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Thread: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

  1. #1
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    Default Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    I've been strip planking my Beg-Meil as the first layer of what will ultimately be a cold-molded construction. I'm using 1/4 x 3/4 bead and cove in WRC. It was going smoothly until I started to notice some significant "bulging" or "pillowing" of the strips between the frames. Initially, I thought it was low spots at the frames, but I then noticed similar bulging on both sides of the hull at multiple locations. It's hard to see in this photo, but if you stare at it for a second, the problem is evident. I believe it is caused by the twist and bend imparted in the strips as they are installed.

    <<For reasons unknown, TinyPic.com will not allow me to post this photo...>>>

    I am able to pull out the bulging and regain a fair curve using this array of metal strips and turnbuckles. My hope is that as I install additional strips and cure the epoxy while under this clamping arrangement, I will return the entire hull to fair over the next few courses.



    For you folks who have built strip planked or cold molded hulls:

    Have you seen this phenomena before?

    Is this an accepted or acceptable remedy? Are there other/better solutions?

    As always, thanks for your input.

    Dean

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Dean, at first glance I'd guess you need more station molds. and more fairing of the lines with battens, It also appears the straps are pulling the strips in but re-reading it tells me you are trying to pull the bulge in? Another reason to not go with staple-less builds but that's just my opinion.

    Oh.. you really don't need epoxy for strip gluing. titebond is what most use.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    As Denise says, I've had trouble with station spacing over 1'.
    The thinner the strip, the worse it will probably be.
    You've already built in the bulge.
    Pulling it in away from the last strip probably won't do much.

    Good luck.

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    Default

    Dean, I have never done strip-planking before, but I'll be doing the cold molding soon, so I'm very interested in the subject, but can't give you any hints from experience, sorry. I'm sure the guys doing stripplanking will be with you in a bit.

    What I'm wondering is: after the moment you started with the stripplanking, is there anything on the boat you touched or changed other than the planking? In my understanding it looks like somehow the whole interior (meaning frames and such) has been pulled closer together lengthwise and something would have been missing to keep them all where they should be. This doesn't make sense at all, I know, but it might help in the search for reasons and how to rectify it. Coldmolding with your strips in the way won't be much fun!

    Sent from my SM-G900FD using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Dody; 08-06-2017 at 08:22 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    How many strips are you putting on at a time?
    Are you gluing the strips to the bulkheads/frames?
    This is not the first boat built to this design, something went wrong!

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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    I'm not familiar with the design, but is strip planking an option for the design?
    I'm wondering if maybe it needs more temporary forms in place for strip style of construction.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    I am no expert but have been indulging in WRC strip construction over the last few weeks (Gil Smith catboat 'Lorelei) using the same dimensioned stock (3/4x1/4 bead and cove) as yourself with no ill effects whatsoever. So, I can only pose a few questions that may touch upon the problem you have, which must be very disconcerting for you.

    Q1. Does your boat live in the same atmosphere as the WRC stock or is the stock being brought in from a much drier place?
    If this is the case then your strip may be absorbing moisture after application and thus causing the bulge.
    If the bulge is not immediately apparent on attachment then the strip must be expanding lengthwise. This may point to moisture absorbance.


    On advice, I have been using wood glue for attachment of strip and will be relying on the application of fibreglass/epoxy for final strength. It is far easier and less messy to use straight from the glue bottle than mixed epoxy. If using epoxy to apply the strip...


    Q2. Is the epoxy distorting the strip as it sets?

    Your mould frames may be too far apart as suggested but I would doubt if that is the cause of bulging.


    I would say that the problem lies in one or both of the following areas...


    a) temperature differences

    b) expansion due to moisture


    In both cases it would require the boat and the stock to be held in similar atmospheres for a balancing period for better results.

    Just an idea here...If the strip is very dry on application then how about lightly steaming it prior to use...then you might have problem of shrinkage of course!


    As I said, I am no expert but I do hope that you get it sorted because it must be very disappointing to have this fault occurring after such labour and time consuming work.


