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Thread: Do Dems NEED global warming?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Anyone who believes that climate change is a partisan issue is truly an idiot. Those who chose to deny climate change? Well, to say what I think of those ignorant individuals would get me a time-out.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  2. #37
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    In the longer run canoez it doesn't matter what their foolish opinion is. The planet doesn't care and they'll be dead.
    Of course their grandchildren might have another opinion.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    I linked to this on the other AGW thread. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/c...heat-nlg6dthgh
    Worth a read.
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  4. #39
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Behind a pay wall, but this is enough…….

    "Another day, another leak. The latest contribution to the ideological wars wrenching apart Donald Trump’s Washington is the information collated by a panel of climate scientists from 13 federal agencies that the United States is getting hotter more quickly and more drastically, in large part because of “human activities”. And such is the political climate that the boffins released the findings before they were authorised, apparently afraid that the Trump administration would suppress the figures.
    The president, meanwhile, has sent a letter to the United Nations confirming that the US will pull out of the Paris climate accord. Emails — yes, also leaked — suggest that officials have been told to drop the phrase “climate change” altogether and to refer to whatever is happening out there as………..
    "

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Behind a pay wall, but this is enough…….

    "Another day, another leak. The latest contribution to the ideological wars wrenching apart Donald Trump’s Washington is the information collated by a panel of climate scientists from 13 federal agencies that the United States is getting hotter more quickly and more drastically, in large part because of “human activities”. And such is the political climate that the boffins released the findings before they were authorised, apparently afraid that the Trump administration would suppress the figures.
    The president, meanwhile, has sent a letter to the United Nations confirming that the US will pull out of the Paris climate accord. Emails — yes, also leaked — suggest that officials have been told to drop the phrase “climate change” altogether and to refer to whatever is happening out there as………..
    "
    Here you go, not too long a c&P
    Why Trump’s generals are feeling the heat

    Roger Boyes
    The US military is quietly planning for a warming world that will define foreign policy for years

    Another day, another leak. The latest contribution to the ideological wars wrenching apart Donald Trump’s Washington is the information collated by a panel of climate scientists from 13 federal agencies that the United States is getting hotter more quickly and more drastically, in large part because of “human activities”. And such is the political climate that the boffins released the findings before they were authorised, apparently afraid that the Trump administration would suppress the figures.
    The president, meanwhile, has sent a letter to the United Nations confirming that the US will pull out of the Paris climate accord. Emails — yes, also leaked — suggest that officials have been told to drop the phrase “climate change” altogether and to refer to whatever is happening out there as the result of “weather extremes”.
    Seen from afar, and through the prism of the US press, today’s Washington seems like a throwback to 15th century Spain: a fanatical inquisition on the hunt for heretics and a society in ferment, split between true believers and deniers. Even inside the White House there are plenty of people who, while agnostic about the full effects of man-made global warming, still say policy should be based on recognising fundamental shifts in the climate and planning accordingly. These are the generals and businessmen in the court of Donald who think geopolitically. The word geopolitics derives from the Greek word for earth and hinges on seeing the planet as a whole, not just the relative strength of competing powers.

    No surprise then that Jim Mattis, the defence secretary, identifies climate change (note: not “extreme weather”) as a driver of global insecurity. America, indeed military establishments across the world, has been gaming the consequences of rising sea levels and temperatures for future wars. The US army in particular has problems. Many of its domestic bases are coastal and could be flooded and out of action in 35 years’ time. Mr Mattis, a former Marine general, understands what this means: the loss of sites on which to practice amphibious landings, and disabled airfields and US coastguard stations.
    That’s only the beginning. Some of the islands on which the US depends in its naval face-off with China will simply be submerged. Elsewhere, the airbase operated by the US and Britain in Diego Garcia, an important staging post for Afghanistan operations, is extremely vulnerable, its protective coral reefs being steadily eroded.
    Most projections start from 2035. Some think tanks may be over-interpreting the strategic consequences of global warming, or blurring the timescales to keep the Paris consensus on climate control targets alive. Yet military thinkers in Asia are taking the threat seriously. The rise of sea levels by one metre, they calculate, would mean the loss of 20 per cent of Bangladesh’s terrain and a catastrophic internal migration of 35 million people. Borders would be unstable, violence a racing certainty.
    Coastal zones are already home to a fifth of the world’s population. New mega-cities cluster and prosper by the sea or in river deltas. The east coasts of China and India could be hit by devastating floods. The Caribbean and central America are likely to be inundated. Small fluctuations in temperature can trigger a shift in strategic perception, bring about a new sense of threat, new shortages or new opportunities that appear to desperate countries to be worth fighting for.
    In the Arctic researchers are watching for the signs of the break-up of the Petermann glacier in Greenland. That large splinter of ice would push up global sea levels by one metre relatively quickly. Navigable passage through a warmer Arctic plainly has commercial advantages, linking China to its western markets, but it will also open up a new area of the world for confrontation: Russia is boosting its northern fleet to protect its claims.
    The only way to deal with the confusion of national interests when the ice melts is multilateral co-operation, perhaps a joint Arctic constabulary to enforce the rules of free passage. Again, the generals are ahead of President Trump in understanding how what he insists on calling a hoax will affect American and western security. Navy strategy will have to change, as will the whole approach to reaching global deals. The Pentagon has ordered its officials to start incorporating climate change into every one of its big decisions, from future rations to the testing of weapons systems.
    As the Middle East gets hotter and drier, so severe drought and famine will increase. We already know where that leads: to insurgencies and a trek towards more prosperous countries. Middle East and north African temperatures projected to warm much faster than the global average, with mean annual temperatures 2C to 4C above the long-term average by the middle of the century, and western armies will have to combine counterterrorism with disaster management. Who will train them to do that?
    The planning has to start now, even if not all the gloomiest predictions pan out. The military advisers to the president have a long wearisome path of persuasion ahead of them. Perhaps Mr Trump will listen and modify his ideas, start to think about how the state should direct investment into the armed forces. Sadly, the US leader will probably only take climate change seriously when his first golf course sinks under the warming water.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  6. #41
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    FTFY

