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Thread: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

  1. #211
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    Well, the time has come for "Bright Star" to have her new engine installed. After searching all of the information on small light diesels we chose a Beta 16 as it is essentially the same block as the old Kobota that served us well but died of a perforated water jacket. We always kept the engine well serviced and clean and I gave us good service in return. We are in the process of modifying the engine bed slightly to be able to mount the new mill in alighnement with the prop shaft. Here is a peek on the new mill. It puts out 16 hp at 3,600 rpm and at 205 lbs is light enough to live with.

    https://betamarine.co.uk/portfolio-item/beta-16/

    Here is our old mill that was a faithful friend for many years. More to come.

  2. #212
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    That one's a real cutie! is everything you might have to get to accessible through the cockpit hatch or the cabin without having to hang upside down to get to it? I just hate when that happens. That and the stuff that had to have been installed by an ape with arms as long as his legs!

  3. #213
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    I'd be interested in what you motor at with the 16hp.
    I've got a beta 20 but a small fixed prop, and cruise at 5-5.5knts.
    I'd love to get a folding or feathering prop one day. getting that nut off might be a bit of fun.....

    [IMG]Untitled by James Chilman, on Flickr[/IMG]

  4. #214
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    Quote Originally Posted by James Chilman View Post
    I'd be interested in what you motor at with the 16hp.
    I've got a beta 20 but a small fixed prop, and cruise at 5-5.5knts.
    I'd love to get a folding or feathering prop one day. getting that nut off might be a bit of fun.....

    [IMG]Untitled by James Chilman, on Flickr[/IMG]

    Yikes James - you might find that prop’ nut comes off much easier than you expect - or want - that Altex is heavily copper based and will eat your prop’, shaft, bracket, nut and everything else metal that it’s over - unless you have some sort of very decent vinyl seal coat or epoxy or something to insulate under it and even then I’m not sure whether Altex would recommend it? (And you need an anode on that shaft).
    Larks

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  5. #215
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    Bob, I got a chuckle out of your comments about reaching the engine with long arms. Actually LFHerreshoff did a pretty darn good job in planning the engine bay on the H28. It is a simple matter to reach all sides of the mill for service and removal.
    Here we are pulling the old engine out with a pretty clever rig set up for that purpose. Getting the old shaft coupling off was another kettle of fish!
    That required cutting it off with a die grinder and an abrasive wheel.
    Jay

  6. #216
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    This all took about twenty minutes!
    Jay

  7. #217
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    We were not getting good performance out of the old fixed two blade prop that was on "Bright Star" when we got her. Under sail, it produced a lot of drag and was horrible in reverse giving next to no control at all. We decided to switch ot a Gori folding prop in place of the old water drogue! It was a bit spendy but, it was a good decision as the Gori added a knot and a half to our max speed under power as well as increasing speed under sail. And, in reverse the Gore bites immediately and does what a good prop should do, give control! Eight and a half knots wide open is the max speed over the bottom. We like to cruise a six and a half to seven which is smoother and quieter. It will be interesting to see how the new Beta 16 performs!
    Jay

  8. #218
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    BLING BLING!!! Nice looking piece of hardware there Mr. Greer, very nice.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  9. #219
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Yikes James - you might find that prop’ nut comes off much easier than you expect - or want - that Altex is heavily copper based and will eat your prop’, shaft, bracket, nut and everything else metal that it’s over - unless you have some sort of very decent vinyl seal coat or epoxy or something to insulate under it and even then I’m not sure whether Altex would recommend it? (And you need an anode on that shaft).
    That is not my experience at all. Never seen it or heard of copper antifoul eating SS shafts or bronze struts unless there is a complicating factor.
    whatever rocks your boat

  10. #220
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    Again, here are the specs on the new Beta16 that we are putting in Bright Star. Will post more when it arrives. The 16hp is the same as with the old Atomic Diesel.
    Jay
    https://betamarine.co.uk/portfolio-item/beta-16/
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 05-24-2018 at 01:54 PM.