    Good Luck

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    It may be that you need intermediate temporary moulds – you don't say what the frame spacing is. Many of my designs are built using 6mm thick strips, followed by two layers of 3mm diagonal veneers. Frame spacing is generally about 600mm in those designs and builders haven't had any problem.

    I generally recommend strips somewhat wider than you are using, from 30 to 40mm wide. Builders have used both cove-&-bead type strips and tongue-&-groove type strips – I prefer the latter, but cove-&-bead should be fine. The wider strip will edge bend less, but will generally be more stable.

    With the narrow strips that you are using, you probably need closer frames and temporary moulds than the 600mm - perhaps 400mm - it's hard to say for sure.

    If frame spacing is OK, then it is the twist and edge bending that you are inducing in the strips that is likely causing the bulge. Epoxy for bonding the strips to each other and to the frames is just fine – the best in fact. There is no reason why it should cause a bulge.

    Once the epoxy has gone off and you remove the straps it will be interesting to see if the bulge comes back. If it does it's going to be somewhat difficult to get rid of it because it's "built-in". If it doesn't then you've fixed it, temporarily at least.

    I would think that your best move now, whatever, is to insert a "stealer" strip, or strips. Stealers are strips tapered in the width dimension so that they use up more girth (the distance measured around the frames or hull) amidships that they do at the ends – in fact they can taper off almost to nothing at the ends if necessary. Add stealers until you can lay a strip without any edge bend.

    20mm wide is not very wide to make stealer strips from. I would make myself some 40mm wide material and cut the cove and bead by hand (or with a router under a table) and use those for stealers. You can cut the cove in the full-width strip (assuming you are planking cove uppermost) and the bead after you have shaped the stealer strip. I think you will find a wider strip much easier to handle for this job. For this purpose you can make the bead with a hand plane - it doesn't have to be a perfect fit – jut use a slightly thicker epoxy mix.

    If the bulge is "built-in", then keeping the straps on while you fit the stealers – or pulling them taut immediately after bonding a stealer in place – may work OK and the stealers may give enough stability to contain it. Again, it's hard to be sure.

    Your other option is to cut out the offending strip(s) and start again with a stealer or stealers, to get to the point where there is no edge bend. But that is a real pain to have to do.

    Hope this helps

    Cheers -- George
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    A C Grayling

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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    What George said, frame spacing and edge-set, most likely. Cant say i like the idea of all that built in stress though. If its not fair now, cold moulding over it will be a complete waste of time and effort. At least you have paused where you have, but you have a very long way to go, i would not hesitate to remove what not right and start over, better in the long run.

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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Stealer strips.
    For the strips to sit evenly against the frames they have to follow their natural curve otherwise they will start to cockup. To some extent you can force them flat if you screw them to the moulds but at some point it becomes to much.
    Our boat was stripped from top and bottom working into the middle with a large number of planks around turn of the bilge being short. Then faired off and double diagonal over top.

    After all run a tape measure around a frame in the centre and then do the same forward and aft. Divide by the width of your planks, should expect to need a lot more planks around the centre of the boat than the ends.
    Zane

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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Hi All,

    Thanks for all the input. I recognize from your questions, that I left out a lot of important detail. I will attempt to fill in some of the blanks:

    The strips are being epoxied in place - both along the edges (bead/cover intersection) and at frame crossings. In addition, I used plastic staples to augment the attachment of strips to frames. I chose epoxy over Titebond to give me a bit more working time for each strip. I use masking tape to hold the newly installed strip to the others.

    Frame spacing ranges from 440mm to 650mm. I had convinced myself that this was adequate spacing based on a strip-built sailboat for which I purchased the plans (Whisstock 055). My strips are 3/4 inch wide and perhaps are not optimum for this use. (Thanks for your input, George!)

    The Beg-Meil design is drawn to be built as lapstrake or strip plank (not cold molded as I have elected to do). If done in strips, the designer (Vivier) calls for 15mm x 22mm stock. Much thicker than the 6mm material I have elected to do as my first layer.

