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Thread: Dunkirk the movie

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    The movie made it seem like the RAF were almost completely absent, except for the three Spitfires, and yet (at least) 143 RAF aircraft were lost (one historian suggests more) and 156 Luftwaffe aircraft.

    240 or so allied vessels were sunk, not including life boats.

    Reports on casualties seem to vary between Wiki and various history articles. There were 68,000 British casualties (3500 killed) and 290,000 French casualties (reports seem to differ but this appears to be those killed or wounded - more were captured). Germany appear to have lost 27,000 killed and 110,000 wounded (depending what you read???)

    Yet there is just no sense of the tragedy of any of those things in this movie........it really just seemed like someone had the bright idea of making a movie around the Dunkirk Little Ships re-enactment - and did it on the cheap at that. A real missed opportunity.
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  2. #37
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    Well, the returning soldiers did criticize the RAF for being absent. They didn't know that the RAF were heavily involved because the air battles were fought away from the beaches. So I read.

    Rick

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    I will not be seeing it but here is an email from a friend who has (he is a Master Mariner who has held command of very large tankers)


    After reading all the positive, almost ecstatic, reviews of the movie "Dunkirk" I went to see it last night, full of expectation.


    I came away from the theatre feeling disappointed. There is no doubt that the cinematography is impressive - it was filmed in imax format I believe - which had the effect of immersing the audience in the events on the screen.But the storyline was weak, and the acting rather flat and patchy with no notable performances. I think the real stars were the imax camera men.


    The film does not use CGI, which is a pleasant change I guess, but it simply lacked substance. By this I mean they did not use enough extras on the beach, nor small boats, to realistically represent the scale of the event. A bit like a Cornish pasty without the filling.


    However what really annoyed me were the fundamental errors made, and I certainly only spotted a few of them. As follows:

    They used a number of naval vessels, among them the French destroyer Maillé-Brézé which was towed around. But this vessel was commissioned in the late 1950's and just did not look like a WW2 warship.



    I caught a very brief shot of a mooring rope used by the hospital ship. It was brand new 8 strand synthetic fibre plaited rope, big enough for at least a Panamax vessel. The biggest synthetic cordage in WW2 was that used for parachute cord.


    At one point a small warship - corvette size - was hit and is sinking. We see black heavy fuel oil on the sea and survivors in the water covered in the oil. We then see a Heinkel (I think) that has been shot up by a Spitfire descending in a dive into the area where the bunker fuel has spread and upon impact the Heinkel explodes and the oil ignites into an inferno. This simply would not happen. At best the Heinkel's aviation fuel might ignite, but the fuel certainly would not. Its flash point and ignition temperature are too high - try setting fire to marine fuel oil in a pan with an oxy-acetylene torch, good luck. But fuel spread over the sea - effectively water cooled - just ain't going to burn. Look how difficult it was to set fire to the oil spill from the Torrey Canyon or even Exxon Valdez, and these ships were carrying crude oil, which is far more flammable than fuel oil.



    Towards the end we see a heroic Spitfire pilot fighting German aircraft to protect the evacuees until he runs out of fuel over the Dunkirk beach. He is by this time at about I guess not more than 500 feet. The glide descent ratio of a Cessna 172 is about 9:1 so it will advance about 0.75 of a mile before it hits the ground if the glide starts at 500 feet. Even if the Spitfire is twice this (which I doubt) then the best he can do is 1.5 miles, but the bugger seems to glide forever.In any event the pilot lands the Spit on the beach safely and as he gets out we see container cranes in the back ground. Malcolm McLean would have spotted that one.


    I expect with a second viewing it would be possible to spot much more.

    But what really annoys me is that there is only a passing nod to the French defence of Dunkerque. In fact we see one French soldier cast in a very negative light as he tries to escape posing as a British soldier. Perhaps this is to appeal to an American audience who have been brought up on stories of French cowardice. This is just wrong. About 40,000 French soldiers fought and died defending Dunkerque so that the evacuation could be accomplished. Furthermore there was virtually no representation of the 120,000 French soldiers who were also evacuated to fight another day - and they did. From the outset of WW2 the French fought bravely with what they had against an overwhelming superior force, and they lost. But by no means are they cowards and their defense of Dunkerque should have been, and needs to be, a critical part of any story about the evacuation.



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  4. #39
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    I haven't seen it and don't know if I will now ,but it looks as if the key to enjoyment is "suspension of disbelief", especially regarding historical errors .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    I haven't seen it and don't know if I will now ,but it looks as if the key to enjoyment is "suspension of disbelief", especially regarding historical errors .
    this crowd is not the average public...
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  6. #41
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    Again, the film was very powerful for my two sons, who are the right age to have been on that beach. It wasn't the improbable Spitfire landing, the incorrect cordage, the beaches clear of blood.

    It was the terror, and the quiet but disciplined response to it. And later, the young serviceman reading Churchill's words from the newspaper.

