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Thread: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    I threw up a little in my mouth.
    Because of the lazy eye?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Because I didn't think an old hectoring Jew from Brooklyn could win. Before you get all miffed, I was raised in an Irish catholic family and my mother lamented that the country wasn't ready for a Mick Catholic. It wasn't the lessor of two evils. Don't cite the polls that said Bernie was ahead of trump. He never faced trump, trump didn't even give him a nick name. You don't think the reeps had info on the wife's loans. You don't think some PAC would have played the anti Semite card? Remember McCain's little dark skinned child in South Carilona?

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    hear that? that's me sticking my finger down my throat and gagging myself
    Sooo . . . What do you do when somebody says they think Trump is a great President, give yourself a high colonic?
    Rattling the teacups.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    fart

    honestly, most such people aren't worthy of a response
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boater14 View Post
    Because I didn't think an old hectoring Jew from Brooklyn could win. Before you get all miffed, I was raised in an Irish catholic family and my mother lamented that the country wasn't ready for a Mick Catholic. It wasn't the lessor of two evils. Don't cite the polls that said Bernie was ahead of trump. He never faced trump, trump didn't even give him a nick name. You don't think the reeps had info on the wife's loans. You don't think some PAC would have played the anti Semite card? Remember McCain's little dark skinned child in South Carilona?
    Clinton's inability to win had nothing to do with Sanders and wether or not Sanders was a better candidate has no bearing on the fact that she was the worst possible candidate. McCain had nothing to do with it either. Liberals like me have finally figured out that while we're better off with the likes of Clinton over Trump, it's still a huge sh17 pie that I don't want to eat.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

    ~seanz

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    McMike - I've always liked you, and appreciated your perspective. My impression on this issue is that you are letting a perfectly understandable emotional reaction to the offalness of power politics, and the state we have allowed ourselves to reach in the U.S., to become your only reaction. While I understand... I don't see that hanging onto it is optimal. Or - to put it in theoretical terms - I think you may be stuck in Type1 thinking when it is time to move to Type2.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    McMike - I've always liked you, and appreciated your perspective. My impression on this issue is that you are letting a perfectly understandable emotional reaction to the offalness of power politics, and the state we have allowed ourselves to reach in the U.S., to become your only reaction. While I understand... I don't see that hanging onto it is optimal. Or - to put it in theoretical terms - I think you may be stuck in Type1 thinking when it is time to move to Type2.
    I like you too David and don't take my criticism as a sign that that's changed. But kindly, sh71's gotta change on our side. Let me be clear, if the next candidate even has a whiff of Wall Street about them, they'll lose. People are tired of being screwed. The DNC has a lot of work to do, work that it's still not doing.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

    ~seanz

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    I like you too David and don't take my criticism as a sign that that's changed. But kindly, sh71's gotta change on our side. Let me be clear, if the next candidate even has a whiff of Wall Street about them, they'll lose. People are tired of being screwed. The DNC has a lot of work to do, work that it's still not doing.
    OK... let's look at it this way... what do you envision as a platform for your theoretical 'winning candidate'? (Or maybe it's not theoretical - do you have people in mind?)
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Because of the lazy eye?
    Nah, I'm not that superficial.

    I can't believe the Clinton's actually think she would have even the slightest chance of winning an election. Do you realize how entitled they must feel? Eff that.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

    ~seanz

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    OK... let's look at it this way... what do you envision as a platform for your theoretical 'winning candidate'? (Or maybe it's not theoretical - do you have people in mind?)
    I can say that as a platform, single payer should be the top priority. Drop the rhetoric on guns, the subject is so toxic now that it has become a liability. Take a different tack on illegal aliens by phasing in strong penalties for hiring one. Create a strong guest worker program that acknowledges that Americans are unwilling to get their hands dirty but requires wages to be realistic, humane. We must level the market. Tax the rich on investment income. Require free childcare for parents on welfare and create a work program so that they can learn new skills in order to support their families. I could go on.

    In terms of a candidate; I haven't a clue, I don't see one yet.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

    ~seanz

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    ...Do you realize how entitled they must feel? Eff that.
    We don't have to imagine. We've been dealing with them for >25 goddanged years.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by B_B View Post
    We don't have to imagine. We've been dealing with them for >25 goddanged years.
    True dat. But you have to admit this is a new level of entitlement.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

    ~seanz

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    I can say that as a platform, single payer should be the top priority. Drop the rhetoric on guns, the subject is so toxic now that it has become a liability. Take a different tack on illegal aliens by phasing in strong penalties for hiring one. Create a strong guest worker program that acknowledges that Americans are unwilling to get their hands dirty but requires wages to be realistic, humane. We must level the market. Tax the rich on investment income. Require free childcare for parents on welfare and create a work program so that they can learn new skills in order to support their families. I could go on.