  11. #221
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    I fully agree that you should have a zinc anode on that prop shaft! You might end up loosing plank fastenings near the after end of the boat without one. In fact next time you haul pull a fastening in the area of the shaft just to be sure. Just a collar on the shaft will do the job and save you lotsa grief. I prefer not to paint the prop as we dive the boat often and scrub it with a fine Scotch Bright pad.
    Jay

  12. #222
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    I, for one am really enjoying the two H 28 threads running side by side....

  13. #223
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    Well thanks Gil!
    Info about work on "Bright Star" is constantly being posted and upgraded here.
    Jay

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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Eight and a half knots wide open is the max speed over the bottom. We like to cruise a six and a half to seven which is smoother and quieter.
    Jay
    Jay, I am struggling to believe that an H-28 would get 8.5 kts through the water, over the bottom yes but with a strong tide! Using 1.34 * the sq root of wl length = about 6.5 kts, I understand that you can push beyond it but then its a case of diminishing returns.
    whatever rocks your boat

  15. #225
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    Well, that may be true. The only way that we checked it, rather than running throught the measured mile was to take an average off of our sat nav. readings. I did find it rather amazing but that is what we based that wild statement on. Our other boat, "Red Witch" is 25'on the WL and was clocked at over 9kts by the Harbor Dept during a Santana in Newport Harbor. They wanted to ticket us but the only way to go slower was to drop the sails that were already reefed which would not be safe. "Red Witch" has no engine and so we depend on her sails for maneuvering in tight places.

    These speeds are certainly over the WL speed length formuala for sailing craft but LFH knew a thing or two about hull design and I can't argue with clocked and recorded data. I don't, often, run at flank speed under power as it requires too much burning of fuel and puts a strain on the engine. In the case of the H28, I was amazed at how efficient the new Gori prop was in comparison to the old solid prop performance. When the new engine goes in, I will repeat the process of checking out her max speed over the bottom.

    Again, here is the video of our H28 at speed. https://vimeo.com/2816887 and again, the wind is coming above the water from the bluffs and creates smooth water but is still gusting up to thirty or more.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 05-28-2018 at 02:40 PM.

  16. #226
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    Jay
    repowered my Frances 26 ( Morris Yachts ) with a Beta 14. Love the engine and easy access for service. I removed the same engine as the raw water cooled jacket finally
    gave up. Love the video and music and have watched it often when I cannot get out on my boat. Those days when all is perfect are rare and so easier to remember,

    Best to you
    Mark\SV Seabird

  17. #227
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    The Theoretical hull speed is a very simple mathematical formula that takes into account only the length of the waterline. The reality is a curve of drag tends to rise sharply at that speed, as your boat tries to climb the bow wave (uphill ?). Some boats with relatively straight lines, or fair curved lines see less of a sharp increase in drag than others. It, of course, also has to do with the driving force. If you have a Honda 300HP on the back of you sport fishing boat, I suggest the theoretical hull speed will be meaningless.
    I have had Whimbrel (an LFH Meadowlark) exceed hull speed (~7.5) by a knot or more by the GPS for minutes at a time several times, and have registered over 10 with a little help from surfing. Sadly I do not have a similar video to prove it.

  18. #228
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    I will be interested in doing some accurate test runs on "Bright Star" with the new engine and will certainly post the results here. It will not be until after mid June though as we are schedualed to do the work on the 19th of June.
    For more on hull speed verses the water line speed length formula I am posting another thread here that Refers to why our other boat "Red Witch" is capable of pushing through the teroretical limit of hull speed.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 05-30-2018 at 11:50 AM.

  19. #229
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    Here is a bit more on thereoetcial hull speed.

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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    Jay, did you forget something??

