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Thread: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    what pompous drivel. you aren't allowed to dictate what a person's main pursuit in life might be, or claim someone's fortune and deprive their heirs in the name of "fairness". if that's what you're looking for, there are a few workers' paradises where you can relocate
    If you yearn for a lawless hellscape devoid of pesky taxation, Somalia awaits.

    If you want to be an American, then you must first learn what that means.
    Rattling the teacups.

  2. #107
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    being an american means steal every dime over X amount from the evil rich people?

  3. #108
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    You aren't allowed to dictate what a person's main pursuit in life might be, or claim someone's fortune and deprive their heirs in the name of "fairness".
    Really? So one has an inalienable right to pass along to one's children or other chosen heirs one's property without interference? My. Well, feudalism had its charms, no doubt, but it seems to me that a just society would not make one's chances of material success so contingent on a careful choice of parents.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  4. #109
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Really? So one has an inalienable right to pass along to one's children or other chosen heirs one's property without interference? My. Well, feudalism had its charms, no doubt, but it seems to me that a just society would not make one's chances of material success so contingent on a careful choice of parents.

    where would you like to draw this line? hey, looks like that kid of yours didn't buy that car with their own money.... gotta take that, it's not fair to the kid that doesn't have "wealthy parents". liberalism is sacrificing freedom on the altar of fairness and quality.

  5. #110
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    being an american means steal every dime over X amount from the evil rich people?
    First of all, being an American means sloughing off such an evil, twisted view of Liberals.

    We founded this country you claim to be so in love with.
    Rattling the teacups.

  6. #111
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    First of all, being an American means sloughing off such an evil, twisted view of Liberals.

    We founded this country you claim to be so in love with.


    poor debate tactics.

  7. #112
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    Where would you like to draw this line? . . . . Liberalism is sacrificing freedom on the altar of fairness and quality. (equality?)
    Well, where to draw the line is indeed an important question. And please stop constructing straw men and attributing their idiocy to those who disagree with you.

    So tell me: in a just society, to what degree should one's chances of material prosperity in life depend on the wealth of one's parents?
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  8. #113
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    poor debate tactics.
    Debate?

    That's rich, coming from you.

    Maybe you should consider the FACT that the Founding Fathers were flaming, leftist, separatist Liberals before you start mewling your Great Untruths about Socialism or Taxes Are Theft, or whatever the favorite mewlishness is these days.

    You REALLY owe it to yourself to learn what America is REALLY all about before you hate on Her too much longer.

    As to 'inheritance taxes are theft', ponder on the fact that the land you are living on was stolen by brute force from George's heirs, for one thing.
    Rattling the teacups.

  9. #114
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Well, where to draw the line is indeed an important question. And please stop constructing straw men and attributing their idiocy to those who disagree with you.

    So tell me: in a just society, to what degree should one's chances of material prosperity in life depend on the wealth of one's parents?

    i say we take children from birth and put them in government facilities to be raised under a federally controlled program that ensures that every child gets the same resources. it's only fair.

  10. #115
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Debate?

    That's rich, coming from you.

    Maybe you should consider the FACT that the Founding Fathers were flaming, leftist, separatist Liberals before you start mewling your Great Untruths about Socialism or Taxes Are Theft, or whatever the favorite mewlishness is these days.

    You REALLY owe it to yourself to learn what America is REALLY all about before you hate on Her too much longer.

    As to 'inheritance taxes are theft', ponder on the fact that the land you are living on was stolen by brute force from George's heirs, for one thing.


    piling up the poor debate tactics today i see.

  11. #116
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    piling up the poor debate tactics today i see.
    Yup.

    My tactics are so poor, you can't even respond to them.

    Why do you hate America?
    Rattling the teacups.

  12. #117
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Yup.

    My tactics are so poor, you can't even respond to them.

    Why do you hate America?

    and another!

    respond? to what?

  13. #118
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post

    respond? to what?

    To this:

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Debate?

    That's rich, coming from you.

    Maybe you should consider the FACT that the Founding Fathers were flaming, leftist, separatist Liberals before you start mewling your Great Untruths about Socialism or Taxes Are Theft, or whatever the favorite mewlishness is these days.

    You REALLY owe it to yourself to learn what America is REALLY all about before you hate on Her too much longer.

    As to 'inheritance taxes are theft', ponder on the fact that the land you are living on was stolen by brute force from George's heirs, for one thing.
    Rattling the teacups.

  14. #119
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    i say we take children from birth and put them in government facilities to be raised under a federally controlled program that ensures that every child gets the same resources. it's only fair.
    When someone proposes that, we can discuss it.