    But how many opponents of “climate action” have actually bothered to read the research that underlays such a popular talking point?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Then there is this : http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/op...e-skeptic.html
    Sponsored by Koch industries with the intent of disproving AGW
    http://www.businessinsider.com/koch-...ge-2012-7?IR=T
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  9. #44
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley
    But how many opponents of “climate action” have actually bothered to read the research that underlays such a popular talking point?
    You must be joking.

    The regressives realize that tackling the human-influenced global-warming problem would require a massive, long-term, internationally-coordinated and costly effort.

    Regressives are ideologically opposed to government spending*, government regulation, and internationally-coordinated efforts. And so they deny the science that indicates the influence of humans behind global-warming. Which is much easier than arguing the merits of their ideology.


    * Not opposed to the spending part so much (just spending on the common welfare) as the taxes required to support spending in a fiscally responsible (conservative?) manner.
    .
    Last edited by Tom Montgomery; 08-10-2017 at 07:11 AM.

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  10. #45
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Nobody denies the climate changes; but their is great discrepancy regarding man's contribution, many more believing it to be infinitesimal than acknowledged by the proponents of carbon taxes.
    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    ^
    You must be joking.

    The regressives realize that tackling the global warming problem would require a massive, long-term, internationally-coordinated and costly effort.

    Regressives are ideologically opposed to both government spending and internationally-coordinated efforts. And so they deny the science. Which is much easier than arguing the merits of their ideology.
    You got to wonder whether their heads are buried in the sand, or in some other place where the sun does not shine.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  12. #47
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    See #43

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    Nobody denies the climate changes; but their is great discrepancy regarding man's contribution, many more believing it to be infinitesimal than acknowledged by the proponents of carbon taxes.
    Got a link to justify and prove the "many more"?

    You will understand that I'll not be holding my breath whilst you search.
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  14. #49
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Just out of curiosity, how many kwhs/month in electricity do folks here use in an average month? Because of increased delivery costs my electric bill keeps going up, so I've been taking a closer look. Summer 300, winter 400. Even with a newly installed wood stove the winter tally goes up because of the furnace blower. That's in a roughly 1000 sq. ft house that isn't particularly tight but does have a wonderful southern exposure.



    Guess what Al Gore's usage is in just one of his houses. Over 19,000.

    http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA679.html

    As to AGW, yeah I'm sure human gas emissions do have an impact. It's a little difficult, however, to take the Democrat preacher seriously about the sin of adultery when he's having an extra-marital affair.

    What to do about AGW? Maybe because I studied geology for my science electives, and realize that climate change has a complex array of poorly understood contributing factors that are always changing, I don't panic about it. Has it, in sometimes untoward ways, become a political football? Clearly. What PR person managed to get the wording changed from "global warming" to "climate change"? A stroke of genius! It's such a friendlier phrase!

    My prescription:

    Use less in your personal life. If the price of solar continues to decline I'll eventually put a solar array in way of that southern exposure and be able to thumb my nose at the electric company. Walk, ride a bike, take public transport, buy a more efficient car etc.

    Keep encouraging public policy toward cleaner fossil fuels and alternative energy, possibly to include new nuclear technologies. I know the opposite is currently in fashion in the current administration, but that will pass.

