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Thread: Double planking

  1. #1
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    Default Double planking

    I read in some old motorboating and rudder articles on boatbuilding, there is a mention of a double planking system with 2 layers of cedar, I assume fasten with fastener like carvel boats before the days of epoxy, unlike strip planking we have today. It is said it'll create a lighter hull this way and chalking is not needed, has anyone seen a boat build this way?
    While it is more common to cold mold or build a fiberglass hull over old carvel hulls, can we use this technique to sand off some plank thickness and fasten new layer of planks to create a double planked hull?

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    Default Re: Double planking

    I think that the garboards and shear were full thickness, but with a rebate for the outer skin. I also think that something like oiled calico will have been used as with double diagonal building.
    http://www.cannellclassicboats.com/cbb_projects.html

    Wrong about the garboards, the entire bottom was full thickness.
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 07-17-2017 at 07:26 AM.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    'sand off some plank thickness and fasten new layer of planks '

    Cant imagine sanding off so much wood all over the hull to do that. And how can it be done evenly everywhere?
    Maybe sanding-grinding hard all over, then glue on a thin diagonal layer of not too wide planking run at an angle to the original planks. How thick to make the outer plank layer?
    And won't this make frame repairs much harder?

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    Default Re: Double planking

    ^ If the shape is right at the keel and sternpost it would be easier to router out a new rebate and do no more than clean up the planking.
    What you describe was done with Curlew. http://nmmc.co.uk/object/boats/falmo...y-punt-curlew/
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Quote Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
    'sand off some plank thickness and fasten new layer of planks '

    Cant imagine sanding off so much wood all over the hull to do that. And how can it be done evenly everywhere?
    Maybe sanding-grinding hard all over, then glue on a thin diagonal layer of not too wide planking run at an angle to the original planks. How thick to make the outer plank layer?
    And won't this make frame repairs much harder?
    I know there are people who sand and cold mold over like Reuel Parker done here:
    http://www.parker-marine.com/Constru...geImagine.html
    But the problem is once cold molded or fiberglass over, repairs would seemed impossible, but with planking repair is much harder but at lease possible.

    I agree that the planks is probably much thicker than the cold molded wood though and sanding so much might to be practical.
    Just thinking if it is a viable way to rebuild for easier maintenance.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    ^ If the shape is right at the keel and sternpost it would be easier to router out a new rebate and do no more than clean up the planking.
    What you describe was done with Curlew. http://nmmc.co.uk/object/boats/falmo...y-punt-curlew/
    "Carvel planked with a retrofit triple diagonal kauri pine sheathing" isn't this essentially cold molded over like the link I posted?
    I am thinking of an extra planking overlap over the seams with fasteners, which I believe is done back in the days.
    (Though I have never seen a boat build this way)

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    Default Re: Double planking

    I sealed my carvel planked hull, pretty much watertight all over. No extra layers of wood, just glued planks to planks with PL Premium construction adhesive thickened with small amount of sawdust. Then overcoated with Sanitred Permaflex and or Loctite PL black roof flashing polyurethane. I am in favor of the Loctite polyurethane mixed with 1/32" milled fibers, it is the best choice I found so far.
    Here you can see I coated the keel. Yellow is the Sanitred Permaflex, black is the Loctite.

    I have had zero failures, understand I did rebuild all the framing, I had all bottom planks off before screwing back on coated and sealed planks all 4 sides. all those planks were very dry before all the coatings went on.

    This picture, the permaflex had been on hull since 2006, and I hauled in 2014, you can see it stuck on very well. It did not stick to the keel well, it was on it like a glove, so it did not come off. But I tore it off and recoated with the black Pl.
    I used the milled fibers on the forward part of the hull going back 10 foot, it made that Black PL really tough and really strong. My thinking was what if I hit something, so decided to add milled fibers as a type of reinforcement. The black PL is pretty tough stuff anyway.

    When my boat goes in after a haul, no worries about sea worms, or leaking or soaking to swell up.


    I sriped to bare wood, the coated with Loctite and milled fibers going back 10 feet. the planks were glued with Loctite PL premium construction adhesive mixed with same sawdust.


    Here is where I stopped.

    Here is the products used. I mixed then used a 6 inch blade to frost the planks, about 1/8 inch thickness.
    Last edited by sdowney717; 07-17-2017 at 09:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Very interesting!
    I wondered if future repairs and removal of the planks are possible after you applied the mixture?

