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Thread: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Hell, I wanted Biden. I just thought she had a better chance than Bernie.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Publicly funded campaigns would have to be paid for through taxes. We can't even get a tax increase through congress to pay for things like infrastructure maintenance, wars, debt reduction, healthcrae, education, social security even. Besides, only true communist nations have ever had public finance model for campaigns. Lastly, as much as my proposal is dead in the water, yours is even deader. Its the deadest.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    Gerrymandering has nothing to do with the Senate. We'll see how '18 turns out.
    Gerrymandering has EVERYTHING to do with the State Legislatures, and if you wish to abolish the 17th, then you wish for the US Senate to be controlled by Gerrymander.

    And yes, we shall see how '18 plays out.
    Rattling the teacups.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    . . . Re: DNC platform:

    Term limits. Congress and all state and federal employees get the same healthcare as the rest of us.

    Labor reform, to bring the US up to global, first world standards:
    Tie time off to total years worked no matter who a person worked for. During the first 5 years of full time employment you get on week of personal/sick time and one week of vacation, 5-15 years; one week of PT and 2 weeks vacation, 15 years or to the age of 60; 1 week PT and 3 weeks vacation. After the age of 60 and having worked at least 20 years, half retirement, SS kicks in for 60% of the employees pay for the 20 hours a week not worked and the employer kicks in 40%. Time off is paid by the companies like unemployment insurance is, to the government and the government pays the employee. Companies cannot be trusted to be fair and they have manipulated the market so that the employee can't be apart of the market. This, with strong regulations on part-time vs full-time ratios and single payer health care, will allow employees to actually compete in the market, which will encourage companies to reward hard work and it will create instinctive for employees to work hard.
    Jeezle!

    Say goodbye to the yeoman tradie, boys!
    Rattling the teacups.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Publicly funded campaigns would have to be paid for through taxes. We can't even get a tax increase through congress to pay for things like infrastructure maintenance, wars, debt reduction, healthcrae, education, social security even. Besides, only true communist nations have ever had public finance model for campaigns. Lastly, as much as my proposal is dead in the water, yours is even deader. Its the deadest.
    I think you need to differentiate the the intent behind why communist nations have had them and why and how we could implement it. It's a dead idea because we allow big money to influence who gets to run for office and often who wins. So, is it your contention that the only way to reach a better equilibrium within our government is a revolution? You know, Thomas Paine style?
    Last edited by McMike; 08-06-2017 at 10:51 AM.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

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  6. #76
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    No.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    Labor reform, to bring the US up to global, first world standards:
    Tie time off to total years worked no matter who a person worked for. During the first 5 years of full time employment you get on week of personal/sick time and one week of vacation, 5-15 years; one week of PT and 2 weeks vacation, 15 years or to the age of 60; 1 week PT and 3 weeks vacation. After the age of 60 and having worked at least 20 years, half retirement, SS kicks in for 60% of the employees pay for the 20 hours a week not worked and the employer kicks in 40%. Time off is paid by the companies like unemployment insurance is, to the government and the government pays the employee. Companies cannot be trusted to be fair and they have manipulated the market so that the employee can't be apart of the market. This, with strong regulations on part-time vs full-time ratios and single payer health care, will allow employees to actually compete in the market, which will encourage companies to reward hard work and it will create instinctive for employees to work hard.
    I just don't understand why people who want these types of benefits don't go to work for places that offer them. http://www.businessinsider.com/incre...ployees-2016-2

    One can always start a business and give these benefits to both themselves and their employees.

    One can even move to a country that provides the benefits one wants.
    Life is complex.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I just don't understand why people who want these types of benefits don't go to work for places that offer them. http://www.businessinsider.com/incre...ployees-2016-2

    One can always start a business and give these benefits to both themselves and their employees.

    One can even move to a country that provides the benefits one wants.
    I started as a sander in a millwork shop with dreams of becoming an accomplished cabinetmaker. I spent lots of time perfecting my skill and finally reaching that goal. I found that for such a skilled trade, you didn't make a living wage unless you own the company. Having no family support or inheritance to speak of, I was stuck with the choice of, yet again, reinventing myself or following my passion and struggling my entire life. I chose to learn another new trade, drafting and then engineering within the millwork industry. I taught myself AutoCAD and various engineering/manufacturing softwares and developed the supporting skills in order to fill a project engineer/management role. Now, I'm in the position where I'm extremely valuable to the company I work for, yet, there are very few companies that I could move to. While I work for the best boss I've ever worked for in this industry and have no intention to leave the company, I also have very little leverage to incentivize a better compensation package. That and, if I were unhappy, I can't afford to change companies and be without company subsidized health insurance for the requisite year as a new hire. I would also lose my two weeks vacation and would have to start with one or no weeks off for the first 1-3 years again.