    In terms of a candidate; I haven't a clue, I don't see one yet.
    OK... so when do you announce, and where do we send campaign contributions? <G>

    I think you've made a good start, and I find little to argue with. I'd come down heavier on reining in the 'laissez-faire' shift of the last several decades. Anything else?
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    OK... so when do you announce, and where do we send campaign contributions? <G>

    I think you've made a good start, and I find little to argue with. I'd come down heavier on reining in the 'laissez-faire' shift of the last several decades. Anything else?
    Yeah; repeal Citizens United. Get a grip on lobbying. Publicly funded campaigns. Break the monopolies on ISPs locally. Ensure net neutrality with a constitutional amendment, better yet, socialize it. Make all incomes public. More?
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

    ~seanz

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    Yeah; repeal Citizens United. Get a grip on lobbying. Publicly funded campaigns. Break the monopolies on ISPs locally. Ensure net neutrality with a constitutional amendment, better yet, socialize it. Make all incomes public. More?
    Yes. More. I haven't found anything to argue with yet... <G>
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    +1 on repealing Citizens United. Throw in student loan reforms, federalize usury laws, strengthen fiduciary laws governing the financial sector...

    I think the hardest thing to overcome is impatience. A candidate that embraces these ideas and pushes for these policies has to lie about most of them and promise quick fixes to get elected.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Yes. More. I haven't found anything to argue with yet... <G>
    Make a constitutional amendment that military spending can only be a quarter of the total budget. Soft diplomacy on the other hand is not military spending and it works. Make it compulsory that every citizen must serve, either in the military or a program like the peace corps. 2 years, for everyone, rich and poor. Community college or tech school for all, free. Any year served after two will pay for an additional year of higher education. You get, and you give.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

    ~seanz

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Repeal the 17th Amendment
    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    Repeal the 17th Amendment
    When we end Gerrymandering . . . maybe.
    Rattling the teacups.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    When we end Gerrymandering . . . maybe.
    Gerrymandering has nothing to do with the Senate. We'll see how '18 turns out.
    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    since the rise of the tea party the Republican Party has gone through a fracturing that has affected their ability to govern. The dems are in for the same thing I think. This is a consequence of both parties disregarding the the voter over the donor.
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  22. #57
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Lots of good ideas when you throw out the trolls. Other countries have good ideas and seem to just do them. Campaign finance, bike lanes, Australia on guns, the Brits on car propulsion. Here the majority just can't get what they want. Everything ends up in court or kiboshed by special interests. Problem with majority rule is that black people still couldn't vote in.......well you know where. Schools would still be segregated in Little Rock.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    Gerrymandering has nothing to do with the Senate. We'll see how '18 turns out.
    If gerrymandering affects the selection of state legislatures and they, in turn, get to pick the state's senators, then gerrymandering has everything to do with it.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

    ~seanz

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Which senators are you referring to?

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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    . . . Re: DNC platform:

    Term limits. Congress and all state and federal employees get the same healthcare as the rest of us.

    Labor reform, to bring the US up to global, first world standards:
    Tie time off to total years worked no matter who a person worked for. During the first 5 years of full time employment you get on week of personal/sick time and one week of vacation, 5-15 years; one week of PT and 2 weeks vacation, 15 years or to the age of 60; 1 week PT and 3 weeks vacation. After the age of 60 and having worked at least 20 years, half retirement, SS kicks in for 60% of the employees pay for the 20 hours a week not worked and the employer kicks in 40%. Time off is paid by the companies like unemployment insurance is, to the government and the government pays the employee. Companies cannot be trusted to be fair and they have manipulated the market so that the employee can't be apart of the market. This, with strong regulations on part-time vs full-time ratios and single payer health care, will allow employees to actually compete in the market, which will encourage companies to reward hard work and it will create instinctive for employees to work hard.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

    ~seanz

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boater14 View Post
    Which senators are you referring to?
    US senators.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

    ~seanz

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    screw repeal of citizens united, real election finance reform looks like this:

    You can only give money towards a campaign in any precinct if you are actually eligible to vote in said precinct.

    Simple stupid, eliminates corporate money, eliminates special interest money, eliminates pac and super pac money, eliminates party money, eliminates pass through money.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    screw repeal of citizens united, real election finance reform looks like this:

    You can only give money towards a campaign in any precinct if you are actually eligible to vote in said precinct.