    Most importantly, DON'T PANIC! People do goofy things when they panic.
    So many questions, so little time.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Between solar and wood we don't need electric power for hot water Ish. Our house has 3 adults and 2 teens. We average 5 kwa per day.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    So Repugnicans will get redder as the temperature in the pot rises, with no way to jump out to a cooler place? Your leader, Trump, is getting pretty red in the face!
    Last edited by Nicholas Scheuer; 08-10-2017 at 01:16 PM.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    As to AGW, yeah I'm sure human gas emissions do have an impact. It's a little difficult, however, to take the Democrat preacher seriously about the sin of adultery when he's having an extra-marital affair
    Jesus T. Christ Jack, I guarantee you are smart enough to figure out the logical fallacy here! We are talking about objective physical reality, that which exists independently of what anybody thinks, and doesn't go away when you stop believing in it. Mr Gore's personal virtues or vices have absolutely nothing to do with it.

    And if we are to attribute motives based on money, compare the amount of money for research funding to the amount of money made by continued restriction CO2 emissions. Follow the money.

    Again, to quote P.K. Dick: 'Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away'. It's not going away.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  18. #53
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    This is the "hypocrisy" argument. Basically: Oh, look, some scientists somewhere flew to an international meeting, their carbon footprint means that I can poo poo this and that. It is a weak excuse for a lack of curiosity or inaction.
    While I agree 100% - it's a shame that Al Gore doesn't walk the walk. I guess he doesn't see how it gives fuel (coal of course ) to his detractors.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    I'm sorry Keith, but "do as I say, not as I do" has never set well with me. You?

    It's got nothing to do with what I think or do about the issue, and I think it's legitimate to look at one of the main apostles of global warming regarding their personal relationship to the issue. But then, I believe strongly that in order to change the world we have to change ourselves - that being, in the final analysis, all we can really count on.
    So many questions, so little time.

  20. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    I think it's legitimate to look at one of the main apostles of global warming regarding their personal relationship to the issue.
    So basically you are saying "I have no argument to refute this, so I'll attack the messenger" is legitimate and OK?
    If you are not saying that, then you need to come right out and say so.
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  21. #56
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    It is a similar thought exercise as, "If a convicted murderer tells me not to kill anybody, I can go out and kill somebody because he didn't practice what he preached..."
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Nick,

    Did you read what I wrote, my prescription? Use less yourself, and encourage public policy that moves toward alternative energy. I can point out the hypocrisy of the messenger and still do what I think best about the issue.

    P.S. Your and other's responses point to a spooky kind of almost religious fervor about it that isn't helpful, IMHO.
    Last edited by ishmael; 08-10-2017 at 09:40 AM.
    So many questions, so little time.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    ^^^
    So many questions, so little time.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    Nobody denies the climate changes; but their is great discrepancy regarding man's contribution, many more believing it to be infinitesimal than acknowledged by the proponents of carbon taxes.
    Wrong. The vast majority of scientists espouse the mainstream view of climate science, which is that human activity is primarily responsible for most of the warming since at least 1950.

    What are you doing about it?




  25. #60
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    Nick,

    Did you read what I wrote, my prescription? Use less yourself, and encourage public policy that moves toward alternative energy. I can point out the hypocrisy of the messenger and still do what I think best about the issue.

    P.S. Your and other responses point to a spooky kind of almost religious fervor about it that isn't helpful, IMHO.
    I dont boast about driving a low capacity fuel efficient car, nor that we have solar panels on our roof. Dunno what more I could do where I live if I am still going to eat.
    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Al Gore bought a mansion and improved its energy efficiency. The right wingers would not be satisfied unless he lived in a one room apartment, and other owners lived in the un-improved mansion, resulting in net greater energy consumption.

    If Al Gore did live in a one room apartment, then sometime, somewhere, he would be photographed in an SUV, and the right wingers would use it to deny AGW.

    All in all, they are not too bright.
    Your accusation of hypocrisy seems to have a certain fervour.

    I am somewhat pissed with people who take advantage of science by posting on here, yet deny science on topics that their surrogate thinkers have them disagree with. Now that is hypocrisy.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  26. #61
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Who is Nick?
    You called?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  27. #62
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    They keep warning us the poles are gonna melt
    I grew up doing environmental science in the Arctic. I personally collected records that are part of the immense body of data that support the conclusion that the Arctic is melting, and that Arctic ice is rapidly diminishing, to the point where the Arctic Ocean will most likely be effectively ice-free within my lifetime. My Inuit friends and family confirm that the climatic changes they are seeing are unprecedented in their oral history. The work of thousands of scientists shows that the planet is warming, without question; that human activity is almost certainly the main cause; and that the consequences will be challenging for many people, our economies, and our civilization.

    Beside them, you are a braying ass, parading your staggering ignorance as if it were some strange virtue.