  21. #231
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    I've watched that video before, nothing as nice as boat powered up in a breeze in moderately flat water.
    She has a nice motion Jay.
    I've driven our old boat so far past hull speed on a broad reach that she squatted, put her counter down to sea level and she was awash. Normally 2 ft above.( static). That was 10.3 knots on log and GPS on a static 31 ft wl, ( but about 36 incl the counter). I have a pic buried somewhere.

  22. #232
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    Jay, did you forget something??
    . I got called away and haven't had time to write more. Lets just say that under unusual conditions of wind strength and water patterns, a sailing vessel can exceed its calculated hull speed.
    However, some boats have hull forms that are easier to drive than are others. Our Common Sense Class Sloop "Red Witch" is one of those boats.
    This boat is exceptionally fast on all points of sail in a variety of wind strengths. The boat is capable of running a way from both six meters and R boats. And was once match raced against the R Boat "Pirate". Over a fifteen mile course, the Common Sense beat the R by fifty nine minutes with Matt Walsh at her helm.
    In this foto, the boat is htting over nine kts. Seen here is also the trophy platter from the above mentioned match race. This is not a boastful statement it is a statement of fact.
    Jay


  23. #233
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    As much as I am enjoying this thread on Bright Star, I am also looking forward to hearing more about the Common Sense Sloop. You've been hinting around about it for a while now, when will we get to see more?
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  24. #234
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    Lines and sailplan please....and photos.

  25. #235
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    Guys,
    I have taken the lines off of the Common Sense Sloop #5, that I own, and will be in the process of drawing a set of construction plans of the boat that have already been started. But. I am doing a design for a new client, at prestant, that takes precedent over the work on the Common Sense sloop. Your patience is appreciated. I would sincerely like to see someone build this boat as it is the most versitile boat I have ever owned or sailed! The name of the class alone should give a hint as to what to expect from these boats! Jay

  26. #236
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    Note that CS5 has climbed over her bow wave and is leaving her stern wave behind. This is one of the reasons this boat is capable of out sailing much larger vessels.
    Jay

  27. #237
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"


  28. #238
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    Here is the underbody of Common Sense #1. The boat now belongs to Todd Rogers. We are currently replacing the port sheer clamp without removing the deck. It is one hell of a job to do!
    Jay

  29. #239
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    Anything from below decks? I remember you referring to the interior as being a bit of a "cave" on the flush-decked (#1?) version. As a year-round denizen of the Greyt Northwet being able to get out of the weather comfortably is pretty high on the list of things I look for in a potential cruising boat.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  30. #240
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    #1 now has a large deck house that I hope Todd will choose to replace as it does not look as good as a smaller house would. It also takes up deck space. This is the former owner, John Arnold, who sadly passed on shortly after finishing the restoration of CS1. As you can see, John needed the extra head room in the boat.
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 06-03-2018 at 01:57 PM.

  31. #241
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    With all this talk of exceeding theoretical hull speeds as timed by GPS devices, am I correct in assuming that the effect of the existing currents is accounted for in the calculation. Hull speed is measured through the water, not over the bottom, as I recall. Not that I doubt the boats Jay mentions will not exceed theoretical hull speed at times, but a lot depends on which formula is being applied. LFH's boats are most all uncommonly fast.

  32. #242
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    That is an interesting point Bob. When the Common Sense was clocked at 9+kts, she was sailing against the current! So that should mean she was going even faster than she was clocked over the bottom when clocked by the Harbor Dept. on their sat nav. since speed through the water was not considered.

    The same holds true of our H28 as she was traveling with the current when she hit 8+kts which means she was not passing though the water as fast as she was clocked by sat nav. While most H28's I have seen are not too sparkling in their performance, I was quite surprised by the speed of our H28, on that day, as she still sets the sail plan LFH designed for her. This is a simple to handle cruising rig that is not intended for racing. We do have a set of sails that are done by my friend Skip Elliott who really knows how to cut a fast suite of sails. I am sure that helps her a lot!

