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Thread: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

  1. #1
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    Post Aussie Argie 15 Build for Sailing and Fishing

    Hello all.

    Firstly, thank you to all the posters on here for your input in this forum. I've learnt a lot. Thank you especially for posting your mistakes as well as your triumphs. We learn more from these sometimes!

    Well the plans and patterns are ordered and posted so I guess the gun has fired for this build.

    Living on the bay, it’s time I built a boat so I can enjoy this beautiful area of the world. So much protected water here!!

    The Argie 15 was chosen because I liked the look of it. That was pretty much it. It looks pretty stable too, which I liked. Also it is a fairly simple design and this is my first boat build.

    Here are a couple that others have built...





    Design can be found here: http://www.dixdesign.com/argie15.htm

    Some people on here have done some amazing things with this design and you were my inspiration (@capefox, @Fudzwollop and others). I plan on using the boat to sail in, but also as a fishing vessel from time to time. A 6-10hp motor will at times be bolted to the transom for some versatility.

    The boat (at this stage) will be built with a balanced lug sail, engine mount on the transom, fibreglass bottom, side seating, storage for fishing rods, and I want some technology on board. A boat trailer will be used to launch it.

    Initial questions:

    1. I have two choices of 6mm ply from a reputable source. In my price range, it’s either gaboon or pink marine (otherwise known as red meranti or pacific maple). I understand the gaboon (9kg per sheet) is lighter but the pink marine (11.2kg per sheet) should be stronger (shouldn’t it?). I’ll be using 8 sheets all up. As I plan on running an outboard occasionally, should I go the pink marine for strength? I figure 8.4kg difference in the ply selection is not that much for this type of boat?? Correct me if I’m wrong, but rot would be less an issue too, wouldn’t it with the pink marine? Pink marine is $50 per sheet cheaper too. Designer states that both timbers are fine for this boat.

    2. Should I choose a thicker ply in the transom due to the outboard motor? The plans state that it should be good for a 10HP motor as is (6mm), but would YOU go a little thicker on the transom if it was your project?

    3. Would it be advantageous to butt join the sheets together before marking out and cutting the sides and bottom to ensure the lines are true? Could the cutting, moving damage the joins in some way (assuming I was careful).

    Thank you in advance for any help/advice/constructive criticism you may offer. What a great community for this kind of project you all are!!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Greenman; 07-28-2017 at 04:09 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Hei

    Good idea with luggsail. I am also building Argie with a lug-rig, and I believe it is a great advantage when using it for fishing.

    1. The stich and glue design is very light, so I guess some more weight for extra strenght is worth it.

    2. You could always strenghten the transom where the motor is mounted, I believe I would. (I am building for rowing or an electric, so no problem here)

    3. Others will tell you, I am sure :-)

    looking forward to follow your build. Have you also considered standing lug?

    Regards

    Fred

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    I can't praise my boomless Standing Lug enough... looking forward to following your build Greenman.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Thanks guys.

    I am trying to source 50mm fibreglass tape for fillets. I note that if you buy the Argie 15 as a kit, you get 9oz tape (approx. 300gsm). I also note that most places only stock 200 gsm tapes (6oz). Am I overthinking it to believe that 6oz won't be strong enough? I don't want to under-engineer this thing with the amount of hours and $$ that will go into it.

    Opinions much appreciated.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    200 gsm on both side and a good fillet, and I believe you rip apart the plywood long before the fillet! But I have not tested it ;-) You could also make a little test with two pieced joined this way, to get a feel of how strong it gets.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenman View Post
    Thanks guys.

    I am trying to source 50mm fibreglass tape for fillets. I note that if you buy the Argie 15 as a kit, you get 9oz tape (approx. 300gsm). I also note that most places only stock 200 gsm tapes (6oz). Am I overthinking it to believe that 6oz won't be strong enough? I don't want to under-engineer this thing with the amount of hours and $$ that will go into it.

    Opinions much appreciated.
    Yeah....lol. 200gsm either side after the fillet and the joint can get passed onto your great grand kids after the rest of the boat has rotted away. I had a boat come off the trailer at 95km an hour. It landed on the rudder and tore the rudder clean off the boat. I had joined the rudder with one small fillet and one peice of 200gsm tape around it. The joint was solid, it tore a big peice of the transom wood out around the rudder to come free. None of the other joints budged either.....patched up the transom and went sailing a week later. Payson says the join will be stronger than the wood either side of the join and he's right!!!

