti", that Hanna was aware of the "Greek sponge boats" of his native Florida; yet he never stated that they were anything of an inspiration. May be they were not, or maybe he drew what he liked possibly from subliminal memory.....does it really matter? The fact people are still building this boat today to go cruising must say something more than its lack of speed and upwind ability (as originally rigged).

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    I just turned back from sailing between Cyprus to Mersin Turkey. I sailed with a ' tirhandil ' 35 years old. She was carry all traditional shape as hull except the deck. Rig was not enough and not well designed . But more importsnt than this , without the pover, sail or engine , she is labour (or roll which one is the correct word to explain ) with short draft .

    Maybe due to this short draft difficult to go winward direction. I mean a traditional sponge boat is not suitable for me. I know Gillmer's ketch and there is one in İstanbul. Also L.Hess BCC .

    I decided that I should find a Tahiti Ketch close to Turkey as possible and sail with her and owner. If I can find one in Italy or France and ıf I can sail with owner of her will be great .

    During my voyage I found a good and small shipyard in Adana. The owner of shipyard is a very famous doctor in Adana and he produced wooden boats for himself. He produced 5th sailing boat and first one is a Folkboat and the other ise Burce Robert's 43 feet center cockpit and he is building 45 feet Dixi in his small sihipyard. I am planning to construct the hull there .

    Now that is the time to find the suitable design for my requirements. I send an email to mr. Dias, to cirtise Tahiti for me.. But he did not answer yet. The idea can be reduculus for him maybe I do not know.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    John Hanna was influenced by the Greek boats.

    He first saw 'American Girl' in Florida, drew and sketched it, studied it. Then bought it. It was a double ended ketch built for a Greek. The greek owner had adapted the design from 'back home' with more mid ships freeboard. 6 months later Hanna has plans for Orca available. He then bought another one, Beachcomber (which looks much like Tahiti) and took the lines off it. Beachcomber was built by a greek. The title of the lineshe took off is written as 'lines of a fishermans boat, built 1919 by Demo George, a greek builder, who followed the model of the greek sponge boats from the mediterranean with some modifications. 28ft x 9'4 x 3' draft. He kept that one for two years then produced the plans for Neptune which became Tahiti, which was drawn a foot wider for live aboard comfort amoung other changes as he saw to improvet on Beachcomber. These 'modified' greek sponge boats that had begun to be adapted to American conditions, he clearly loved, owned, took the lines off and ran with. Chuck Paine did the same thing with the Scottish fishing boats, Oughtred with the Norwegian double enders etc. His work was original but he was clearly influenced.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 01-10-2018 at 06:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    I note that Bolgers "Sweet Chariot" design is generally similar in hull shape with the length pulled out to 37 feet. I am not a huge fan of the Bolger rig. I think it is perhaps a little tall and I suspect the sails will be a little more work to reef than a more conventional plan. It could be modified. He talks of her sailing at sharp angles of heel and suggested adding about a ton of ballast to the keel. The Masts were considerably heavier than those in the design. With some tweaking I think this might be a really good boat.

  31. #66
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    BC Coast
    Posts
    3,486

    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    I certainly cannot speak about Waterwitch, but my leeboards work well going to windward in anything that can be called a wind.....

  32. #67
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Istanbul , Turkey
    Posts
    118

    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Let me why I interested in Tahiti ketch ?

    easy to built than other famous designs.

    30 feet but enough storage and live area.

    due to the length, so suitable as weekender for İstanbul but also for monthly voyages to Aegean sea.

    Due to the length , marina cost is less

    less maintanence cost due to the length.

    especially the flush deck model is an alternative to small cockpit .

    this deck can be used for outside living area during the anchor.

    again flush deck type Tahiti , gives more room for solar panels.

  33. #68
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Northern NSW Australia
    Posts
    65,405

    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    William Atkin's flush decked Thistle .

    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  34. #69
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    4,074

    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by ersin boke View Post
    If I am not wrong, thaiti means " fast " in Greek . If true, funny paradox because everyone says how slowshe is.

    Why I am intersting with Tahiti Ketch ?

    In fact , I am happy with my blue moon replica, I have different of sail alternatives for different weather condidtions.

    But First, thank you all for full knowledge . I am happy to find somebody to ask and I am impressed the level of experience and intelligence. Not only for this thread, I learned lot of things about the wooden boats and sailing with them.

    I am not sure can I sail untill the Galapagos but sounds good, my first goal is Aegean sea , lot of Greek islands and Turkish shores.

    Aegean is not a diffucult sea but diferrent becaus of geography. İt is like open sea but , due to the volcanic texture, lot of islands , penisulas and high mountains which are change and effect the wind speed and directions. All year but especially summer time wind blows from north , north - east and between 20 and 40 knots. Due to the Dardanels, there are local currents sometimes more then two knots. In Dardanels, it is aproximately 4 knots towards to Aegean. This strong current effect maybe all North Aegean. I mean, due to these geographic and sea conditions, generelly wind and wave directions can be different. Sometimes without any wind , you can across the waves just like blow 30 knots.

    Ofcourse there are more difficult conditions at other seas but I know only this part of the seas. Aegean.

    Again I am happy with my boat alone and I like solo sailing and again Aegean is so suitable such kind small Gaff cutter yawl.

    I have 14 hp Yanmar and only 100 USD I spend for fuel, Istanbul to Mediterranean border Gökova. It is cheap when you enter the marinas etc.

    Problem is , this summer my wife and doughters find out that , what a pleasure is ..

    Empty beachs, sun, cristal clear water , fresh sea foods , rakı , uzo,(Greek and Turkish alchol dirink , always dirink cool or together with ice . When yo add the water ,color turns to white ) cool white wine ...

    This is the reason that I need a bigger one , no more than 30 feet wooden long keel gaff cutter yawl or ketch. Easy to built because I am planning to finish it untill the next summer.

    Infact , double enders are not so suitable for hot Aegean summer days because cock pit is so narrow. But Tahiti' s fulush deck type is so suitable . When you anchor a small bay , you can but your table and chairs on the deck instead cock pit. Olso a small hech just over the kitchen can provide the easy food service. �� More storage area is important because for example bike is important as dinghy. Short mast and rig can be suitable for Aegean meltemi which is start to blow every day at 3 o' clock p.m.

    Again thank you to spend time for may question and I am happy to hear different boats better and suitable than Tahiti..
    Can I suggest that you contact Paul Gartside, he'd be the best current designer of traditionally styled and built cruising boats that I know.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  35. #70
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    156

    Default Re: Hanna agaist Gillmer..

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    The Vikings were building much bigger boats more than a thousand years ago. The big change wasn't size, it was outside ballast. Swedish builders were producing qute large ships with caravel planking by the 17th century. The Scandinavians were not at all backward when it came to boat building technology, they just used whatever technique was best suited to the vessel they were building.

    Norwegian vessels tended to be small because Norway was governed by Denmark, which wanted to keep the farmers on the land, so restricted their travel. Farmers were also often fishermen, like the fishing and crofting villages in Scotland. They kept the boats light, so that they could be brought on land during the winter. Following independence in 1905, restrictions were removed.
    The Danes used the same types of vessels as Norway. The hull types "designed by Hanna, Archer and Gilmore were in use by fisherman long before those gentleman were born. Work boats didn't require external ballast because they filled their boats with fish, or whatever needed to be transported. The cost of an external ballast would be a ridiculous expense for a fisherman.

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