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Thread: When to Epoxy

  1. #1
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    Default When to Epoxy

    I am in the process of building my first cedar strip canoe. I have read several books about building strip boats, canoes, and kayaks. All seem to have different approaches when it comes to laying on the fiberglass and epoxy. The question I have is, what seems to be the consensus, put on a layer of epoxy before the fiberglass, or fiberglass and epoxy at the same time.

    What procedure do most use to epoxy and fiberglass the boat.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    I put a coat of epoxy on prior with my kayak. I then glassed before the first epoxy coat was cured so there would be a chemical bond. I wouldn't let the first coat cure fully if you go that route.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    I find that the glass slides around more easily over the bare strips. There's no function served by having a few mils' film under the glass.
    I lay the glass over the bare canoe and then pour epoxy onto it and spread around with yellow bondo spreaders.
    Especially on canoes, the glass is light enough that it's easy to wet out.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    It's handy to roll on unthickened epoxy and then place the glass before the epoxy fully goes off. This will not fully wet out, which is helpful as you handle the glass cloth. Gives you a chance to smooth the glass and work out the bubbles. There are, by the way, several ways to work out bubbles and I think some who do a lot t glassing than I have better ways than what I've done, so I'll leave that aside.

    Most small boat hull glassing takes some advantage of gravity. If you're on the outside of the hull, have the boat upsidedown and try to somewhat balance the glass so it does not slip off. While you should not roll on more epoxy than you can cover with glass fairly soon, as you get away from the horizontal it does help if the epoxy has just barely begun to kick as that helps keep the epoxy in place.

    A fiberglass (pre-epoxy) tale. The pic, sorry I could not rotate it, is of the apparatus Dad made for his PhD "Movement Thresholds in Periferal Vision". To make the thing, he blew up a weather balloon in the basement and glassed it.



    The first version was fully glassing the balloon on the theory that he'd then have two hemispheres. For the rest of his life he has no idea why. Anyway, he got it done and saw one place where the glass bulged a tad. So he patted it flat. Which punctured the balloon. And there we had a couple hundred pounds of rapidly setting glass in a heap in the basement . . .

    I remind friends that I come by my grander glass disasters genetically.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    The Gougeon brothers book, boat building with epoxy, recommends a coat of epoxy, allow to set up but not fully cure then apply fiberglass and wet it out. The reason, just like when putting fillers in your epoxy, is to apply a coat of un-thinned epoxy first to penetrate the wood. Then you can apply a thickened batch or glass as the case here. Epoxy works by penetrating the fibers of the wood and creates a microscopic mechanical bond with the material.

    The other way will work for sure, but the best practice is the one described in the book.
    A ship is safe in the harbor, but that's not what ships are for.

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    The book is best.

    I did not mention that once the glass is on, still before the first epoxy has cured, I wet out the cloth with unthickened epoxy. I use both a plastic spreader and a hard roller to smoosh the epoxy into the weave making it all translucent and leaving the warp and woof up so it's rather a dappled effect. Glass floats on epoxy so if you try to get it smooth at this point you'll have the glass a bit away from the wood. Later you can use thickened epoxy as part of fairing.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    But, truthfully, either way seems to work just fine. I've heard very knowledgeable builders argue each way. I'd follow the 'bible'... but it's closer to a coin-flip than many issues. Pick one - either one - and learn what you can about it, then proceed.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  8. #8
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    I've done some dozens of boats with glass sheathing, including canoes and kayaks.

    I have always simply saturated dry cloth on dry wood. Except in the cases I have saturated the cloth, then applied it from a mandrel, like on a vertical surface, but even then I never pre gave the wood a pre coat, of ypumwill.

    Now, I do use neat epoxy before fillets, but you can't tell,p if a fillet is being starved of epoxy, or isn't stuck well. With glass, you can tell if the cloth is saturated and stuck down, and the epoxy will soak right through the cloth and into the wood quite easily in my experience.

    Peace,
    Robert

  9. #9
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    It's handy to roll on unthickened epoxy and then place the glass before the epoxy fully goes off. This will not fully wet out, which is helpful as you handle the glass cloth. Gives you a chance to smooth the glass and work out the bubbles. There are, by the way, several ways to work out bubbles and I think some who do a lot t glassing than I have better ways than what I've done, so I'll leave that aside.

    Most small boat hull glassing takes some advantage of gravity. If you're on the outside of the hull, have the boat upsidedown and try to somewhat balance the glass so it does not slip off. While you should not roll on more epoxy than you can cover with glass fairly soon, as you get away from the horizontal it does help if the epoxy has just barely begun to kick as that helps keep the epoxy in place.