    Simple stupid, eliminates corporate money, eliminates special interest money, eliminates pac and super pac money, eliminates party money, eliminates pass through money.
    A good compromise to publicly funded campaigns I think, but I prefer every candidate getting the same funding, media outlets should be required to give time, equal time to all candidates, free of charge. No gifting to campaigns allowed. What this does is prevents local businesses, corporations, and the wealthy from tipping the balance of a campaign to their favor. They all seem to have the same interests so, even locally, their preferred candidate would get the larger share of the donations. Because the common worker won't be able to donate as much or any to the candidate that best represents their interests, with even your solution, they would be under represented.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

    ~seanz

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    but I prefer every candidate getting the same funding
    even candidates like david duke?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    And tax the rich?
    Rich = anyone who has a job.
    Where does anyone come close to saying anything like that? It's hard to respect things you say when you just make stuff up.

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    . . . Re: DNC platform:

    Term limits. Congress and all state and federal employees get the same healthcare as the rest of us.

    Labor reform, to bring the US up to global, first world standards:
    Tie time off to total years worked no matter who a person worked for. During the first 5 years of full time employment you get on week of personal/sick time and one week of vacation, 5-15 years; one week of PT and 2 weeks vacation, 15 years or to the age of 60; 1 week PT and 3 weeks vacation. After the age of 60 and having worked at least 20 years, half retirement, SS kicks in for 60% of the employees pay for the 20 hours a week not worked and the employer kicks in 40%. Time off is paid by the companies like unemployment insurance is, to the government and the government pays the employee. Companies cannot be trusted to be fair and they have manipulated the market so that the employee can't be apart of the market. This, with strong regulations on part-time vs full-time ratios and single payer health care, will allow employees to actually compete in the market, which will encourage companies to reward hard work and it will create instinctive for employees to work hard.
    With respect, is one week of personal/sick time and one week of vacation "up to global first world standards"? We in Oz get 4 weeks annual paid vacation and 2(?) weeks sick leave normally, plus public holidays totalling about 6 more days, and I think most Europeans get more.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    even candidates like david duke?
    Sure . . . it sucks but freedom of speech and all. Look, we've got Trump, who has and is running with the blessing from white supremacists as his base. Trump has a 34% popularity rating, that about makes sense in regard to the cross section of this country who are racist to the degree that they would be complicit in trying to make all non-white people 3rd class citizens. Anyway, for all intents and purposes, we've got David Duke right now in the White House. Publicity funded campaigns wouldn't make the problem worse in that regard, it can't get much worse without crossing the Nazi threshold.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    With respect, is one week of personal/sick time and one week of vacation "up to global first world standards"? We in Oz get 4 weeks annual paid vacation and 2(?) weeks sick leave normally, plus public holidays totalling about 6 more days, and I think most Europeans get more.
    See, that's how backward we are that I would be happy with my outlined plan. I get 2 weeks paid vacation and 5 holidays and I'm lucky. I've been working full-time since I was 21, so that's 21 years.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

    ~seanz

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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    When Democrats can see a difference in the economic condition of people at the median and those at twice the median, they will much closer to working toward "the good." When Democrats can see a difference in the public schools between poor schools and rich schools, they will be much closer to working toward "the good."
    We have a similar issue down here in Australia. Studies showed that most (or perhaps only "many") on about 2.5 times the average family income thought they earned about as much as the average Australian, instead of being in the top 5% or thereabouts. People believe they are "battlers" when they are in fact wealthy, and it seems to influence their politics significantly.

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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    See, that's how backward we are that I would be happy with my outlined plan. I get 2 weeks paid vacation and 5 holidays and I'm lucky. I've been working full-time since I was 21, so that's 21 years.
    The thing that strikes me is how that sort of stuff seems to hurt the rich as well. Such short holidays make it understandable that so many US racing crew demand to get paid for doing regattas, rather than doing it for the fun of it like they normally do elsewhere. And once the costs go up, fleet numbers go down so most owners don't have as much fun. Everyone loses out. Okay, that's an extreme case and a tiny niche, but one would assume that the same sort of factors run through the whole of society - you can't just get more for society by making people work more hours in their job.

    We actually have long working weeks down here, and things like Sunday trading for retailers do seem to have had an impact on things like sport. The fact that sport has become less popular may be a reason why obesity and its costs are going up. So much of this sort of thing seems to consist of short-sighted cost-cutting with no regard for the inevitable flow on effects through society.

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