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Hiya, you might do well to consider where youre going to keep you Argie and how steep the launch ramp is. Although the stitch and glue method is very light I'd sacrifice some strength to give maouverability on the trailer. Especially if you're going to be single handed. The lighter ply should be fine. Especially if your glassing the outside too. I used gaboon on mine. Seems plenty strong enough.

    As to joining the sheets together before cutting... I didn't. The disadvantage if you do is the weight of both sheets and the weekness of the joint on the vertical plane. Moving the double sheets about might be tricky. On the other hand it would avoid the mistake i made in cutting the scarph on the wrong side..... thats why my argie is 3 inches shorter than everyone elses.... oops!

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Awesome. 200gsm it is then. I'll be launching from a boat trailer an we have relatively new boat ramps installed here. Launching won't be an issue.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Seems "stuff" has appeared in the garage....


    Looks like I'll be having a crack at scarfing the joins too...


    Also just worked out how to upload the photos properly.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Congratulations. I think you've selected a great boat. Am looking forward to following your progress here.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Thanks mchex

    Well I started the prep work for the scarf joints. It was going to take forever with a hand plane so I started with the electric plane, then moved onto the hand plane, then onto the electric sander. I will finish with a long sanding block. It doesn't need to be perfect as I am not finishing bright.

    The prep for the scarf was not as scary as I initially thought. Should end up ok. I have plenty of time as the plans will take a few weeks to get to here.






  12. #12
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Something tells me this will be a good boat in the end! Waiting for plans you said? Mine took 0,5 seconds (pdf via email in a zip file) Just ask if you need other info on preparations you can do. That said, I recomend building a bench to lift the build up from the floor 50cm or so (Your back will thank you :-))

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    I second that. Even with a raised bench it felt like a real workout on some days. I had my bench (made out of an old bed frame) on castors so I could move it around the work-space which was limited.
    Be careful while moving the scarfed pieces once they are glued. Until you get them all joined together the joints are still vulnerable as they are great long planks of wood. I lifted my port hand topside and heard a crack that had me reaching for the fiber glass tape. Perfectly strong once held by the surrounding pieces though.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Greenman,

    I ordered my plans from Duckworks and they got here fast. Maybe yours will be in hand quickly too.

    A nice looking scarf stack! Seriously.



    I feel that I need to warn you about something you will discover on the plans. Dix calls for the plywood sheets to be butted together end-to-end. Some of the boat panels are drawn pretty tight to the space. By scarfing you just cost yourself whatever length your scarf is. There is some wiggle room, by which I mean a couple of cms. to shift here and there and close up some of the gaps. You need to watch your panel layouts carefully to make sure the drawn pieces won't overlap.

    Take a good look at the plan sheets before you begin. Realize that what Dix thinks ought to be 192" is going to be like 190" instead. Dix also gives laying-out dimensions from the edges of the panels and you may no longer be able to use some of them; just be careful. If it all won't fit, then go for the bottom and the four side panels: you can always buy other wood later on for the seat tops.

    Forewarned is forearmed. If you pay attention I think you can get it out.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Thanks all. Really appreciate the comments (help).

    Mchex, I have ordered the full scale plans and from what I gather, there is an inch either side not used on the ply (I really hope this is right!!). The scarf is 48mm, so effectively I only lose 48mm in total with the scarf. It will be very close though. Nothing like living on the edge!!!

  16. #16
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    Question Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Can I ask a couple of things that have me stumped?


    1. Why do people cut out the ply 2-5mm outside the drawn lines and then sand it back to the line? Does the jigsaw really damage the edges so that you can't cut to the lines? Couldn't I just use a blade with many small teeth to minimise the risk and cut to the line? It is a stitch and glue after all??
    2. Should I bevel the edges of the ply so that the edges butt up to each other where possible?
    3. Can I spray the full size plans with glue and then stick them to the ply before cutting them out?
    4. When gluing the scarf, can I just use the normal epoxy? Do I really need thickener? If the epoxy has a 45 minute pot life, can I apply one coat of normal epoxy to the scarfs, give it time to sink into the end grain (15 mins or so) and then apply another coat before joining the sheets?


    Sorry for the newb questions. Any comments on any of the four above points will be much appreciated.

    Paul.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Hiya here's my input:

    1. Cutting with a jigsaw is a bit hit and miss. If you try to follow the line you'll end up with a wavy cut as its really easy to go off course. If the wave isn't too bad this will be averaged out when you join the two pieces so it's up to you how accurate you want to be. Best to give yourself some wiggle room (literally) otherwise you might end up with a wobbly chine. The tear out will be unavoidable but it gets covered with tape and epoxy so I didn't worry about it. Some builders score the wood with a knife first to help alleviate it. Keep a pair of pointed pliers or tweezers handy to dig out the inevitable splinters from your hands ;-)

    2. Yes bevel the edges where they meet. It as surprising how much difference this made. Doesn't need to be much but it helps stop the panels riding up over each other. A couple of passes with a block plane will do it.

