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Thread: Do Dems NEED global warming?

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Anyone who knows me, here and offline, knows I'm an equal opportunity curmudgeon.
    So many questions, so little time.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    Anyone who knows me, here and offline, knows I'm an equal opportunity curmudgeon.
    You know, I've been following your contributions for around ten years now, and I'm not convinced that's true. But in any case, you've dodged the point. Allow me to pose the first question more directly: what do you know of Mr Gore's personal carbon budget, including any offsets?

    What are you doing about it?




  3. #73
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Any bets? Two posts before Ish quotes a 19th-century philosopher or a "dear friend"...
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Any bets? Two posts before Ish quotes a 19th-century philosopher or a "dear friend"...
    Hmmm... does Jung count as "19th century"? If not, I might take your bet...

    What are you doing about it?




  5. #75
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    The future is undeniable. Coal is dead. Energy derived from new technologies is unavoidable. The only issue is how long our inaction can delay the inevitable before we are forced to accept it with less grace and preparation.

    Making this about elections and such is nothing more than misdirection. It is yet one more distraction that accomplishes nothing.
    new technologies... Like nuclear power which liberals have killed

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Silly, fluffy straw man.
    Thank you. You saved me the trouble.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    new technologies... Like nuclear power which US hysteria has killed
    There, closer to the truth.
    Following from an accident caused by
    Deficient control room instrumentation and inadequate emergency response training proved to be root causes of the accident
    http://www.world-nuclear.org/informa...-accident.aspx
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  8. #78
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    new technologies... Like nuclear power which liberals have killed
    Nuclear = kick the can down the road - at least what the gov't will allow. If they'd start looking at Thorium reactors, it'd be a different story. Oh - who insures nuclear plants in the US? I'll give you a hint: it's you & me because no insurance companies will touch them.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    i'm in a different group when it comes to MMGW. i don't really believe at this moment that man is the root cause of any sort of global climate problem, but i also believe that we should be doing all of the things proposed to "stop it". in 200 years, if the whole man made global warming turns out to be crap... you will still have a cleaner environment and more natural resources left at your disposal. i'd drive an electric truck if they made one that was affordable, worked as i needed it, and wouldn't leave me stranded on the side of the road b/c there's no way to refuel it between here and there. i'd put solar panels on my roof if there wasn't a 40 year ROI.

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Interesting comment about ROI, Alan. A local firm way up here in the sunless north has done an alternate-energy evaluation of my house, and the ROI for a $15,000 investment in solar electrical panels on my roof is eight years. A two-panel solar hot-water "booster" system has an ROI of five years. Ain't you got no sunshine down thar in Ally-bama?
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    i'm in a different group when it comes to MMGW. i don't really believe at this moment that man is the root cause of any sort of global climate problem, but i also believe that we should be doing all of the things proposed to "stop it". in 200 years, if the whole man made global warming turns out to be crap... you will still have a cleaner environment and more natural resources left at your disposal. i'd drive an electric truck if they made one that was affordable, worked as i needed it, and wouldn't leave me stranded on the side of the road b/c there's no way to refuel it between here and there. i'd put solar panels on my roof if there wasn't a 40 year ROI.
    Do you believe that your GPS is accurate? Do you believe your doctor when he proscribes a drug to cure you or your family. All three are an exactly equivalent belief in science.

    You have the ****ty end of the stick wrt solar panels. The government sponsored scheme that I have bought into, selling surplus power back into the grid, yields as good a return on investment as my other pensions savings plans.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  12. #82
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    40 was a gross exaggeration. it's been a few years since i seriously looked at the numbers. but at that time, the ROI hit right about the time that the life of the panels was up. so about a 0 net.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    It's about a dozen years here, but that's with credits. Credits are significant, but they don't reduce the time by 65%. I certainly believe that credits are a good idea since it moves society in the right direction and reduces pollution to the betterment of us all. Given the cloud cover in the northeast and the AC needs in Alabama, I'd expect it to be a good investment down there.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    40 was a gross exaggeration. it's been a few years since i seriously looked at the numbers. but at that time, the ROI hit right about the time that the life of the panels was up. so about a 0 net.
    That's changed - big time. 1) prices on panels have dropped (though Trump is suggesting an import tariff - which will raise the price of all) & 2) panels last much longer - last I looked US made panels generally had a warranty of 87% efficiency for 25 years. With most systems having about a 15 yr. return - that's 10 years of free electricity + 5-10 more at a somewhat reduced rate.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    That's changed - big time. 1) prices on panels have dropped (though Trump is suggesting an import tariff - which will raise the price of all) & 2) panels last much longer - last I looked US made panels generally had a warranty of 87% efficiency for 25 years. With most systems having about a 15 yr. return - that's 10 years of free electricity + 5-10 more at a somewhat reduced rate.