    You live in some kind of fantasy land where you think people like me have any kind of good choice, I am a commodity and am not allowed, by design, to actually participate in the marketplace. I'm sorry but you are way out of touch, we don't all have the ability to start our own businesses.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

    ~seanz

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    No.
    How then, do we fix this?
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

    ~seanz

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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    You live in some kind of fantasy land where you think people like me have any kind of good choice, I am a commodity and am not allowed, by design, to actually participate in the marketplace. I'm sorry but you are way out of touch, we don't all have the ability to start our own businesses.
    You put yourself in the situation you find yourself in. I offered you solutions that others have made use of. And all you offer are excuses for your insistence on staying in your position.

    When I was in my 20s with a wife and 2 kids, I was moving toward your situation. I made a lot of changes over 20 years. I finally found something that worked out.

    I will tell you moving with a couple young kids, a wife, and no money or job prospects was not the most pleasant time of my life. And I did it several times.
    Life is complex.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    You put yourself in the situation you find yourself in. I offered you solutions that others have made use of. And all you offer are excuses for your insistence on staying in your position.

    When I was in my 20s with a wife and 2 kids, I was moving toward your situation. I made a lot of changes over 20 years. I finally found something that worked out.

    I will tell you moving with a couple young kids, a wife, and no money or job prospects was not the most pleasant time of my life. And I did it several times.
    Very clearly, I put myself in this position. I worked my a55 of to get where I am, you suggesting that I have control over anyone else but myself is an excuse for the bad state of labor as it stands today. As always, your obtuse approach to the topic shows how very out of touch you are. Just because you've seems to be more successful than I doesn't necessarily mean that you worked harder or smarter than I. Circumstance, outside forces, luck, plays a huge role.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

    ~seanz

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    Yeah; repeal Citizens United. Get a grip on lobbying. Publicly funded campaigns. Break the monopolies on ISPs locally. Ensure net neutrality with a constitutional amendment, better yet, socialize it. Make all incomes public. More?
    You can't repeal a Supreme Court decision. Only the Supreme Court, or a constitutional amendment, can change that. Either one takes a lot more time and effort than a bit of legislation. I haven't seen any sign that the left part of the Democratic party understands that who names the Supreme Court justices is one of the biggest issues out there. They'd rather tell us how horrible perfectly electable candidates are because at some point in their careers they've been tainted by Wall Street.

    Since about 1970, there's been a well-financed, consistently backed program to change the way this country is run to more greatly benefit the very, very rich. Meanwhile, the left keeps making the perfect the enemy of the good.

  13. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    Very clearly, I put myself in this position. I worked my a55 of to get where I am, you suggesting that I have control over anyone else but myself is an excuse for the bad state of labor as it stands today. As always, your obtuse approach to the topic shows how very out of touch you are. Just because you've seems to be more successful than I doesn't necessarily mean that you worked harder or smarter than I. Circumstance, outside forces, luck, plays a huge role.
    "Let them eat cake" pretty much sums it up.
    Rattling the teacups.

  14. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    You can't repeal a Supreme Court decision. Only the Supreme Court, or a constitutional amendment, can change that. Either one takes a lot more time and effort than a bit of legislation. I haven't seen any sign that the left part of the Democratic party understands that who names the Supreme Court justices is one of the biggest issues out there. They'd rather tell us how horrible perfectly electable candidates are because at some point in their careers they've been tainted by Wall Street.

    Since about 1970, there's been a well-financed, consistently backed program to change the way this country is run to more greatly benefit the very, very rich. Meanwhile, the left keeps making the perfect the enemy of the good.
    My mother was an abused and kept woman. It was amazing how the smallest gesture of kindness by her keeper would settle her into complacency over being beaten among other abuses, I see you and many on the "left" the same way. We can do better.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

    ~seanz

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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    My mother was an abused and kept woman. It was amazing how the smallest gesture of kindness by her keeper would settle her into complacency over being beaten among other abuses, I see you and many on the "left" the same way. We can do better.
    I'm sorry to hear that, McMike, but that really isn't what the left is about. In today's American society liberalism is about little more than fairness. People shouldn't have more simply as an accident of birth or good fortune. Opportunity should be available to all and getting rich should not be the object of life's main pursuit. Liberalism is the freedom to live our lives as we wish tempered by the needs of others.

