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Thread: Can't sell home-built boat in Pennsylvania?

  1. #1
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    Default Can't sell home-built boat in Pennsylvania?

    Just spoke to a notary and I was told that it is illegal to sell a home built boat in the state of Pennsylvania? Anyone else ever heard of this? She said it was a new regulation passed in the last couple years. I'm not looking to sell but it surprised me.

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    I doubt it.
    But there may be regulations that makes it hard, say it must be buildt to plans that are in some way accepted and that the build is controlled by some authority to be sound if not built by a regular shipyard.
    This is just me guessing though.

    /Mats

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    Appears to be true! https://www.fishandboat.com/Learning...onTitling.aspx

    see #17 in link for details.

    How draconian!!!
    Skip

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    Yea I just found it myself. Not sure what overbearing beauracrat is trying to save the world from home built boats but thank goodness big brother is here to save us.

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    Yea I just found it myself. Not sure what overbearing beauracrat is trying to save the world from home built boats but thank goodness they're here to save us.

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    From the subject line I thought this was about real estate!!

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    That is crazy.
    Even here, as far as I know, you can build a car and if it passes the tests you may drive and sell it. Actually I think you can sell it even if it doesn't pass the tests, only the new owner cannot drive it.

    /Mats

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    Ben,

    that restriction on sale of homemade boats does not appear to be codified. I found no evidence of it here: https://www.fishandboat.com/Transact...dbook_boat.pdf

    It may be a bureaucratic rule with Fish and Game but does not appear to be law in Pennsylvania.

    I'm getting ready to register my boat build here in Virginia and your post got my curiosity up. The regulations here see more clearly defined.
    Last edited by SKIP KILPATRICK; 07-19-2019 at 03:53 PM.
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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    Wonder if it is nanny-governing or rent seeking to protect boat manufacturers from individuals such as Brock skiff fellow. I would ignore it either way.

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    Even if it's not law, the fact that some people suspects that it is may be troubeling.
    Not that it affects me here in viking-land.

    /Mats

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    I see some home built boats for sale on Craigslist in Pennsylvania, so someone thinks they can sell them.

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    Mats, in the EU selling a home built boat is forbidden within 5 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by mohsart View Post
    Even if it's not law, the fact that some people suspects that it is may be troubeling.
    Not that it affects me here in viking-land.

    /Mats

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    The PA code doesn't seem to say that it can't be sold. Just that you need a bill of sale for the major components when you apply for a title.


    https://www.fishandboat.com/Transact...dbook_boat.pdf
    Handbook for IssuingPennsylvania Boat Registrations and TitlesPennsylvania Fish & Boat Commission (PFB

    Search Results

    Your search for "homemade boat" returned 2 matches. Showing: 1 - 2 Click here to Search Again
    58 Pa. Code § 93.14. Proof of ownership for initial registration. (Summary of hits with search terms highlighted)
    58 Pa. Code § 93.101. Definitions (Summary of hits with search terms highlighted)

    EDIT:
    Title 58 Chapter 93: https://www.pacode.com/secure/data/0...chap93toc.html
    Title 58: https://www.pacode.com/secure/data/058/058toc.html
    No mention of blueprints.

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    Last edited by MN Dave; 07-20-2019 at 11:23 AM.
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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    After the original owner builder receives a title I doubt that the state can differentiate a home built from any other.

    "The Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission (PFBC) will only accept applications from the original builder"

    Meaning don't buy a untitled boat.

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    It's clearly states on the pa fish and boat commission that homebuilt boats cannot be sold in the state of Pennsylvania. I'm almost positive that line wasnt there the last time I looked at the website. My build has taken me 3 years and it seems they've changed their regs in that time.
    Last edited by Just Plain Ben; 07-19-2019 at 10:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    "Building a boat from blue prints may require a marine survey and stability test by a certified marine surveyor."

    I believe that language is new as well. Hopefully I dont have too much trouble registering. Hard to say when they use the word "may"?

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?


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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    The way I read it (and I've been called an optimist) is that you cannot set yourself up building boats in your garage and sell them without becoming a recognized manufacturer, if you are running a business they want to get whatever taxes and fees they are entitled to collect. As the builder you can title the boat in your name and sell it at some point in the future, the key is having titled it in the first place.

    Like I wrote, I tend towards the optimistic.
    Steve

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    Quote Originally Posted by entrenous71 View Post
    Mats, in the EU selling a home built boat is forbidden within 5 years.
    While not home built per se, the school I went to are selling about one boat per year, some students buy the boat they build and sell it themselves for a small profit. At least one more boat building school works in the same way.
    Some of the students keeps building boats and sell them after school, I know of at least five from my relativly short stay.
    There are also home built boats for sail in the boating magazines.
    You may be right, but I'd say that if so, the law isn't enforced. Also, I stand by that such a law is stupid.

    /Mats

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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    As one who lives in Pennsylvania with four home-built boats in the garage and another almost completed, this thread piques my interest.

    First, I'm not surprised that the Fish & Boat folks would toss in a new rule without talking to the folks in the Legislature. The Fish & Boat agency has always had a lot of attitude.

    If your boat, homemade or otherwise, does not have a motor, you don't need to register it. You just need a launch permit. And as such, when you sell the boat, you don't tell the government about the sale anymore than you would selling a lawn mower.