    3. I guess you could glue to patterns to the wood but then you'd have to get them off again. I'd try pinning them with thumb tacks instead.

    4. thickening the epoxy on the scarf will take up any voids that might appear if the pressure isn't sufficient to squeeze the joints together in all places. I'd use un-thickened first to soak in then a slightly thickened mix for the second coat before joining. Catch the squeeze out before it hardens too much if you can.
    Best to mix enough epoxy for each phase. I used 60ml medicine cups and rarely wasted any. Get some mixing pumps if you can it'll make your life so much easier and well worth the cost. Also a big box of tongue depressors for mixing and spreading is helpful. I used them for filleting as well.

    Hope that helps. Don't worry about asking questions. That's kind of the point of the forum ain't it :-)
    Last edited by Nikky; 07-27-2017 at 03:15 AM.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Cut the ply with a Japanese saw. It's quick, easy and you can cut virtually on the line with only minor sanding here and there once the cut is complete. This works on short cuts and also cutting the full length of an 8 foot sheet of ply. Following gentle curves is easy and you can even follow tighter curves with a narrower bladed saw. Did I say I love Japanese saws?

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Before I forget: The plans says stiching with copper wire. I used plastic strips, and it was easy and fast to stich the hull together. The seams got very styrdy. Ofcours buy strips with a good quality, and find a teqnique to tighten them well. One big advantage is that ou can let them stay in after gluing, just cut of all that sticks out, with a knife (or a japanese saw .)

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    I used copper for the stitching and bandages for my hands. Couldn't help catching those sharp edges but I'd read on another forum that zip ties couldnt be pulled tight enough. Would definitely try the plastic strips next time.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    I used a needle nose plier to take a grip on the strips, and then I turned it around to tighten the strip. Kind of rolled the strip on to the plier. Worked very well. Must do it on the outside of the hull ofcourse. Never tried copper wire because I needed only one plastic strip to tell me i didn`t need to. Hardest part on Argie is the bow. If you are going to paint the hull, you ca bore the holes a little bigger and use some of the widest strips there, to be able to pull it a bit harder.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    In response to your questions:


    1. Why do people cut out the ply 2-5mm outside the drawn lines and then sand it back to the line? Does the jigsaw really damage the edges so that you can't cut to the lines? Couldn't I just use a blade with many small teeth to minimise the risk and cut to the line? It is a stitch and glue after all??
      I tried cutting to the line exactly with a superfine jigsaw blade. It worked OK but it was painfully slow. Cutting outside the line and block planing to the line was MUCH faster and easier.
    2. Should I bevel the edges of the ply so that the edges butt up to each other where possible?
      I don't understand what you're trying to do.
    3. Can I spray the full size plans with glue and then stick them to the ply before cutting them out?
      People have done this successfully, but you might be better served by carefully tacking it into place, with pins/small tacks.
    4. When gluing the scarf, can I just use the normal epoxy? Do I really need thickener? If the epoxy has a 45 minute pot life, can I apply one coat of normal epoxy to the scarfs, give it time to sink into the end grain (15 mins or so) and then apply another coat before joining the sheets?
      If your scarfs are superhumanly accurate and well-fitting, unthickened epoxy will suffice. However, most people need thickened epoxy to prevent voids in case there are some less than perfect fitting scarfs. I would coat each side of the joint with unthickened epoxy, give it 10 minutes to sink into the grain, butter one of the pieces with thickened epoxy (Aerosil/Cabosil), and then fit and clamp the scarf joint. Give it two days to cure up very well in room temps. 150-grit ROS should clean the joint up nicely.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Thank you Nikky, Roy, Fredostli and capefox. That info really helps!!! I'd be absolutely lost without the input here.

    Well I went to the mailbox this morning and still no plans. Time to get busy joining some sheets....

    Setting out on the garage floor (baking paper and grease proof paper underneath, just in case)...


    I was surprised how well the scarfs matched up. Very happy with the outcome...


    Put a nail through the sheet at each end to prevent the scarf from sliding when the weight goes on...


    Coated each side with regular epoxy, waited 10 minutes and then coated one side with thickened epoxy. This was the join prior to weighing it down to dry...


    Now to find anything to apply weight to the join...


    Anything...