  16. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I'm sorry to hear that, McMike, but that really isn't what the left is about. In today's American society liberalism is about little more than fairness. People shouldn't have more simply as an accident of birth or good fortune. Opportunity should be available to all and getting rich should not be the object of life's main pursuit. Liberalism is the freedom to live our lives as we wish tempered by the needs of others.
    I agree. We're in a small minority.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

    ~seanz

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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    Very clearly, I put myself in this position. I worked my a55 of to get where I am, you suggesting that I have control over anyone else but myself is an excuse for the bad state of labor as it stands today. As always, your obtuse approach to the topic shows how very out of touch you are. Just because you've seems to be more successful than I doesn't necessarily mean that you worked harder or smarter than I. Circumstance, outside forces, luck, plays a huge role.
    I never suggested that you have control over anyone except yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    "Let them eat cake" pretty much sums it up.
    As I have said many times before we should be directing our efforts at helping those in greater need - those below the median, rather than those in lesser need - those in the top 20%.
    Life is complex.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Jeezle!

    Say goodbye to the yeoman tradie, boys!
    Other countries have 4 weeks plus holidays and last time I looked, they also still had tradesmen.

  19. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    You put yourself in the situation you find yourself in. I offered you solutions that others have made use of. And all you offer are excuses for your insistence on staying in your position.

    When I was in my 20s with a wife and 2 kids, I was moving toward your situation. I made a lot of changes over 20 years. I finally found something that worked out.

    I will tell you moving with a couple young kids, a wife, and no money or job prospects was not the most pleasant time of my life. And I did it several times.
    Assuming that during your job changes you didn't always have health cover, what position would you be in if you were unlucky and your or yours suffered a major illness at the wrong time? If it took several changes for you to find something that worked out, it's obviously not a simple or easy thing to do; how can you be that you achieved what you did through sheer effort and not through a significant amount of luck?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Besides, only true communist nations have ever had public finance model for campaigns.
    That depends on your definition of a "public finance model". Some democratic nations (ie Australia) have significant public finance for electoral campaigns, and other countries have other restrictions to reduce the impact of major donors.

  21. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Assuming that during your job changes you didn't always have health cover, what position would you be in if you were unlucky and your or yours suffered a major illness at the wrong time? If it took several changes for you to find something that worked out, it's obviously not a simple or easy thing to do; how can you be that you achieved what you did through sheer effort and not through a significant amount of luck?
    I never had much insurance until I was in my late 50's. Only then because of the great tax deal that HSAs provide for those in the upper income brackets. Had my family had any significant health care expenses when we did not have insurance, I would have changed my economic goals to facilitate paying the bills.

    I came to realize that I needed to change. And that employers were not going to. Rather than working for others, I needed to work for myself - more properly as it turned out for my wife. Maybe white privilege is important. Maybe luck is important. But hard work was enough. 16 hour days 7 days a week for both my wife and myself.
    Life is complex.

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    Default

    Comrade, if you had 2 houses, you would certainly give one for the revolution?
    Of course.
    Comrade, if you had 2 cars, you would certainly give one for the revolution?
    Yes, certainly.
    Comrade, if you had a million dollars, you would certainly give half for the revolution?
    Yes, yes, yes
    Comrade, if you had two hens, you would certainly give one to the revolution?
    Oh no.
    But why not?
    I have two hens.

    Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk

  23. #93
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Obtaining wealth usually requires risk, and work: not time off.
    If you're satisfied with less money and more time off, become a school teacher.
    If you want to make millions and have lots of time off, become a congressman.
    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

  24. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Other countries have 4 weeks plus holidays and last time I looked, they also still had tradesmen.
    Were they self-employed?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    Obtaining wealth usually requires risk, and work: not time off.
    If you're satisfied with less money and more time off, become a school teacher.
    If you want to make millions and have lots of time off, become a congressman.
    Sounds to me like you need a one-way ticket to Somalia.
    Rattling the teacups.

  25. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    My mother was an abused and kept woman. It was amazing how the smallest gesture of kindness by her keeper would settle her into complacency over being beaten among other abuses, I see you and many on the "left" the same way. We can do better.
    No doubt, but what does it have to do with Citizens United?

    As for the Supreme Court, it's a classic example. You get Justice X. You could have gotten better but you never will, because that particular opportunity to appoint comes only once. The choice was to support that candidate at that time, or not.

    As for being "tainted" by Wall Street, it's a huge constituency. It's idle to hope for politics that are free of its influence. What's needed is an assessment of the "taint", and then a hard decision. Like, you're going to get into this POS lifeboat, or you're going to swim until a better one floats along.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    This week, it is Robert E. Lee and this week, Stonewall Jackson. Is it George Washington next? You have to ask yourself, where does it stop?