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Quote Originally Posted by Wckoek View Post
    Very interesting!
    I wondered if future repairs and removal of the planks are possible after you applied the mixture?
    Absolutely! You would take a circular saw, and cut down the seams. Then grind off where the screw holes are, use a grinder or belt sander..
    To mark screws holes, I was thinking, from inside drill a tiny hole next to the frame edge, at least it will give you an indication of where the screws will be found.

    Using PL premium polyurethane construction adhesive mixed with about 30% sawdust as a mixture, simple trowel back, force it into the seams, the stuff swells up and glues everything again like a solid single unit. Then sand flat, or you can do this, use a piece of cereal bag plastic, press against the surface , and it will keep it flatter to the hull wood.

    What I used was this.
    http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/pl_...n-Adhesive.htm

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Quote Originally Posted by Wckoek View Post
    I know there are people who sand and cold mold over like Reuel Parker done here:
    http://www.parker-marine.com/Constru...geImagine.html
    But the problem is once cold molded or fiberglass over, repairs would seemed impossible, but with planking repair is much harder but at lease possible.

    I agree that the planks is probably much thicker than the cold molded wood though and sanding so much might to be practical.
    Just thinking if it is a viable way to rebuild for easier maintenance.
    In stead of sanding use a router set to the depth that you want to remove and create grooves and ridges. Then use a power plane to take off the ridges. That way you control how much you take off.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Here is the hull fresh coated back in 2006 with Permaflex, believe me it does not stay so clean looking , looks nice though. I really despise painting it on the outside of a hull as it drips and runs before finally sludging up thicker.
    I wont be doing that ever again.
    I put a piece of 'liquid tight non metallic' conduit to line the shaft log hole. First had to cut with a big hole saw to fit that in there.
    Glued conduit in with black loctite PL and some gray sikaflex self leveling concrete polyurethane on the inside to aid sealing everything.

    https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...Wnpvihp9yU8gSK

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Repairing framing 2005, you can see what I had was a lot of framing issues. So many cracked and rotten frames was a real mess. I never would have built a boat this way.
    All my frames I simply used treated SYP, free of knots, ans I sectioned in various long pieces screwing into the oak floors.
    The curved chine area, I simply screwed and glued in gussets, it has not opened up one bit in the years since. Doing it my way, you don't need huge long contiguous frames. The hull planks being glued together.

    https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...lre3XaFFl0L0Um
    My repairs though have proven very strong.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Thanks, that would be an economical and practical solution, even easier than cold molded over and repairable.
    It was always the leaking, moisture and maintenance difficulties that kill off many old boats.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Quote Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
    Here is the hull fresh coated back in 2006 with Permaflex, believe me it does not stay so clean looking , looks nice though. I really despise painting it on the outside of a hull as it drips and runs before finally sludging up thicker.
    I wont be doing that ever again.
    I put a piece of 'liquid tight non metallic' conduit to line the shaft log hole. First had to cut with a big hole saw to fit that in there.
    Glued conduit in with black loctite PL and some gray sikaflex self leveling concrete polyurethane on the inside to aid sealing everything.

    https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...Wnpvihp9yU8gSK
    Both album links doesn't work, so are you suggesting that using loctite PL is much easier than Permaflex?

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Here was my haulout out in 2014, shows a lot of work I did, lots of hull pictures. Everything i did has been a success, including the stern post reinforcement I did..
    https://goo.gl/photos/Y876jwe1jceTp9Zz6

    All the growth stuck real well to permaflex.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Quote Originally Posted by Wckoek View Post
    Both album links doesn't work, so are you suggesting that using loctite PL is much easier than Permaflex?
    Definitely easier to use, may be cheaper too. I would use the Black PL method over anything else I have used, for the exterior of the hull as in a coating on top the planking.
    It was seriously, very easy to frost on a layer of black pl and also make it smooth.
    Does this link work?
    shaft log sealing
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/glCvzmlgBonUAxkw2

    framing in 2005
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/L02XBcjyYBOJcx9h1

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Quote Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
    Definitely easier to use, may be cheaper too. I would use the Black PL method over anything else I have used, for the exterior of the hull as in a coating on top the planking.
    It was seriously, very easy to frost on a layer of black pl and also make it smooth.
    Does this link work?
    shaft log sealing
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/glCvzmlgBonUAxkw2

