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Thread: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

  1. #1
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    Default Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    So I'm looking a building some pirogues for my family. A friend whose husband is a ship captain and who builds and repairs boats occasionally recommended this product https://www.fgci.com/item/137704/KIT...nt-2-1-Ratio-/ . I'm going to be gluing 1/4" plywood for the bottom and 1/8" lumar/doorskin for the sides.

    He recommended epoxying the lumar with some of this stuff thinned out with some isopropal 99% alcohol, then going over it again with a normal mixture of 2:1 (keeping the mixture in a bucket of ice to keep the temps down so you can work with it longer) and then for all the joints make a "peanut butter" with the mixture adding fiberglass filling to it. Finally putting a varnish over the wood to protect the epoxy. Any thoughts on this? Thanks.

    Guillaume

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    Hi, Guillaume. You're asking about a branded epoxy resin/hardener combo, and then about bonding panels with that product in a series of applications with a filler in one layer to make what is called a "fillet," generally, among boat builders.

    The most common process like what you are describing is called the "stitch and tape" method. You could learn a lot by googling that phrase.

    You don't say what kind of fiberglass would be added to make the putty-like mix, but whatever it is, it wouldn't add any significant structural strength to your joint. Stitch and tape would do a fillet and then lay a fiberglass tape over that, often all in one application, before things set up. The tape, when done right, and added to both sides of the joint, makes the whole assembly stronger than the wood it bonds.

    All the best to you. Keep asking. Keep posting.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    Thanks. I appreciate the comments!

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    Doorskin is usually not very waterproof and cheap stuff.
    Thinning epoxy with alcohol , or anything, is not generally accepted as best practice.
    "Icing" epoxy is also a strange practice. Cooling epoxy WILL extend it's working time, but it will also make it seem thicker and harder to work with. If you want more working time, it is better to use a "slower" hardener.
    Heating epoxy up to seventyish when working in a cold place is very common, cooling it down...not so much.
    good luck
    bruce

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    Thanks. I appreciate the comments! I think that is why he suggested expoxying the whole side panels. To strengthen them. He also thought they would look much better than regular plywood.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    Here you go. This is the best reference on epoxy & boats available. And you no longer even have to buy it. It's available as a free download. All of your questions are answered within. By people who know... not some random selection of aficionados on the internet.

    http://www.westsystem.com/the-gougeo...-construction/
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    Thanks.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    The description of the epoxy as merely 'resistant' to water gives me some pause.
    "When I was a boy with never a crack in my heart."

    -W. B. Yeats

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    The description of the epoxy as merely 'resistant' to water gives me some pause.
    Might just be 'truth in advertising'. None of the typical formulations are truly 'waterproof'.

    It is, however, a brand I don't recognize.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    wonce upon a time the test for water proof was a boiling test. Epoxy can't do the but resorcinol can.
    On top of that you also get into definitions water resistant vs water proof. After all apply enought pressure and time and you may be able to pass some wate molecules though epoxy.
    Zane

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Doorskin is usually not very waterproof and cheap stuff.
    Thinning epoxy with alcohol , or anything, is not generally accepted as best practice.
    "Icing" epoxy is also a strange practice. Cooling epoxy WILL extend it's working time, but it will also make it seem thicker and harder to work with. If you want more working time, it is better to use a "slower" hardener.
    Heating epoxy up to seventyish when working in a cold place is very common, cooling it down...not so much.
    good luck
    bruce
    Wiz,

    Nothing "strange" about icing epoxy. Placing a mixed epoxy container in a cool mix of water and ice is a fairly common practice to extend the working time in hot weather. It has zero effect on the final product and saves mixing time and effort, especially for builders working alone. It also allows use of fast hardener without epoxy being wasted due to overheating or even burning in the cup. Maybe not too important on small boat jobs but a big time and money saver on larger ones. I make a foam box with a top opening to fit the epoxy cup just for this reason.
    Tom L

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    That is, "laminating resin," which never really cures hard--it remains tacky and is designed to facilitate laying up multiple layers of 'glass/reinforcement. Its a specialty formulation. You want a, " finish," resin to use for scarfing, gluing and coating.

    Kevin
    I've used over 50 gallons of FGCI 2:1 laminating epoxy and it is not like an unwaxed polyester resin that remains tacky. It fully hardens when cured; just like any other 2:1 epoxy resin. Their products have never failed me in two boat builds over 15 years. (No affiliation with them, just a satisfied customer)

    jeff
    "You only live once--but if you work it right, once is enough."