  26. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    But why not?
    I have two hens.
    Much truth there.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    This week, it is Robert E. Lee and this week, Stonewall Jackson. Is it George Washington next? You have to ask yourself, where does it stop?

  27. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Example --

    The former attorney general of California, Harris is mistrusted by the left mostly because of her roots as a prosecutor. The Black Lives Matter movement has put anyone with law enforcement history under close scrutiny, and California's criminal justice system is notoriously brutal (though it has improved recently).
    http://theweek.com/articles/715955/w...ick?yptr=yahoo
    Example of . . . the perfect being the enemy of the good, putting it charitably. Man, that article really peed me off.

    1. Who do "leftists" think prosecutes police misconduct? Bernie Sanders? Some "non-profit"?

    2. Close scutiny is not mistrust.

    3. "notoriously brutal (though it has improved recently)"

    Says who, how does it reflect on Ms. Harris, and how has it "improved recently"? That last is pure journalist masturbation, impliedly based on facts, which there are none, which is deduced from the fact they might easily have been stated but they weren't. No doubt prompted by the author's conscience, in the knowledge of how bogus the rest of his statements are. "I have to admit, she's not that bad . . . " GTFOOH
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    This week, it is Robert E. Lee and this week, Stonewall Jackson. Is it George Washington next? You have to ask yourself, where does it stop?

  28. #98
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    Comrade, if you had two . . .
    Well, yes, but consider the standard argument for progressive taxation of all kinds; that we buy the more important things first as our income increases. If you have two million dollars, having only one will not make all that much difference in how you live. If you have two cars, having only one will make some difference in how you live, but you'll get by. If you have two chickens, having only one may make a large difference in your diet.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 08-07-2017 at 11:34 AM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Well, yes, but consider the standard argument for progressive taxation of all kinds; that we buy the more important things first as our income increases. If you have two million dollars, having only one will not make all that much difference in how you live. If you have two cars, having only one will make some difference in how you live. but you'll get by. If you have two chickens, having only one may make a large difference in your diet.
    If one has 2 million dollars or 2 cars, giving up half makes a great deal of difference. It takes having to realize that losing makes a big difference.

    I am all in favor of progressive taxation, but I also understand that people don't like to give up stuff.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Well, yes, but consider the standard argument for progressive taxation of all kinds; that we buy the more important things first as our income increases. If you have two million dollars, having only one will not make all that much difference in how you live. If you have two cars, having only one will make some difference in how you live. but you'll get by. If you have two chickens, having only one may make a large difference in your diet.
    I should have listed the questions in ascending to descending order, because that is the point. We always want to tax the next guy up. If all I have is two hens, taxing the guy with two cars seems just fine. I don't question the need for progressive taxation. I certainly question if some of the proposals listed on this thread can be covered without going down to considering the guy with "two cars", if not "two hens".

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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    TLT, don't be silly. Of course, nobody likes to give up anything, but some things are more important than others. When people's income rises, they buy the more important things first. When people's income falls, they give up the less important things first.

    Peb, no doubt some of the proposals here would have to be paid for by higher tax rates on ordinary folks who don't make lots of money. Whether what one gets is worth what one pays is a value judgement about which people may have different opinions. For example, I would undoubtedly pay higher taxes if the US adopted single-payer healthcare, and would vote for it in a millisecond. Some folks might disagree.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 08-07-2017 at 12:04 PM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    "Importance" is subjective. A product of education, perhaps just lessons learned.

    I am reminded of the Dorothea Lange images of the migrants headed west during the dust bowl era. One of them featuring prominently a roll of linoleum loaded in the vehicle although they had no home, or even a floor to put it on.

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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    "Importance" is subjective.
    Of course. In fact, my definition is somewhat circular - as one's income rises, we buy the most important things first. How can we tell they're more important than other things? Because that's what we choose to buy. But that makes the idea no less useful; the point is that human beings are of a finite size, and the first dollar is more important than the 10,000th, and the 10,000th more important than the 10,000,000th
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?


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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    People shouldn't have more simply as an accident of birth or good fortune. Opportunity should be available to all and getting rich should not be the object of life's main pursuit. Liberalism is the freedom to live our lives as we wish tempered by the needs of others.

    what pompous drivel. you aren't allowed to dictate what a person's main pursuit in life might be, or claim someone's fortune and deprive their heirs in the name of "fairness". if that's what you're looking for, there are a few workers' paradises where you can relocate

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