    A fiberglass (pre-epoxy) tale. The pic, sorry I could not rotate it, is of the apparatus Dad made for his PhD "Movement Thresholds in Periferal Vision". To make the thing, he blew up a weather balloon in the basement and glassed it.



    The first version was fully glassing the balloon on the theory that he'd then have two hemispheres. For the rest of his life he has no idea why. Anyway, he got it done and saw one place where the glass bulged a tad. So he patted it flat. Which punctured the balloon. And there we had a couple hundred pounds of rapidly setting glass in a heap in the basement . . .

    I remind friends that I come by my grander glass disasters genetically.
    I think I use this same machine when I get my eyes check, but on a smaller scale. Wow, now I know who invented it. Many thanks.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    Having built strippers and other boats using both methods, I almost always do mine on bare wood in one shot. Precoating with resin will tend to raise the grain a bit and all those little stickers make it more difficult to slide the fabric into position when you are smoothing it out. The cloth gets moved around a bit as you work, approaching dry sections for the first time, smoothing and saturating them, so it is not just a case of initially draping it and leaving it in that exact position for the duration. I find that I personally get better results without the pre-coat because the cloth moves and adjusts more freely. I also cut off the woven selvedge edges of my cloth, because it allows it to move and drape better on a curved shape like a canoe.

    It's handy to roll on unthickened epoxy and then place the glass before the epoxy fully goes off.
    I would never do this on a stripper. One thing you absolutely must avoid if you pre-coat on a stripper is laying cloth into a nearly hardened, but still sticky layer of resin. There is a very good chance that little bits of this resin will transfer to the cloth and harden before you can get to that portion with your main resin saturation coat. You will then have semi-resin-starved, white-ish patches on your cloth which will not saturate properly, may not lay down properly and will never go transparent properly. You will be screwed as these aren't fixable without cutting them out and patching those spots. Laying cloth into a partially cured layer of resin can be handy on small repairs (especially vertical surfaces) because it keeps the cloth from moving around or falling off while you saturate it - but an entire canoe hull is too big for this technique to work dependably. If you do precoat before glassing, you want to wait long enough that the precoat has hardened enough to not transfer to your fingers or the cloth as you lay it on the hull.

    The elusive and mysterious "chemical bond", by the way, can still take place up to about a week later with most boat epoxy resins. There is never any reason to rush your efforts for fear of losing the chemical bond. You won't. That's just uninformed internet BS. Even with no chemical bond at all, and older, fully cured epoxy, the adhesive strength is still very high and delamination, even on impact, for strippers is very rare these days. On big boats, certain parts may be glassed or epoxy coated months in advance of their installation, and they still bond just fine when finally installed.

    Depending on your exact resin, you do want to understand the amine blush concept and act accordingly if needed. It's another thing which is really no big deal to work around, and which tends to get blown way out of proportion in discussions - mostly by folks who actually have little or no experience with it. Sometimes due to your schedule or boat complexity you simply can't do the whole thing in one step, so you may or may not get much chemical bonding on some parts and you will need to deal with blush removal. Nothing to really get alarmed at.



    As always, my best advice for glassing boats is to get someone else that you can trust to mix you a continuous stream of properly measured and mixed small batches of resin. That way you don't have it hardening in the pan and you are less likely to screw up a batch because you are rushing to get more mixed. You can concentrate on the application, not the mixing.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    + 1 on the mixing assistant.

    + 1,897,632,809 on the "some else that you can trust", with special emphasis on trust. My buddy had an assistant mix a whole canoe inside worth of reversed ratio resin. It won't harden that way, and he cussed and spit quite a bit getting that mess cleaned out. I mostly laughed because I was too crippled up at the time to do much but stand in the corner and laugh. (Too much sitting was, and remains, painful for me)

    Peace,
    Robert

  12. #12
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    Thanks everyone for your comments. I guess its about evenly split, but not really significant either way. So, since its my first build, I wont put on a "primer" coat, just go straight at it.
    Thanks again.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    Well. ov10fac, congratulations on your build and welcome to the WBF [({best to stay out of the Bilge!})].
    One assumes that you will build the hull upside/down and are talking about "glassing" that outside surface.
    So, the easiest is to lay the fabric on the bare-faired- sanded- cleaned bottom in one piece and "dry" fit everything.
    Then, I like to lay one half back (say forward over aft) on the other- mix and roll on an even-ample-but not runny -layer of epoxy and walk the folded fabric back into place.
    Smoothing while the goo is pliable.
    Next, fold the other (aft) half over the glued (forward) half and repeat. Again, done while epoxy is still pliable.
    Finally, mix more epoxy and fill the weave.
    Generally, with slow hardener and a manageable size boat and mixing assistant as mentioned, there is no (little) panic.
    My 2 cents.
    Keep us posted and pictures are most welcome (read MANDATORY )