    Straw Man: A straw man is a logical fallacy which occurs when a debater intentionally misrepresents their opponent's argument as a weaker version, and rebuts said version — rather than their opponent's genuine argument.

    Again, to what degree should one's chances of material prosperity in life depend on the wealth of one's parents?
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  15. #120
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    To this:

    yea, i don't respond to ad hominem

  16. #121
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    When someone proposes that, we can discuss it.



    Again, to what degree should one's chances of material prosperity in life depend on the wealth of one's parents?


    5 degrees?

    what kind of metrics are we going to use for this? how much money we can put in a will? how much land decreed? does location matter for any of this? 1 mil will buy more in arkansas than in new york city. want to throw a whiteness factor in the equation? that could reduce the amounts by half or so and we'll call it reparations.

  17. #122
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    yea, i don't respond to ad hominem
    Buddy, if you regard my gentle urging toward your self-education as an ad hominem attack, you are likely ill-suited to the Bilge.

    Besides, you seem to be given to the ad hominem fallacy, yourself:
    Thread: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    by AlanMc

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    Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    what pompous drivel. you aren't allowed to dictate what a person's main pursuit in life might be, or claim someone's fortune and deprive their heirs in the name of "fairness". if that's what you're...



    Pompous drivel? This is a 'proper' debate tactic?

    ROFLMAO!!!
    Rattling the teacups.

  18. #123
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    5 degrees?

    what kind of metrics are we going to use for this? how much money we can put in a will? how much land decreed? does location matter for any of this? 1 mil will buy more in arkansas than in new york city. want to throw a whiteness factor in the equation? that could reduce the amounts by half or so and we'll call it reparations.
    I guess you are a Black Holocaust Denier, too?

    No surprises there.
    Rattling the teacups.

  19. #124
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Buddy, if you regard my gentle urging toward your self-education as an ad hominem attack, you are likely ill-suited to the Bilge.

    Besides, you seem to be given to the ad hominem fallacy, yourself:


    Pompous drivel? This is a 'proper' debate tactic?

    ROFLMAO!!!

    you still on this?

  20. #125
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    I guess you are a Black Holocaust Denier, too?

    No surprises there.


    wowsuhs.

  21. #126
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    wowsuhs.
    I'll take that as a yes.

    I'll bet you think people who are offended by monuments to the Great Treason are stuck-up, elitist, liberal crazies, too.
    Rattling the teacups.

  22. #127
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Having wealthy parents should improve chances of their children enjoying material prosperity simply because more resources are available to them, in theory at any rate. However, this is not always the case. More factors are involved.

  23. #128
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    What kind of metrics are we going to use for this? how much money we can put in a will? how much land decreed? does location matter for any of this? 1 mil will buy more in arkansas than in new york city. want to throw a whiteness factor in the equation? that could reduce the amounts by half or so and we'll call it reparations.
    Do you, like, have a quota of straw man arguments you have to include in every post? You tell me. Use the metric you prefer.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  24. #129
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Do you, like, have a quota of straw man arguments you have to include in every post? You tell me. Use the metric you prefer.


    well, you're asking me for "fairness". i don't have a good metric for "fairness". i personally don't have any problems with being able to will everything you have to your descendants. are they not MY possessions to do with what i choose? or is everything i have government property and on loan to be returned to the master upon my demise?

  25. #130
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    well, you're asking me for "fairness". i don't have a good metric for "fairness". i personally don't have any problems with being able to will everything you have to your descendants. are they not MY possessions to do with what i choose? or is everything i have government property and on loan to be returned to the master upon my demise?
    I personally think concentration of wealth is a growing problem in general. It is bad enough in Canada but it seems to be over the top in the States. I am far from an expert but I think US treatment of trusts is very much different than the Canadian treatment. In Canada, a trust is deemed to have disposed of its assets every 21 years and that will very likely trigger capital gains which will be taxed in the trust, unless they are flowed through to be beneficiaries, at the high personal tax rate. As far as I am aware this does not happen in the States.

  26. #131
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    well, you're asking me for "fairness". i don't have a good metric for "fairness". i personally don't have any problems with being able to will everything you have to your descendants. are they not MY possessions to do with what i choose? or is everything i have government property and on loan to be returned to the master upon my demise?
    Clearly.
    Rattling the teacups.

  27. #132
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Clearly.


    interesting.... what units do you use to measure fairness?