    yea, prices do seem much better than last i looked. but i would have to get a chainsaw out to make it work for me. i would bet that my roof gets about 2-3 hours of sun throughout the day. that was something i also figured into my estimates last time i checked.

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    yea, prices do seem much better than last i looked. but i would have to get a chainsaw out to make it work for me. i would bet that my roof gets about 2-3 hours of sun throughout the day. that was something i also figured into my estimates last time i checked.
    I can't use my roof either - a ground mount is what I'll be using for this house. Last one a roof mount did work.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I can't use my roof either - a ground mount is what I'll be using for this house. Last one a roof mount did work.


    i don't think i could put one ANYWHERE at my house. maybe in the front yard by the street.... the neighbors would LOVE IT.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    i don't think i could put one ANYWHERE at my house. maybe in the front yard by the street.... the neighbors would LOVE IT.
    Around here, power companies have off-site solar arrays you can buy into for less $ than buying your own.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Around here, power companies have off-site solar arrays you can buy into for less $ than buying your own.

    that sounds strange to me. what's their motivation for this?

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Orca View Post
    I grew up doing environmental science in the Arctic. I personally collected records that are part of the immense body of data that support the conclusion that the Arctic is melting, and that Arctic ice is rapidly diminishing, to the point where the Arctic Ocean will most likely be effectively ice-free within my lifetime. My Inuit friends and family confirm that the climatic changes they are seeing are unprecedented in their oral history. The work of thousands of scientists shows that the planet is warming, without question; that human activity is almost certainly the main cause; and that the consequences will be challenging for many people, our economies, and our civilization.

    Beside them, you are a braying ass, parading your staggering ignorance as if it were some strange virtue.
    Amen. I've been doing scientific fieldwork since the late 1980s on alpine lakes, glaciers, and other systems that show, via statistically checked and peer-reviewed data, the unambiguous effect of climate change. My focus has been to collect data in difficult circumstances with very high standards, while not dying in the process. So the evidence is, for me, not simply a bunch of mathematical geek-work, but the yield of my own experience.

    Here's a lightweight cableway I designed and built, being used during the unprecedented 2012 thawing of the Greenland Ice Cap, to measure meltwater flow in supraglacial channels. For the hardware and a detailed field manual, I charged about $1500, which is a hell of lot less than the cost of the 'copter to get it out there and back. It worked so well that a NASA/UCLA group bought a larger one for which I billed about $2500. Definitely getting rich here.



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  21. #91
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    that sounds strange to me. what's their motivation for this?
    Cleaner power. Vermont (& other states) have set goals for % produced by renewables. In VT, IIRC, it's 80% by 2025. Because we have access to Hydro-Quebec, we're already close to 50%.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    . . . while not dying in the process.
    Good idea.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  23. #93
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip-skiff View Post
    It's a bit much to endure propagandistic rubbish and abuse from people who have done nothing beyond binging on lunatic TV and pecking their keyboards.
    I've admired your work before, and I know hydrologists who would have loved access to it back in the day. We are in complete agreement on denialistas​.

    What are you doing about it?




  24. #94
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Chip-skiff, you invented a cable gizmo, then flew all that way just to play with your toy boat? I hope is was at least made outta wood... <wink, grin>
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  25. #95
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

  26. #96
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    that sounds strange to me. what's their motivation for this?
    Changes their business model into something which will have an ongoing presence. Think of it as the management structure of an apartment building which has now sold off rental units as condos.