  14. #14
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    Quote Originally Posted by jackster View Post
    Well. ov10fac, congratulations on your build and welcome to the WBF [({best to stay out of the Bilge!})].
    One assumes that you will build the hull upside/down and are talking about "glassing" that outside surface.
    So, the easiest is to lay the fabric on the bare-faired- sanded- cleaned bottom in one piece and "dry" fit everything.
    Then, I like to lay one half back (say forward over aft) on the other- mix and roll on an even-ample-but not runny -layer of epoxy and walk the folded fabric back into place.
    Smoothing while the goo is pliable.
    Next, fold the other (aft) half over the glued (forward) half and repeat. Again, done while epoxy is still pliable.
    Finally, mix more epoxy and fill the weave.
    Generally, with slow hardener and a manageable size boat and mixing assistant as mentioned, there is no (little) panic.
    My 2 cents.
    Keep us posted and pictures are most welcome (read MANDATORY )
    Jackster,
    Thanks. Pictures for sure. I spent the last month building the forms and strong back. Just finished mounting the forms today. I'll take some pics and post them. Next is to build the stems. I am considering mahogany. I salvaged an old table top from a turn of the century (the last one not 2000) and am considering doing a laminate for the stems. I will be cutting later this week. If all goes well, I'll laminate the stems and get ready to strip.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    Ok, here are some photos of where I am. My next step is to form the stems. Still considering how to do that. I don't have a steamer but may have to construct on. So I am considering the bathtube approach or simple laminate. I have plenty of oak to use, so I am thinking oak stems and gunnels.

    Anyway, here are some photos of where I am. Kinda like Jethro in NCIS, I'm building in my shop which is in thebasement of my wife's art studio.


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bzm...ew?usp=sharing

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bzm...ew?usp=sharing

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bzm...ew?usp=sharing

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bzm...ew?usp=sharing
    Last edited by ov10fac; 07-26-2017 at 10:37 PM.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    Cant see ur photos,
    Stems on strip canoes are more decorative then structural. We set them in after glassing the inner.
    hull
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  17. #17
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Cant see ur photos,
    Stems on strip canoes are more decorative then structural. We set them in after glassing the inner.
    hull
    Hmm, photos should be viewable. They are posted to my Google Drive and shared with the url inserted into the post. What happens when you click on the highlighted text? Had to do that because of the size of the photos.

    The videos I have watched, and the books I have read use two stems, an inner and an outer. My understanding is that there are other ways to build the canoe without inner stems, but this looks like a nice way to do things and give me a chance to do some wood bending.

    Thanks.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    Something permission to access.
    Glassing the inside of a canoe is a difficult miserable job, this is we're having a tacky first coat comes in real Handy to hold the cloth in place. the stem not being covered with glass and makes for a nicer job in my opinion
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  19. #19
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    As long as you lay it in there very carefully, because it is going to be a real bitch to move it around if you have spots where it is pulling away. In "normal" (dry) application, any spots which want to pull away from the hull's sides are dealt with by "sweeping" cloth down and deeper into the boat, relaxing the tension on it so that it will lie down neatly. If it is already stuck in a tacky layer of resin, that is going to be much more difficult. I'd much rather start dry, working out from the middle in both directions as I squeegee resin into the cloth.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    Quote Originally Posted by ov10fac View Post
    Hmm, photos should be viewable. They are posted to my Google Drive and shared with the url inserted into the post. What happens when you click on the highlighted text? Had to do that because of the size of the photos.

    The videos I have watched, and the books I have read use two stems, an inner and an outer. My understanding is that there are other ways to build the canoe without inner stems, but this looks like a nice way to do things and give me a chance to do some wood bending.

    Thanks.
    Let me check on the permission problem.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    OK, it seems I can't share it publically from Google Drive. At least I can't find any way to do it right now. So, the next obvious question is how to post pictures to the forum? OK, fixed it, photos should be visible now.
    Last edited by ov10fac; 07-26-2017 at 10:37 PM.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    for best results - use a non blushing epoxy and one that contains bubble breakers for a more flawless finish

  23. #23
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    Quote Originally Posted by paul oman View Post
    for best results - use a non blushing epoxy and one that contains bubble breakers for a more flawless finish
    Do you have a source for this kind of epoxy? Thanks.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    West 105 resin & 207 hardener is the ONLY epoxy I'd ever use for clear coating a boat. People grab on the blushing thing like it's a major problem and it's not. The right way is to not let the build up coats of epoxy harden like which is done with paint, epoxy is not paint. IF blush appears when all the build up is complete it washes off easily before sanding & varnish
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  25. #25
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    West 105 resin & 207 hardener is the ONLY epoxy I'd ever use for clear coating a boat. People grab on the blushing thing like it's a major problem and it's not. The right way is to not let the build up coats of epoxy harden like which is done with paint, epoxy is not paint. IF blush appears when all the build up is complete it washes off easily before sanding & varnish
    Denise,