    framing in 2005
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/L02XBcjyYBOJcx9h1
    Yes, these links work now, on the motor boat you did on the 2014 haul out, the black PL seemed to be much thinner, was it because you didn't use milled fiber on that one? Maybe it wasn't a necessity in all boats.
    But I think it might be possible to mix copper powder with the black PL coating adding anti fouling properties, I know some people do this with epoxy.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Quote Originally Posted by Wckoek View Post
    Yes, these links work now, on the motor boat you did on the 2014 haul out, the black PL seemed to be much thinner, was it because you didn't use milled fiber on that one? Maybe it wasn't a necessity in all boats.
    But I think it might be possible to mix copper powder with the black PL coating adding anti fouling properties, I know some people do this with epoxy.
    I only put the milled fibers on the forward 10 foot of the boat. It does make it a little thicker. Mix it in at 30% fibers to 70% black PL.
    I ran out of milled fibers. It does not add much cost to the project, more milled fibers equals less black PL used.
    All the rest where you see black is just black PL.
    I really like how the milled fibers worked with black PL. I sanded some of the bow area smooth, even used a rotary steel brush in the drill. You could see the fiberglass in the mixture. It strengthens the mix using the fibers. I would recommend using the mix all over the boat with the fibers, but for me was not absolutely necessary.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Self answer, I found out that copper powder that is not exposed is not much effective as anti fouling, and paint might be more practical.
    Sdowney717, thanks for the info, it just give me ideas and hope to tackle a boat I had not dare to restore.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    I had a gouging steel nut working on my black PL'd hull side. It tore thru the paint, but did not even score the black PL.

    https://goo.gl/photos/3YHHiPVPPu8vX5kn7

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Quote Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
    I had a gouging steel nut working on my black PL'd hull side. It tore thru the paint, but did not even score the black PL.

    https://goo.gl/photos/3YHHiPVPPu8vX5kn7
    I think with thinner layer without the fibers, it look more attractive with the seam lines visible in a way, and would probably make future sanding/repairs easier.
    Epoxy is a nice thing, but we don't have to use it on everything.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Quote Originally Posted by Wckoek View Post
    I think with thinner layer without the fibers, it look more attractive with the seam lines visible in a way, and would probably make future sanding/repairs easier.
    Epoxy is a nice thing, but we don't have to use it on everything.
    Yes, for the hull side, I decided to seal that wood in the back aft under a thin layer of black PL.
    Just as a waterproof barrier. The toe rail used to extend all the way to the transom. A lot of deck water washes over the hull side back there when it rains.
    he black PL can be rotary disc sanded but it is not easy, generates a lot of friction heat. If you can wet sand it works better. If it forms little rubber balls stuck to the surface, wet a cotton bath towel and they will scrub right off.
    What I ended up doing was a small amount of sanding the black PL on the hull side just to knock off the mountains, then went back and filled with an acrylic white caulk, the Dynaflex 230. That easily wet sands or dry sands smoothly.
    Took paint extremely well. All my topside plank seams, I dug out the old cracked seam putty, repaired any ruined edges with epoxy and sawdust. Then I filled the seams with Dynaflex 230 caulk, smoothed the seam with my finger. It dries into a hard like waterproof rubber. No more leaking, daylight showing or old cracked paint and putty letting in rain to rot the plank edges.

    A lot of stuff I do is I like to try different things just to see what happens.
    Last edited by sdowney717; 07-17-2017 at 11:24 AM.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Originaly double planking was made with the inner course screwed to the frames and the outer one fastened from the inside, between the frame bays. The two courses where also glued together with heavy shellack. For the rebuilding building of the Herreshoff steam launch "Vapor" we used no planking fastenings, other than, the West System G/flex that was used as an adhesive. The inner and outer courses were hung with overlapping seams which eliminates the need for caulking. The G/flex epoxy glue allowed us to eliminate all forms of metal fastenings for attaching the planking. Should you wish to apply a second skin to your boat, Nick's suggested method of using a router and planes to reduce the plank thickness would be my own choice. Here, you can glue and fasten between the frame bays just as it was once done by Herreshoff and other builders.
    Jay

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Quote Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
    Yes, for the hull side, I decided to seal that wood in the back aft under a thin layer of black PL.
    Just as a waterproof barrier. The toe rail used to extend all the way to the transom. A lot of deck water washes over the hull side back there when it rains.
    he black PL can be rotary disc sanded but it is not easy, generates a lot of friction heat. If you can wet sand it works better. If it forms little rubber balls stuck to the surface, wet a cotton bath towel and they will scrub right off.
    What I ended up doing was a small amount of sanding the black PL on the hull side just to knock off the mountains, then went back and filled with an acrylic white caulk, the Dynaflex 230. That easily wet sands or dry sands smoothly.
    Took paint extremely well. All my topside plank seams, I dug out the old cracked seam putty, repaired any ruined edges with epoxy and sawdust. Then I filled the seams with Dynaflex 230 caulk, smoothed the seam with my finger. It dries into a hard like waterproof rubber. No more leaking, daylight showing or old cracked paint and putty letting in rain to rot the plank edges.