    They have an ongoing financial relationship with all those customers who'd have otherwise bought their own rooftop units and been lost to them. Now, not only do they very likely make a margin on the cost/sale of the energy, but they've an ongoing revenue stream to service and replace those solar panels. And the people who bought shares in the solar array fronted all the capital for the project.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  27. #97
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    They're just a step ahead of what the Reps in DC would like to see here in the US. Now, all of a sudden, you have a problem with it?
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Chip-skiff, you invented a cable gizmo, then flew all that way just to play with your toy boat? I hope is was at least made outta wood... <wink, grin>
    I didn't get to go. The Lords of Science took Ph.D. students, basically academic slave labour on a stipend, rather than pay me actual money. The notion that anyone who does this sort of work is getting rich is so insane that it's not even funny.

    Meltwater channels in the ice are incredibly dangerous. If you fall in, you'll be hypothermic in minutes, while being swept downstream towards a moulin, a waterfall dropping into a huge crack— a unique, unsurvivable fate.



    The float is plastic-clad foam. I modified the anchor points so it wouldn't flip in a strong current, owing to a bad design from corporate engineers, which lost a couple instrument packages for the USGS on the Missouri. The sensors (collectively an Acoustic Doppler Current Profiler) cost about $35k. I'm definitely on the wrong end of the business.
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  29. #99
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    B-I-L just retired from a career as an oceanographic research scientist who specialized in acoustic data acquisition. I am familiar with how spendy towed-body equipment can be.

    Cool photo of a moulin, above.

    How come the French got to name all the cool features of ice? <wink>
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  30. #100
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    B-I-L just retired from a career as an oceanographic research scientist who specialized in acoustic data acquisition. I am familiar with how spendy towed-body equipment can be.

    Cool photo of a moulin, above.

    How come the French got to name all the cool features of ice? <wink>
    You should know, you live in an icy old French colony.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  31. #101
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Here in the Acadian French region of Nova Scotia, the French term for ice and snow are glace and neige, often preceded by a string of English profanity. I once asked why the locals cuss in English and was told that the English cuss words are better than the French ones.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  32. #102
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Here in the Acadian French region of Nova Scotia, the French term for ice and snow are glace and neige, often preceded by a string of English profanity. I once asked why the locals cuss in English and was told that the English cuss words are better than the French ones.
    As is true up the road here in New Brunswick.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  33. #103
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Here in the Acadian French region of Nova Scotia, the French term for ice and snow are glace and neige, often preceded by a string of English profanity. I once asked why the locals cuss in English and was told that the English cuss words are better than the French ones.
    Non Merde.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  34. #104
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Non Merde.
    That one, IMHO, being the exception.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  35. #105
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael
    Just out of curiosity, how many kwhs/month in electricity do folks here use in an average month? Because of increased delivery costs my electric bill keeps going up, so I've been taking a closer look. Summer 300, winter 400. Even with a newly installed wood stove the winter tally goes up because of the furnace blower. That's in a roughly 1000 sq. ft house that isn't particularly tight but does have a wonderful southern exposure.
    I am an apartment dweller. Which means that, unlike a home owner, my ability to regulate my energy usage is fairly limited. In the summer I keep my thermostat at 74 degrees. In the winter I keep my thermostat at 68 degrees. My stove and AC are electric. My furnace and hot water tank are natural gas. My apartment (built in the 1940's) has two bedrooms, one bath, kitchen, dining room and living room for a total of 800 sq. ft. My energy provider is Louisville Gas & Electric (LG&E).

    In the last twelve months my highest electric usage was 793 kWh in September 2016. My lowest electric usage was 380 kWh in May 2017. My highest total bill (gas & electric) was $118.40 in January 2017. My lowest total bill was in May 2017.

    Three LG&E generating stations provide electricity to me in Louisville: the Ohio Falls Generating Station (hydro) 101 megawatts, the Cane Run Generating Station (natural gas) 640 megawatts, and the Mill Creek Generating Station (coal-fired) 1472 megawatts.

    Can you imagine how Mitch McConnell, Rand Paul, and all the other Kentucky regressives would SCREAM if LG&E converted the Mill Creek Generating system to natural gas?

    You do realize that wood burning stoves are big polluters? Alongside two-cycle engines and diesel engines.
    .
    Last edited by Tom Montgomery; 08-10-2017 at 05:03 PM.

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