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    I've used over 50 gallons of FGCI 2:1 laminating epoxy and it is not like an unwaxed polyester resin that remains tacky. It fully hardens when cured; just like any other 2:1 epoxy resin. Their products have never failed me in two boat builds over 15 years. (No affiliation with them, just a satisfied customer)

    jeff
    It's got, "laminating" written right on the label fer chrissakes.
    Nonetheless, I stand corrected and will delete my post.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zane Lewis View Post
    wonce upon a time the test for water proof was a boiling test. Epoxy can't do the but resorcinol can.
    On top of that you also get into definitions water resistant vs water proof. After all apply enought pressure and time and you may be able to pass some wate molecules though epoxy.
    Zane
    Well it's going on a pirogue which will be in the water for not more that 2 or 3 hours and my fat butt. Pressure and time in water not really an issue--but this is my first boat so what do I know. I do appreciate the thoughts though.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    It's got, "laminating" written right on the label fer chrissakes.
    Nonetheless, I stand corrected and will delete my post.

    Kevin
    Sorry for my ignorance. Laminating implies what in this context? I really don't know.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    "Laminating" epoxy just has to do with viscosity. Usually it means that it is thin enough that it will reasonably easily saturate fiberglass cloth, which can be a slow process with some thick epoxy formulations. For a job like this, it should be fine. Forget the diluted epoxy part. It both weakens the product dramatically, and is totally not needed for bond strength. Any regular epoxy formula designed for use on boats will stick perfectly well all by itself. Deep penetration is not needed and usually just a product of BS marketing hype.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    Wiz,

    Nothing "strange" about icing epoxy. Placing a mixed epoxy container in a cool mix of water and ice is a fairly common practice to extend the working time in hot weather. It has zero effect on the final product and saves mixing time and effort, especially for builders working alone. It also allows use of fast hardener without epoxy being wasted due to overheating or even burning in the cup. Maybe not too important on small boat jobs but a big time and money saver on larger ones. I make a foam box with a top opening to fit the epoxy cup just for this reason.
    That's been my (somewhat limited) experience, as well. This was more often the case before "tropical" or "slow hardening" hardeners became available. One phenomenon with chilled epoxy resin, however, is that if the temperature differential between the resin and the atmosphere is great enough, condensation will occur on the surface of the epoxy (like the side of a cold beer can on a hot day) and the moisture will turn the resin cloudy white. When the resin cures, after a short while, it will be clear again. This is how we know that epoxy is moisture-permeable!

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    That's been my (somewhat limited) experience, as well. This was more often the case before "tropical" or "slow hardening" hardeners became available. One phenomenon with chilled epoxy resin, however, is that if the temperature differential between the resin and the atmosphere is great enough, condensation will occur on the surface of the epoxy (like the side of a cold beer can on a hot day) and the moisture will turn the resin cloudy white. When the resin cures, after a short while, it will be clear again. This is how we know that epoxy is moisture-permeable!
    Cold epoxy can create condensation in warm humid conditions. This is not a problem with freshly mixed epoxy though. The cooling effect is simply not enough to cause that, even in the warm/hot and humid conditions of the southeastern US. The water/ice bath can only retard reaction and the epoxy will still be above ambient temperature and does not reach the dew point. I'm sure its possible to overpower the chemical reaction with enough ice and a method to lower the epoxy mix temperature below ambient but that is probably difficult to do and not likely in any typical work situations I am familiar with. In hot weather while using fast hardener, the problem is getting enough cooling, not too much. Of course, you can just use very slow hardener but waiting on an epoxy job to set up often makes that undesirable.

    Condensation can happen when left over epoxy is placed in a freezer and taken out in humid conditions for later use. Freezing of epoxy also does not affect ultimate strength. Even a freezer will not prevent the mix from eventually reacting, but only slows it down. This is dependent on the particular epoxy and varies from one brand or formulation to another.

    As always, learn the characteristics of the material you are using and make appropriate choices.
    Tom L

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    Thanks for all the thoughts and advice. Hopefully starting a build this month.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    So these are the plans I'm planning on using: http://www.lsuagcenter.com/~/media/s...801pirogue.pdf

    A couple of questions. I'm assuming the flat part of the sides goes on the bottom and the side that narrows towards the middle goes on top, correct? And why do they cut it narrower towards the middle of the boat? I've seen other plans where both top and bottom are the same distance across the sides (not including the ends).

    Thanks

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    Wait, I see now the bottom of the side goes narrower not the top. Wouldn't that make the bottom curve up at the center and down at the ends? That sounds counter-intuitive.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    Cut out small scale paper patterns from the plans and tape them into the shape of the boat. You will see that draft(rocker)is opposite to what you imagined.
    Tom L

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Anyone use this product? Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    Cut out small scale paper patterns from the plans and tape them into the shape of the boat. You will see that draft(rocker)is opposite to what you imagined.
    That's an idea!

    I'm guessing it flattens out as the middle of the sides is pushed out.

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