    Dody - I erected the frames per the prints and beveled the frames to make the strips lay fair. I have made no other allowances for cold molding (relative to the strip plank design).

    I am putting on one strip at a time.


    The WRC strips live with the boat, so everything should be at the same humidity level. I have considered steaming, but I am hoping a less tedious solution will be identified.

    George - I believe frame spacing is ok based on your 055 design (without consideration of the strip width). Once I noticed the bulging for what it is, I convinced myself it is due to the twist and bend imparted during installation. I like the stealer idea. I may try to incorporate a few as I try to use the straps to force out the existing bulge.

    I think I will try the straps as I install the next 4-6 strips. If the straps don't solve this issue, I will remove the offending strips and start again. I will post a few more photos after I get my current posting issues sorted out.

    Thanks,

    Dean

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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Using strips as battens to check and adjust fairness of the hull before actually gluing strips is almost as time-consuming as gluing the strips although it is very necessary
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Hi Dean

    If you have my 055 design plans and instructions you will see that I am recommending 25 x 6 or preferably 30 x 6 strips. Also if you look at the instructions Book 2, Section 10.1.18 onwards you will see that it deals with distortion and stealers:

    "10.1.18 As you proceed with the planking you will find that you will gradually have to apply edge bend to the planks to get them to fit down tightly on the previous plank. The amount of edge bend will gradually increase until you get to the point where it is too much for the plank, or is starting to produce distortion in the planks. At this point we need to fit some ‘stealers’ until we are back straight again. The reason for all this is basically that the girth of the boat is greater amidships than it is at the ends."

    It then goes on to discuss how to make stealers etc. through to section 10.1.24.

    With the distortion you already have I seriously would not attempt to fit any more planks before making and fitting stealers or else you will most likely just make the situation worse.

    Cheers -- George
    To be truly free to live, one must be free to think and speak.

    A C Grayling

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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Thanks for all the great input. I have reluctantly decided to remove the offending strips. A good example of the bulging (or buckling) may be seen here:




    I recently purchased Nick Schrade's book, "Building Strip Planked Boats", and read the sections relevant to my current issue. He suggests laying a strip along the length of the hull and allow it to find its own "happy place". This evening I did that and found that the strip fit nicely along this path:





    This strip orientation might not look good on a strip planked hull, but at this point, I am only interested in a fair hull. These strips will be covered by a couple of diagonal layers of cedar.

    After a bit, I will be ready for the "stealers" recommended by others. I'll post more pictures once I work up the nerve to The Cut.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Yes, the cold-molding I have done started with a 5 degree first layer to help lay more "happy" Designer's instruction.

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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Really .. the best place to begin strips.. is usually not the sheer line. The slightest bend will be intense when rounding the bilge and rising to the stem. (still think the stations are pretty far apart) Good luck!
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Really .. the best place to begin strips.. is usually not the sheer line. The slightest bend will be intense when rounding the bilge and rising to the stem. (still think the stations are pretty far apart) Good luck!
    That's not really always true - a lot depends on how tight the turn of bilge is. Starting at the shelf and running the strips parallel to the sheer gives (in my opinion anyway) a more satisfying and "natural" look on the inside. Stealers where necessary, usually don't happen until the bilge somewhere, which is most likely not visible inside the boat – specially on a boat with interior furniture etc.

    Here are three pictures of a Design 055 which the OP mentions, currently in build. The hull is 6mm strips, followed by two 3mm diagonal layers. This particular builder is building on laminated frames which are spaced at 640mm c/c and using tongue-&-groove strips that he machined himself. You can see that he strip planked the hull without any stealers a all. The boat probably has a slightly easier turn of bilge than a Beg-Meil – and T-&-G strips certainly give each other much better support and run fairer easier, than cove-&-bead.