    I now have four sheets joined into 2 sheets. One more and i'm done. It's the subtropics here (but in winter). Do you reckon it would be ready in 24 hours to move or leave it for 48 hours? Keen to get the other sheet done.
    Last edited by Greenman; 07-28-2017 at 08:14 AM.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Looks suspiciously like you've commondeered the lounge. Good man! I'd leave it the best part of a week before moving. No reason you can't put some plastic over the joint and do the next one on top though.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Great idea Nikky. I'll glue the other sheet on top.

    i am a little worried that I didn't use enough glue. Excess is not coming out of the scarf. How do you determine if a join is sound? The scarf cut was perfect. I maybe should have layered the glue on thicker.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenman View Post
    i am a little worried that I didn't use enough glue. Excess is not coming out of the scarf. How do you determine if a join is sound? The scarf cut was perfect. I maybe should have layered the glue on thicker.
    I wouldn't worry about it right now. Later, as you cut out your marked panels, examine a cross section of the joint for voids in the epoxy. Alternatively, you could cut out a sample section or two in a fallow part of the panel (a place that would become a cutoff or scrap) and then examine cross section(s) for voids. If you find minor voids, you can just reinforce the scarf with FG cloth on both sides of the panel. I have a feeling things went fine because the joints appear to fit quite tightly and it wouldn't take much epoxy bog to fill it.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    It'll be fine. Just less to clean up and no waste. I had the same worries myself while the panels were settting. The waiting is horrible.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    I'd like to mention one more thing about not being concerned excessively about your scarf joints. You might recall the original Argie 15 as drawn in 1988 in South Africa required polyester and fiberglass cloth Payson butt joints. Even a mediocre execution of a scarf joint using epoxy is going to be much stronger than that. Moreover, look at the design and see how other elements combine to reinforce in the areas around the panel joints -- bulkheads, stringers, risers, seat tops, etc. Unless you used a very meager, Tinkerbell sprinkling of epoxy on the scarfs, I can't imagine your having future problems with joint epoxy starvation. I think you'll feel better once you cut your marked panels ans see the cross-section of the joint in several places is good to go.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Thanks capefox and nikky. Appreciate the assurance! You guys are awesome!

    Guess what arrived today......plans and patterns





    Mrs Greenman was good enough to assist me with marking out the first sheet with an awl and mallet initially, then a pen and straight edge for the straight sections and timber and pen for the curved ones. I hope to get it all three sheets marked out and cut by the end of the week. I thought I would get three full sized paper patterns and be able to glue them lightly to the ply but all the patterns came on the one sheet, overlapping each other, hence the need for the awl and mallet.

    Should I be marking out the stringers for the side seats now on the ply because I have noticed others do that? Also, how far from the edge do I drill the holes for the zip tie stitches when I get to that bit?
    Last edited by Greenman; 07-31-2017 at 04:51 AM.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Sweet! I drilled the holes about 1cm from the edge, maybe a touch less. I also drilled them once the panels were in situ so that I could be sure that the holes were next to each other. I used ropes to hold the ends of the panels up while I stitched.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    It looks like most of the photos on old Argie 15 journal are now useless thanks to Photo-kicked-the-Bucket. However, if memory serves me correctly I drilled the holes 6 mm from the edge of the panel. More of them in areas with more curvature to spread out the load. I used rebar tie wire. You'll be OK with 12.7 mm (1/2") though. I'm impressed with your execution of the project instructions so far. One trick you might want to use when aligning the panels is to insert small sections of dowels so that the edges of the panels are aligned flush.

    See the following image:
    Last edited by capefox; 07-31-2017 at 12:45 PM.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Thanks Nikky and capefox. Great helpful info and I used it!!

    Cutting out the panels. Found a terrific blade that minimised the splintering and was surprisingly fast! I only marked out the lower and upper panels on one sheet, then clamped the other ply panel underneath it (firmly). This resulted in a mirror image as well as a faster cut.


    While I was cutting, my cheeky 18 year old son had his brand new Dragon Kayak delivered. Mrs Greenman and I decided to try it out (sort of).



    Panels mostly all cut out. This went quicker than I thought it would.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Stitching has begun....Challenging job on your own.



    Mrs Greenman came to the rescue again, helping with the upper panels.




    The pieces of dow in the bow ties worked really well, capefox! Next job is to add some zipties, spread the beam and fit the transom, then square the boat up and tack the joins with epoxy.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    A neat and fast execution of this build. How did the cross sections of the scarf joints look? Were the pieces nice and snug with no voids in the epoxy? I'd expect they were.

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Argie 15 Build for sailing and fishing

    Looking very neat. You might have done it but don't forget to cut the groove in the bottom panel to help it bend to the transom shape. I used a v shaped router bit.

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