    What are you doing about it?




  28. #63
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    I'm sorry Keith, but "do as I say, not as I do" has never set well with me. You?

    It's got nothing to do with what I think or do about the issue, and I think it's legitimate to look at one of the main apostles of global warming regarding their personal relationship to the issue. But then, I believe strongly that in order to change the world we have to change ourselves - that being, in the final analysis, all we can really count on.
    Again, while that may be a legitimate criticism of Mr Gore personally (or maybe not) it's utterly and completely irrelevant to any discussion of the effects of rising atmospheric CO2 levels on climate. If somebody tells me my house is on fire, I'm going to look for smoke or flames, not enquire into his character.

    This is not a problem that will be solved only by individual voluntary action. It's going to take more than that.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  29. #64
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Keith,

    What, in what I've said about how to deal with this, did you not understand? Personal responsibility AND public policy, especially in the current news cycle madness, are both important. Do you seriously think Gore's hypocrisy doesn't have an impact on people whose minds may be undecided about the issue?
    So many questions, so little time.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    It is particularly offensive to state that scientists promote hysteria in order to garner funding . . .
    Indeed. Particularly when the money to be made by the continuing unrestricted use of fossil fuels is VASTLY greater than the total money spent on every kind of research worldwide.

    Do you seriously think Gore's hypocrisy doesn't have an impact on people whose minds may be undecided about the issue?
    Pehaps I'm misunderstanding, but you do seem to keep bringing up Mr Gore's supposed hypocrisy as if it had some bearing on the actual issue, rather than just looking bad.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 08-10-2017 at 10:30 AM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    Do you seriously think Gore's hypocrisy doesn't have an impact on people whose minds may be undecided about the issue?
    There are few who's minds are truly undecided on the issue.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Look, Gore's a rich guy. So far as I can tell, rich guys live in bigger houses than not rich guys, and in my experience, bigger means more expensive to operate. Tougher to heat, tougher to cool, more expensive to do either.

    In addition, the house was built in 1915. For the past 25 years, I've lived in houses that old or older - and I can tell you plainly that it really doesn't matter what retrofits you make, an antique house will never be as energy efficient as one built in the last 15 years which had that as one of its design criteria. It's like asking why a wooden coasting schooner of that era can't deliver general goods at the same price point on the same routes and with the same delivery times as a major container ship would today.

    We can argue about whether Gore should own a 10,000 square foot, 20 room mansion built in 1915 in one of the most prosperous parts of Nashville. Whether he ought to have torn the gracious landmark down, and in its place constructed a super-efficient tiny home amidst a 2.3 acre solar farm. Whether he ought to have sold it to some other rich dude who actually wouldn't have spent any less money on energy ... and probably wouldn't have installed the solar panels which account for about 20% of the building's energy use, or paid premium costs each month to ensure carbon offsets for the electricity he still purchased.

    Point is, though, whether Gore's taken sufficient steps to undercut his own rich guy's carbon footprint or not, he isn't wrong about what's happening to Arctic sea ice. About how "extreme weather events" could lead to flooding of the 9/11 site. About the inexorable upwards march of annual global temperature records. About the impacts on species' survival and migration patterns etc. All that stuff is just factual.

    The question is what, if anything, we'll do about the situation those facts describe.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Personal energy use is not hypocrisy, Jack. Nobody is saying that individuals should not use energy. What climate scientists are saying is that we need to reduce our civilization's carbon emissions. Regardless of how Mr Gore's energy is generated, used, and offset by other measures, his individual lifestyle is not a significant contributor the issue, and may indeed be neutral or better.

    It's kind of too bad that you seem to prefer partisan bitchiness to the mental effort required to understand the difference between individual and societal responsibilities, because we will not effectively respond to the challenge of climate change unless we do so systemically, at the highest levels of national and international organization.

    What are you doing about it?




  34. #69
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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Partisan bitchiness?

    BTW, Gore's mansion is one of two(formerly three, he and Tipper divorced) Gore abodes.

    "If the teacher is not respected, and the student not cared for,

    confusion will arise, however clever one is."

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    So many questions, so little time.

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    Default Re: Do Dems NEED global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    Partisan bitchiness?
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    Gore's mansion is one of two(formerly three, he and Tipper divorced) Gore abodes.
    If you're so certain of your prejudices, then, how about you provide an accurate carbon budget for Mr Gore (including any offsets), a calculation of its contribution to warming as a percentage of global GHG emissions, and an explanation as to what either figure has to do with the well-recognized need to address global warming at the systemic rather than individual level. I don't think you know the numbers, but hey, you might surprise me.

    But until then, yeah, I'm going with partisan bitchiness.

    What are you doing about it?




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