    Here she is at about the same stage as the OP shows:



    And here she is with the first skin done:



    And here with the first diagonal layer on:



    Another thing to remember with both strip planking and especially with diagonals is that while you are doing it, before the whole hull is skinned, you are often looking at unusual "lines" on the hull, so they don't always look fair – or rather they are fair, but an odd shape and not fair as you are used to seeing. Once the whole hull is skinned, you see it as a complete surface again, which is what the eye expects. So it is sometimes hard to decide if an odd-looking line is really odd, or just because you are looking at an odd view of what will be fine when the whole surface is completed.

    Actually, on this hull, a small amount of hollow did develop just back from the forefoot in the final 20 or so strips, which the builder faired out before laying the diagonals. It would probably have been worth fitting a stealer or two, to have avoided that.

    Cheers -- George
    To be truly free to live, one must be free to think and speak.

    A C Grayling

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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    While strip building my fantail launch, designed 100 years ago for carvel planking, I spent many an hour pondering your same situation. Stealer strips were pretty much the solution. I also had to modify the molds here and there to make things fair. One difference in your build as apposed to regular strip building is that your molds (or most of them) are permanent and the strips are glued to them. Regular strip planking is not, allowing the planks to float free from the molds a bit if needed.
    Another thing with your boat is that the design, while excellent, is short and wide compared to the sleeker canoes and pulling boats normally built nowadays with this method. You are probably experiencing more of the edge set twist then most folks.
    The important thing is patience, which it seems you have, therefore everything will come out all right in the end.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Nice George! question. the strips and veneer are not under the keelson?
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    While strip building my fantail launch, designed 100 years ago for carvel planking, I spent many an hour pondering your same situation. Stealer strips were pretty much the solution. I also had to modify the molds here and there to make things fair. One difference in your build as apposed to regular strip building is that your molds (or most of them) are permanent and the strips are glued to them. Regular strip planking is not, allowing the planks to float free from the molds a bit if needed.
    Another thing with your boat is that the design, while excellent, is short and wide compared to the sleeker canoes and pulling boats normally built nowadays with this method. You are probably experiencing more of the edge set twist then most folks.
    The important thing is patience, which it seems you have, therefore everything will come out all right in the end.
    kind of sums up why I'm always harping that full length strips are not mandatory
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    You have my sympathy, this is a nice design and you are doing a great job. I believe that the problem is edge set. Here is what I would do after building five boats including one strip and one cold moulded over strips.
    First finish planking but first get rid of the edge set - I would measure along each station from the keel to the strip. Then using the greatest of those measurements, make a mark at each station on the hull. Then, secure a batten to the hull and run a circular saw through the marks cutting away some of the strip material. Naturally, the depth of cut has to be a shade less than the strip thickness. This takes courage and a steady hand but you can do it. After cleaning up the edges, you'll have a nice fresh start with much less edge set from which to finish the planking (an edge plane works well here). Removing the strips from the frames will have to be done carefully to not lose the station shape.
    Next fair the hull - get rid of the external bulges by making the hull fair using traditional methods. If the bulges are so great that the hull can't be faired thats not good.
    Finally add a layer of strips. The hull will be so thin in places, that another layer of strips will be needed. This time, start at the keel and work downward. Cutting a nice fresh start (as above) a foot or so from the shear is a good way to get rid of the edge set which has caused your bulges.
    Please let me know if you have questions. Building boats is essentially a matter of solving problems. All is not lost.
    Dave

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Nice George! question. the strips and veneer are not under the keelson?
    Thank you! She is one of my most popular designs. She is a 15' half-decker, gaff or bermudian, yawl or cutter. There is a modified version that can be built for outboard only – she has a more upright transom and slightly fuller aft sections. And some have been built with a small cuddy as well.

    And no – the hull skin doesn't run under the keel.

    The backbone consists of a hog and keel, stem and apron, and a sternpost and stern knee. The apron and the hog are laminated up over the frames, transom and a stem former, in place on the build jig. The are then bevelled off to make a faying surface for the planking to land on (either ply lapstrake or cold moulded), leaving a flat the width of the stem and keel. Then the keel and stem are laminated up, again in place, on the hog and apron. This basically forms a conventional rebate for the hull skin. In the cold-moulded version, the strips and the diagonal veneers, and in the lapstrake version the planks, are fitted to the sides of the stem and keel.