    If it's registered, which two of my motor-free home-made boats are, this new rule might be tested. I could just remove the registration stickers and sell it as is. The boat on a trailer would just need the trailer title transferred. If it were home-built with a motor, then the rule could not be avoided -- the new owner would need to get a registration sticker somehow or another.

    My current build is from a CLC kit. Now, CLC will give me a HIN, and has told me to register it not as a homebuilt, but as a boat manufactured by CLC. This is what I'll do, or at least attempt to do. CLC says it will work -- but will it given this apparent change in attitude by the state? I'll find out soon enough.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    Gentrification, Lawyers, Litigation
    Rules and regulations, we could use a few million fewer..(but not in the Trump vein).

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    Quote Originally Posted by entrenous71 View Post
    Mats, in the EU selling a home built boat is forbidden within 5 years.
    Not quite true. If you get it passed the Recreational Craft Directive, then you can sell it under five years. Just tricky and possibly €€€.
    A2

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Gentrification, Lawyers, Litigation
    Rules and regulations, we could use a few million fewer..(but not in the Trump vein).
    Now now, Bruce, this is for the Bilge.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdChJwDKFmI
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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    Andrew, I wish you were right, believe me. Complying with the directive demands serious paperwork, post construction assesment etc that would be cost prohibitive for an occassional buidler...

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    It is a new dieective, so it is possible that it is not yet fully enforced in Sweden. The directive can be perhaps circumvented if one pays the school for the used material and not the boat itself...

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    Default Re: Can't sell home-built boat in Pennsylvania?

    Stormbogs post ( #18) has it right. the wording from fish& game is very poorly written. and not new, but it's been written to exclude backyard shipyards from trying to register their newly built boats as a HB.. this was something I ran up against when registering my HB boat, back in '85. just take your receipts with you when you go to the registrars.
    Last edited by the_gr8t_waldo; 07-20-2019 at 12:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Can't sell home-built boat in Pennsylvania?

    Worst Case: Form an LLC: "Pissed Taxpayer Yacht Yard"

    Then it will be, " professionally built," not, "home built."



    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    Quote Originally Posted by entrenous71 View Post
    It is a new dieective, so it is possible that it is not yet fully enforced in Sweden. The directive can be perhaps circumvented if one pays the school for the used material and not the boat itself...
    That is actually exactly what the students do. I wonder about if it's then legal for them to sell the boat.
    I also wonder where the burden of truth lies. And how a new boat is defined, if I build a boat and not paint the topsides until five years later, if some cleats are not installed until five years has passed, if the boat is done and complete but the mast and rigging is done five years later...

    /Mats

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    "watercraft built for own use, provided that they are not subsequently placed on the Union market during a period of five years from the putting into service of the watercraft"

    putting into service does not necessarily mean the same thing across Europe - only in some places you need to register smaller crafts... italy and belgium are relatively relaxed compared to some other states...
    Last edited by entrenous71; 07-20-2019 at 12:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Can't sell home-built boat in Pennsylvania?

    Well, when you hear a Libertarian complaining about the Administrative State, this is his peeve.

    Could get interesting. What if it was a documented, out of state boat, sold to a PA resident? Now we are bumping into the Commerce Clause.

    My boat would be especially interesting. It was built by a now famous Maine boat builder. Early in his career, before he owned his own shop. So when documented, USCG gave it a home built HIN.

    If it was unsafe, you think someone would have noticed it some time in the last 33 years.

    Fortunately, I don't live in PA, so I won't need to start the legal challenge.
    Heute ist so ein schöne Tag...

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    Default Re: Can't sell home-built boat in Pennsylvania?

    There should at least be a distinction between boats and boats.
    If I build a pram to a neighbor and tell him to stay in shallow waters is quite different from if I'd build a Colin Archer and say it's safe to use going around the world.
    I still wonder about the burden of truth.
    How could anyone prove anything about when the boat was built? When it was launched? When it was first used?

    /Mats

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    Default Re: Can't sell home-built boat in Pennsylvania?

    eh...a Colin Archer IS safe to go around the world.

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    Default Re: Can't sell home-built boat in Pennsylvania?

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    eh...a Colin Archer IS safe to go around the world.
    If it's properly built.

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    Default Re: Can't sell home-built boat in Pennsylvania?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    If it's properly built.
    Yes, that was my point.
    If a pram collapses in shallow waters it's probably not the end of the world.
    Not that a larger boat in deeper seas is the end of the world either, but it may be the end of the life of the owner.
    I can see a need of control and registration of larger/faster/more advanced vessels, perhaps a Colin Archer should not be allowed to be sold without it being controlled for safety. I'm not saying it should, but I understand why one would argue that it should.
    But a pram or a canoe? Or a raft?

    /Mats

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    Default Re: Can't sell home built in Pennsylvania?

    Quote Originally Posted by mohsart View Post
    While not home built per se, the school I went to are selling about one boat per year, some students buy the boat they build and sell it themselves for a small profit. At least one more boat building school works in the same way.
    Some of the students keeps building boats and sell them after school, I know of at least five from my relativly short stay.
    There are also home built boats for sail in the boating magazines.
    You may be right, but I'd say that if so, the law isn't enforced. Also, I stand by that such a law is stupid.

    /Mats
    Are they new designs with modern materials and techniques, or replicas of old traditional boat types? Authentic replicas are exempt from the RCD.
    Has the design passed the stability and swamp test, so that all subsequent builds are compliant?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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