    "Red Witch" is another matter. That boat is just plain fast and has the annoying habit of doing a horizon job on most of her competition! Yet, she has the most comfortable motion of any boat one could wish to be aboard. She is so maneuverable as to nearly turn within her own length when the helm is put over. In fact, she has a responsive helm like no other boat I have ever sailed! I call her my Stradavarious because she talks to me and her crew with every fiber of her wooden hull and tells us when we are in the slot by what is felt rather than what is said or read on a dial!

    So, if any of you are thinking of building a pocket cruiser, you might consider the Common Sense Sloop, a boat that will get you where you want to go to sooner than later and in grand style! I am drawing up a set of plans that will be available through WB.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 06-01-2018 at 03:02 PM.

  33. #243
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    Anything from below decks? I remember you referring to the interior as being a bit of a "cave" on the flush-decked (#1?) version. As a year-round denizen of the Greyt Northwet being able to get out of the weather comfortably is pretty high on the list of things I look for in a potential cruising boat.
    Well Steve, One of the things, I like a lot, about the Common Sense, is the fact that there is a lot of deck space to walk about on or, just plain, lounge on!
    The cockpit sits four and the headsail trimmer can sit with his or her feet in the companion way with their feet on the ladder. The deck house I put on "Red Witch" the same width as was the original sliding hatch and allows full head room for a person just near to six feet in height.. So the deck space is the same whether there is a deck house or not. The owner of #1 plans to take that big deck house off and go for a small one like the Witch has. Due to the expansive deck space, boat feels like fifty footer when one is aboard and moving about. The ballast is ample enough to not allow the boat to move off a level plane when walking about which, gives a great sense of security to people moving about during sail changes. In fact, she carries a 5,500lb. ballast keel. Once moving, the hull is so fine as to easily carry her through flat spots without loosing way due to the inertia set up by the keel. This is what drives other skippers up a tree when this tiny boat ghosts through their lee! I believe that the, ability to ghost in almost no wind, is one of the secrets as to how effiecint the boat is under sail in light airs when others are slatting about. The boats were originally built without engines and I have found that one is not really needed as a sculling oar is all one needs if the wind dies. I do have an outboard motor but never use it as it is so simple just to scull her! Unlike the H28, this boat can also be sculled with her rudder like a big dinghy if I need to bring her into her slip in a dead calm.

    I have "Red Witch" set up to sleep five which is the ideal number for a racing crew. There is a double berth forward, two settees and a quarter berth. Matt Walsh had a double berth under the bridge deck which would then, allow sleeping accommodations for six if necessary. I like the galley set up as I can prepare food and pass it out on the bridge deck. Which allows the cockpit to be used as a big dining room. Even so, there is a lovely Honduras table that fits between the settees which allows room for five to dine drink, sing or play cards. Being aboard "Red Witch" is a true experience in the delights of calm, quiet and happy cruising. If the weather turns nasty, this boat will take you home in one piece while you enjoy the magic of her sailing ability. The boat is rock steady and just plain goes like hell! That reminds me, that I do need to make a dodger to shield the forward end of the cockpit when underway in a rainstorm!
    Jay

  34. #244
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    It seems I now have two threads in one! The work on "Bright Star" is progressing nicely. One of my friends, Tom Carson, is making up a set of adapter plates for the new engine mount conversion. Tom has a company, known as Marine Fabricators. He has done a lot of work for me on both of our boats. I will post pictures as we progress.
    Jay

  35. #245
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    Default Re: Jay & Anne Greer's H28 Ketch "Bright Star"

    We have now gone through the engine installation in "Bright Star". Here is what we chose, a Beta 16 2cyl diesel. The dry weight of this engine is 208lbs. and the hp is sixteen. The engine arrived fully crated with no damage what so ever. Here you see our new mill just after removing the boxing. I might add that we are pretty happy with the choice we made!
    Jay

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