    Made for quite a conversation after the film credits rolled.
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    I didn't know that Whameller. I'm a red duster guy if I have to be, then occasionally Y Ddraig Goch.
    Probably more info than you want here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Ensign , Hwyl.

    I also fly the Saltire when the mood takes me, which excites the dragon-friendly natives of these parts - even in Little England Beyond Wales !
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    I didn't notice the modern stuff. I did think the plane shooting down another after he ran out of fuel was pretty silly.

    Rick
    Very confusing in the way the director cut back and forth in time. My take is that he ran out of fuel while he was approaching the target and fired successfully anyway.

    The way the film was cut, it's appears that he ran out of fuel and then took a glide around the countryside before the shoots iy down.
    Last edited by Jim Bow; 08-02-2017 at 01:24 AM.
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  9. #44
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    Here's an article on how they filmed the air to air scenes.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...hts/513407001/
    “What, Me Worry?". -. A. E. Newman

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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    I would like to go and see it tonight.

    Am a little put off by the negative reports in this thread, but will try and forget them - until the film is over - and enjoy it for what it is i.e. a movie for entertainment and not a historical documentary.
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    The flying is hokey, especially the through-the-gunsight scenes. In real life, that kind of maneuvering is violent. The roll rates are extreme and the evading aircraft pitches to the point of blackout. The film is all gentle and lethargic. Which would be instant suicide for the evading aircraft.

    And Spitfires are heavy-nosed aircraft. The tail is very light. They are always trying to stand on their nose. Trying to land one on a beach with the wheels down would only be attempted if you saw a heavy vehicle drive across a surface just before -- and knew the surface was hard. And since that is very unlikely, it's far safer to land on the belly. You're less likely to end up on your back that way, pinned in the cockpit.

    All movies require suspension of disbelief. Errors intrude upon that.

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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    The flying is hokey, especially the through-the-gunsight scenes. In real life, that kind of maneuvering is violent. The roll rates are extreme and the evading aircraft pitches to the point of blackout. The film is all gentle and lethargic. Which would be instant suicide for the evading aircraft.

    And Spitfires are heavy-nosed aircraft. The tail is very light. They are always trying to stand on their nose. Trying to land one on a beach with the wheels down would only be attempted if you saw a heavy vehicle drive across a surface just before -- and knew the surface was hard. And since that is very unlikely, it's far safer to land on the belly. You're less likely to end up on your back that way, pinned in the cockpit.

    All movies require suspension of disbelief. Errors intrude upon that.
    Don't get me started on Lord of the Rings.
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    Dave, you set some pretty high standards. I don't think the film makers took into account, that there would be actual Spitfire pilots watching it.

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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    @Dave Did you know that the actually landed the Spitfire on the beach for that scene? People stopped and cheered. I know that no real Spitfire landed there during the battle, but still, its an impressive attempt to make the film real.

    All the air battle scenes shot in the cockpit were shot in a real plane (a Yak) with two seats, while performing aerobatics.

    @Andrew in response to your friends criticism (most of which are true) they brought 6,000 live extras in to make the film, no CGI crowds anywhere. 6,000 people is a lot, and its a substantial portion of the number of soldiers on either the beach or the mole.

    I understand why a knowledgeable person might not enjoy the film, but the director made a great effort to create a very good film as you can see from the two lines above.
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hunter View Post
    @Dave Did you know that the actually landed the Spitfire on the beach for that scene? People stopped and cheered. I know that no real Spitfire landed there during the battle, but still, its an impressive attempt to make the film real.

    All the air battle scenes shot in the cockpit were shot in a real plane (a Yak) with two seats, while performing aerobatics.

    @Andrew in response to your friends criticism (most of which are true) they brought 6,000 live extras in to make the film, no CGI crowds anywhere. 6,000 people is a lot, and its a substantial portion of the number of soldiers on either the beach or the mole.

    I understand why a knowledgeable person might not enjoy the film, but the director made a great effort to create a very good film as you can see from the two lines above.

    I disagree Tom, in film making those two lines do not signify any particular effort at all, let alone any great effort.
    Larks

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  16. #51
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post

    And Spitfires are heavy-nosed aircraft. The tail is very light. They are always trying to stand on their nose. Trying to land one on a beach with the wheels down would only be attempted if you saw a heavy vehicle drive across a surface just before -- and knew the surface was hard. And since that is very unlikely, it's far safer to land on the belly. You're less likely to end up on your back that way, pinned in the cockpit.
    .
    But this one had no engine Dave, so probably wouldn’t have been so nose heavy and therefore the glide landing may have been reasonably accurate???....?????
    Larks

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  18. #53
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    I haven't seen it, but everytime I watch a a flick or show set in pre-1492 Europe and I see fields of corn, or potatoes on the table, or tomatoes, or carts full of corn... Let's just say my brother can't stand watching these things with me.

    Now I'm ruined because I didn't know anything about cranes but now I know. Dammit guys.