    I have read the same thing. Many thanks.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    I can see your photos now because you fixed whatever it was!
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  27. #27
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    I can see your photos now because you fixed whatever it was!
    I had to change the repository to another account. Not sure why, but .... Glad you can see them now.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    my canoe craft prospector gave to my daughter and it's now wasting away in here yard on signal mtn TN

    my very first strip build! about 20 years ago.. I traded it for the Ducker I'm going to restore who came out ahead? me LOL
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  29. #29
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    Plus one on the 105/207 for clear finishes these days. Excellent stuff! Before that was invented I used the normal WEST 105/205. Never really needed slow hardener. I still use 205 on stuff that will get painted. Before that, I used Techniglass 329-2 laminating polyester, and before that, we just carved canoes out of logs........



    F.O.B (fear of blush) is mainly BS.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    I went the other way Todd. LOL stopping using epoxy (except for repairs ans such) and went for traditional builds and building. Sadly never was able to realize getting the larger boats when my Son lost interest.

    OV10 everyone here has seen my photos dozens of times. I was on photobucket.. now i'm on shutterfly
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  31. #31
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    Quote Originally Posted by ov10fac View Post
    I am in the process of building my first cedar strip canoe. I have read several books about building strip boats, canoes, and kayaks. All seem to have different approaches when it comes to laying on the fiberglass and epoxy. The question I have is, what seems to be the consensus, put on a layer of epoxy before the fiberglass, or fiberglass and epoxy at the same time.

    What procedure do most use to epoxy and fiberglass the boat.

    Thanks.
    When I started building strippers 30 years ago all builders used the one step, bare wood, dry cloth wet out method.

    I noticed a "silver fleck" look to some areas of my glassed boats in the sunlight and areas with a second layer of glass over canoe stems and kayak hull/deck joints had a cloudy appearance. When I started building professionally, I found these issues unacceptable.

    When I thought about the one step wet-out method I realized the bare wood and dry fiberglass cloth were both trying to absorb resin pulling in different directions. And I knew wood could keep absorbing resin longer and unevenly, more than fiberglass cloth.

    So, I'm the guy who started using a "seal coat" of epoxy on the bare wood, so when I wet-out my fiberglass cloth there would not be a struggle for resin. I was using and still use System Three epoxy which has a 72 hour green stage, allowing a chemical bond even though it's tack free. If I had been using a different resin I may not have thought about a seal coat, but there it is. What few builders know is all epoxy resin systems are different. MAS epoxies cure in half the time of System Three but have a very short green stage.

    I apply two and even three layer of fiberglass cloth in some areas of my boats with total transparency using the methods I describe on my "Shop Tips" page @ http://www.laughingloon.com/epoxy.html

    I work professionally so nothing but the highest quality will do. If you want to have your fiberglass be totally transparent then you may wish to follow my suggestions.

    Most home builders will be happy with the one step wet-out method.

    All the best,
    Rob Macks
    Laughing Loon Custom Canoes & Kayaks
    http://www.laughingloon.com/
    207-549-3531


    I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.
    Confucius

  32. #32
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    my canoe craft prospector gave to my daughter and it's now wasting away in here yard on signal mtn TN

    my very first strip build! about 20 years ago.. I traded it for the Ducker I'm going to restore who came out ahead? me LOL
    Beautiful boat. Too bad its not being used. Would make a great fishing canoe.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    I'm sure you have all seen this youtube video, but if you haven't, as I hadn't, it will show the strength of a cedar strip canoe. And I was concerned it would not stand up!!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nagWw0us1H0

  34. #34
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    We ran rivers in my prospector, split her open on pine creek in central Pennsylvania going through a class 4. they are strong but the scrapes n scratches make ya crazy, and a better paddler because varnishing everytime you use the boat gets old lol
    Last edited by DeniseO30; 07-28-2017 at 01:21 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  35. #35
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    Default Re: When to Epoxy

    This is an old comparison test of Raka, MAS, West, East and System 3. There is a good explanation of blush.
    http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Epoxresl.htm



    Links to some suppliers:
    http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Resource.htm
    Some others not listed by one ocean kayaks
    http://www.duckworksbbs.com/supplies.htm
    http://www.epoxyusa.com/category_s/3.htm
    http://www.ecopoxy.com/marine-construction-composites/
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