  28. #133
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    well, you're asking me for "fairness". i don't have a good metric for "fairness". i personally don't have any problems with being able to will everything you have to your descendants. are they not MY possessions to do with what i choose? or is everything i have government property and on loan to be returned to the master upon my demise?
    I never used the word 'fairness'. I did say 'a just society' which I hope you'd agree is preferable to an unjust one. Obviously opinions differ about what's just and unjust, and it isn't a physical thing that exists independently of what we think; one can't measure it like mass or velocity. I asked to what degree should one's chances of material prosperity in life depend on the wealth of one's parents. I'd say that a just society tends to reward individual merit, initiative, creativity, and effort to a greater degree than luck. Would you agree?
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  29. #134
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I never used the word 'fairness'. I did say 'a just society' which I hope you'd agree is preferable to an unjust one. Obviously opinions differ about what's just and unjust, and it isn't a physical thing that exists independently of what we think; one can't measure it like mass or velocity. I asked to what degree should one's chances of material prosperity in life depend on the wealth of one's parents. I'd say that a just society tends to reward individual merit, initiative, creativity, and effort to a greater degree than luck. Would you agree?
    If you want a metric... maybe you've heard of the GINI coefficient <G>

    That would be a starting place.

    AlanMc - are you familiar with that metric?
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  30. #135
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I never used the word 'fairness'. I did say 'a just society' which I hope you'd agree is preferable to an unjust one. Obviously opinions differ about what's just and unjust, and it isn't a physical thing that exists independently of what we think; one can't measure it like mass or velocity. I asked to what degree should one's chances of material prosperity in life depend on the wealth of one's parents. I'd say that a just society tends to reward individual merit, initiative, creativity, and effort to a greater degree than luck. Would you agree?

    i took the "one's chances" and "just society" as equating to "fairness" in a general sense.


    so we can agree that "fairness" or "justness" is all opinion based. if you're fine with drawing a line somewhere and telling everyone that your opinion of "just" is correct and that all proceeds over X amount are to be taken from the deceased and not allowed to pass to heirs that's cool. i just don't want to pass my opinions of fairness, justness, or whatever onto someone else's property. i believe that since it's an opinion as to where the line gets drawn, that no line should be drawn. do i think billionaires should give billions to their kids? nope. they have too much propensity to turn into poor human beings if you ask me. but i think it's fine to give kids around a half million or so without it being too detrimental. but that's still all opinion. you could give me a billion dollars and i doubt i would turn into a bad person and ruin my life. you can always take a look at what happens to lotto winners as an example of being given wealth on that order of magnitude.

    as far as rewarding individual merit, i agree. but i would extend that reward to my family. if i worked hard and stockpiled a billion dollars to take care of my family, i should be able to give that to my family. what's the point in working hard and earning your fortune if it's not really yours in the end? i don't go to work every day and earn money for just myself. i could work a fast food job and take care of just me.

  31. #136
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    If you want a metric... maybe you've heard of the GINI coefficient <G>

    That would be a starting place.

    AlanMc - are you familiar with that metric?


    where would you like the GINI? at 0? how fair is fair? you have chosen the stay puft marshmallow man, now what are you going to do with it?

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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Does he remind you of anyone???????
    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Don't under-estimate Jack. He's purty damned talented

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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by jack grebe View Post
    Does he remind you of anyone???????
    Quite a lot.

  34. #139
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    i took the "one's chances" and "just society" as equating to "fairness" in a general sense.


    so we can agree that "fairness" or "justness" is all opinion based. if you're fine with drawing a line somewhere and telling everyone that your opinion of "just" is correct and that all proceeds over X amount are to be taken from the deceased and not allowed to pass to heirs that's cool. i just don't want to pass my opinions of fairness, justness, or whatever onto someone else's property. i believe that since it's an opinion as to where the line gets drawn, that no line should be drawn. do i think billionaires should give billions to their kids? nope. they have too much propensity to turn into poor human beings if you ask me. but i think it's fine to give kids around a half million or so without it being too detrimental. but that's still all opinion. you could give me a billion dollars and i doubt i would turn into a bad person and ruin my life. you can always take a look at what happens to lotto winners as an example of being given wealth on that order of magnitude.

    as far as rewarding individual merit, i agree. but i would extend that reward to my family. if i worked hard and stockpiled a billion dollars to take care of my family, i should be able to give that to my family. what's the point in working hard and earning your fortune if it's not really yours in the end? i don't go to work every day and earn money for just myself. i could work a fast food job and take care of just me.
    Sooooo . . . you believe that government is wrong.

    You are an anarchist, just like all your so-called 'Republican' brethren.

    Now it's clear.
    Rattling the teacups.

  35. #140
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    Default Re: Self-Sabotaging Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    where would you like the GINI? at 0? how fair is fair? you have chosen the stay puft marshmallow man, now what are you going to do with it?
    So - I take it then that your answer is: no, I'm not familiar with it. Because if you were, you'd know how to interpret it. Maybe you should read up a bit, instead of dodging and pontificating.
    David G
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