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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    Similar issues with the movie Lincoln, unfortunately, and the missing Frederick Douglass or the great camp of refugees that were in Washington at the time.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/13/op...haracters.html

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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    Very in Brexit world .
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    I don’t believe it was as intentional as the author suggests Gareth. The whole movie is missing so many relevant elements that I doubt that any consideration of race or colour of extras or actors was even on the radar.

    I’ve been stewing on why this movie has irritated me so much and I think it is because it seemed to promise to tell an epic story of a significant event and it simply did not deliver. I believe that it has really paid short shift to that event, from the allied and German and from military and civilian perspectives and was a waste of an opportunity. The civilians who mobilised to carry out the evacuation were the real heroes of the action and that certainly didn’t come across.

    I really hope someone comes along and realises that it is a story that deserves telling properly and gives it the “effort” and impact that it deserves.
    Larks

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    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    I’ve been stewing on why this movie has irritated me so much and I think it is because it seemed to promise to tell an epic story of a significant event and it simply did not deliver. I believe that it has really paid short shift to that event, from the allied and German and from military and civilian perspectives and was a waste of an opportunity. The civilians who mobilised to carry out the evacuation were the real heroes of the action and that certainly didn’t come across.

    I really hope someone comes along and realises that it is a story that deserves telling properly and gives it the “effort” and impact that it deserves.
    I agree.

    I saw it last night.

    Was very disappointed with the editing and continuity.

    Daylight scenes then to night scenes, then back to day.
    The 'little ship' crossing the Channel - seems like it was entirely on its own until the very end. It took too long to cross the channel (day, night and day) which is about 24 miles (Dover to Dunkirk) even at 6 mph it would have been there in 4 hours. Even at 3 mph would have taken only 8 hours, not overnight.

    The evacuation of soldiers from the beaches and harbour of Dunkirk took place over 9 days between 26 May and 4 June 1940 with over 800 boats. Even the recent tribute voyage had (50+) boats, which seemed a LOT more than was shown in the film.

    Modern backgrounds should have been 'smoked' out by special effects.

    That must be the world record for a Spitfire gliding up and down a beach.

    Spitfire, burning at end scene, had a straight rod from prop to firewall, having had the Rolls Royce V12 27 liter aero engine apparently melted or vaporized in the few minutes of burning!!!

    Yep, I was sadly disappointed.

    Mind you the ticket cost US$4.44.

    PS The film got PC by just referring to "the enemy' and not the 'Germans', 'German army' etc.
    Last edited by Rum_Pirate; 08-02-2017 at 10:45 AM.
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  23. #58
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    The Director of Dunkirk (2017 film) had lost of other material:

    See also[edit]

    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    I don’t believe it was as intentional as the author suggests Gareth. The whole movie is missing so many relevant elements that I doubt that any consideration of race or colour of extras or actors was even on the radar.

    I’ve been stewing on why this movie has irritated me so much and I think it is because it seemed to promise to tell an epic story of a significant event and it simply did not deliver. I believe that it has really paid short shift to that event, from the allied and German and from military and civilian perspectives and was a waste of an opportunity. The civilians who mobilised to carry out the evacuation were the real heroes of the action and that certainly didn’t come across.

    I really hope someone comes along and realises that it is a story that deserves telling properly and gives it the “effort” and impact that it deserves.
    I was disappointed also. And this is the best explanation as to why.
    First of all, I will say the storyline of the sea worked, and was by far the best. But in the other two storylines (the beach and air) there was little if no real character development. On air, this made since. As to the beach, it made it almost impossible for me to keep track of who was who. My wife had the same problem.
    Also, (again excepting for the sea storyline), it was emotionally flat.

    Finally, the beach storyline didn't even tell the story of the typical soldier on the beach. The sea and air: yes. But not the beach. They chose a storyline that wasn't that realistic, and certainly wasn't typical of the experience.

    I don't know how to tell this story, but I think this movie failed.

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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    Even if you find Neistat obnoxious, scroll through to 5 minutes.


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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    Finally got to see it today with Mr Sibley. I quite liked it. I liked the way it brought all the elements together into describing from the different perspectives the one incident, namely the sinking of a destroyer ladened with troops
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    The CGI was excellent, the little ships too. I really enjoyed it.
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    This is quite excellent if you want something more indepth.

    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

    John Welsford

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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    This is quite excellent if you want something more indepth.

    ????
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    [QUOTE=WX;5316353]This is quite excellent if you want something more indepth.]

    Nothing showing Gary.
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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    [QUOTE=PeterSibley;5316360]
    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    This is quite excellent if you want something more indepth.]

    Nothing showing Gary.
    Okay how about this, it's pt 2?
    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3l9v79
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

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    Default Re: Dunkirk the movie

    [QUOTE=WX;5316365]
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Okay how about this, it's pt 2?
    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3l9v79
    One slight technically error though...who can spot the aircraft that don't belong?
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

    John Welsford

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