    Here she is with the first 4 or 5 strips on - you can see the apron and the forward part of the hog, bevelled off to make a faying surface. She is a very easy hull to skin, whatever the method.



    She is a fairly traditional design, hence the stem and keel rebate – in my "modern" style designs, the skin runs over the backbone and stem, and the ballast keel (and deadwoods if appropriate) are fitted after the hull is skinned. Usually the skin on the stem is just cleaned off flush with the stem face.

    Cheers -- George
    To be truly free to live, one must be free to think and speak.

    A C Grayling

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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Guess we need to create a new term "garapron" & garstrips"?
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    If strips are thinner than they are wide are edge-set much, they'll want to twist and buckle away from the molds.
    Simply fastening them to the molds until all the stripping is done will do the trick.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Why not plank one of these carvel with 3/4 junniper, caulk her with cotton and seam compound and go sailing? Theplanking stock would cost what you spent on rubber gloves.

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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Why would you ever suggest a person change his chosen built method when he is well into the project?
    Talk about no respect or even courtesy.

    For me it would be the fact that old style rots and is a lot heavier.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Quote Originally Posted by JimConlin View Post
    If strips are thinner than they are wide are edge-set much, they'll want to twist and buckle away from the molds.
    Simply fastening them to the molds until all the stripping is done will do the trick.

    Hi Jim,

    That's exactly what happened. In my case, however, the molds are permanent frames and each strip was glued and stapled to the frames. The twist and buckling was too much for the frame spacing, so I ended up with an un-fair surface. I have since cut the offending strips out and will replank along a path that introduces less bend into each plank. I'll post some more photos soon.

    Thanks,

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Thanks for the report.
    Having only done kayaks strip planked I never ran into this problem.
    You learn something new all the time, if you listen.

    Sorry for the problem.

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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    When I worked for Carl Chapman and we strip planked the L-36 Class Lapworth Sloops, we used planking that was as thick as normal planking, bull nosed and hollow and about two and a half inches broad at the seams. This material was narrow enough to not take an unfair bow due to twist. If a square batten lays fair between the molds, you may be planking with stock that is too wide. If the batten takes a whoopy then you may have a mold that is out of bevel. The planking needs to take a fair curve without edge set, which can also be the cause of your problem when combined with the twist of the plank.
    Jay

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    I drew the line and started cutting:



    I cut between the bulkheads and removed the offending strips.



    The spring-back gives some indication of the stress trapped within the strips:




    I trimmed away most of the strips where the were bonded to the bulkheads and used my heat gun to remove the epoxy.




    Tonight, I planed off the bead from a strip and glued it in place. It laid down very easily and looks fair. I am anxious to try the next few strips to make sure everthing is going smoothly then its on to the other side!




  31. #31
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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    What a nuisance to have to redo that work, but good to see that you’ve come up with a solution. I’m following with interest to see how it goes now as you progress. I have a strip planed H28 but the strips started from the keel.
    Larks

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    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Courageous to cut that back - I feel for you. Must have been tough to undo all that effort.

    I've strip built a couple, first one bead and cove the second one not. Not having a bead and cove was much easier. The turns never got so tight as to open an unacceptable gap in the strips, for some of the tighter bends i'd bevel the inside edge a little with a small plane. Also makes adding stealers and filling gaps a lot easier. But if you've got the stock milled already.....

    Keep up the good work, your decision to cut back rather than make do is impressive.
    “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge” - Charles Darwin (1809–1882)

    Nutshell Pram Build pictures ; https://photos.app.goo.gl/1GdBcckcgBAWsbVg1

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Cundys Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    758

    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Excellent, glad to see you are on the right track.
    Dave

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    10,426

    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    That removal is painful to look at! But you made the right choice.
    Better times to you. Jay

  35. #35
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Deer Isle, Maine
    Posts
    1,144

    Default Re: Strip planking screw up...advice sought

    Kudos to you, DeanP, for having a resilient attitude!!!

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