    A lot of stuff I do is I like to try different things just to see what happens.
    I have no experience with Dynaflex 230, but just read that it is waterproof and can endure expansion and contraction, can it be used in placed or work better between the planks than the adhesive sawdust method you mentioned?

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Quote Originally Posted by Wckoek View Post
    I have no experience with Dynaflex 230, but just read that it is waterproof and can endure expansion and contraction, can it be used in placed or work better between the planks than the adhesive sawdust method you mentioned?
    Not below the water, it is only for above the waterline. Works fine there. It takes a good 2 weeks to fully cure, and then it is a hard rubbery substance. It will not get hard enough to crack. It does offer some glue like quality. It must be painted or it grows black mold. You can get it in many colors, white, black, tan, grey. I recently used some black to seal new Perko fuel fills to the plywood deck. Easy cleanup with water before it sets. It will shrink some when put into seams, worked fine as I want to see the planks seams on the topside. I have put this on screws and into wood holes to seal out water as in deck railings.
    Last edited by sdowney717; 07-17-2017 at 11:43 AM.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Originaly double planking was made with the inner course screwed to the frames and the outer one fastened from the inside, between the frame bays. The two courses where also glued together with heavy shellack. For the rebuilding building of the Herreshoff steam launch "Vapor" we used no planking fastenings, other than, the West System G/flex that was used as an adhesive. The inner and outer courses were hung with overlapping seams which eliminates the need for caulking. The G/flex epoxy glue allowed us to eliminate all forms of metal fastenings for attaching the planking. Should you wish to apply a second skin to your boat, Nick's suggested method of using a router and planes to reduce the plank thickness would be my own choice. Here, you can glue and fasten between the frame bays just as it was once done by Herreshoff and other builders.
    Jay
    Thanks, using epoxy instead of fastenings have its benefits, the problem is it would be much difficult to repair and reversible, though in many case it was the fastener that fails before the epoxy.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    No fastenings here. Varnished hull with no bungs was the result.
    Jay

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Quote Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
    Not below the water, it is only for above the waterline. Works fine there. It takes a good 2 weeks to fully cure, and then it is a hard rubbery substance. It will not get hard enough to crack. It does offer some glue like quality. It must be painted or it grows black mold. You can get it in many colors, white, black, tan, grey. I recently used some black to seal new Perko fuel fills to the plywood deck. Easy cleanup with water before it sets. It will shrink some when put into seams, worked fine as I want to see the planks seams on the topside. I have put this on screws and into wood holes to seal out water as in deck railings.
    I see, for a sailboat that heels, probably the sawdust mixture throughout the hull is a better solution.
    But I can see the Dynaflex can work with teak deck planks.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    No fastenings here. Varnished hull with no bungs was the result.
    Jay
    It look really nice, and make sense for a new build, it would probably faster and easier than cold molded and strip planking.
    But for restoration epoxied over and one day you want to replace the planks which all carvel boats will eventually do, I don't know how it can be removed.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Quote Originally Posted by Wckoek View Post
    I see, for a sailboat that heels, probably the sawdust mixture throughout the hull is a better solution.
    But I can see the Dynaflex can work with teak deck planks.
    Oh it would be just fine for a heeled over sailboat to use the Dynaflex 230. The warning is for continuous uninterrupted underwater usage. It will get painted, not left bare.
    I have some bare on a few spots where I need to add paint. It never has been a problem with rain or water splashing on it.
    It is waterproof, just not continuous underwater use. Continuous immersion is going to soften the caulk eventually.

    Yes, I have thought Black Dynaflex would be great for seaming teak planking. It is hard, yet yields, wont crack and is easy to sand smooth. To get it level will take a few applications because it will shrink. Use the tan color would be interesting on a teak deck. Black is traditional because all they had was black in the past.
    Last edited by sdowney717; 07-17-2017 at 01:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Quote Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
    Oh it would be just fine for a heeled over sailboat to use the Dynaflex 230. The warning is for continuous uninterrupted underwater usage. It will get painted, not left bare.
    I have some bare on a few spots where I need to add paint. It never has been a problem with rain or water splashing on it.
    It is waterproof, just not continuous underwater use. Continuous immersion is going to soften the caulk eventually.

    Yes, I have thought Black Dynaflex would be great for seaming teak planking. It is hard, yet yields, wont crack and is easy to sand smooth. To get it level will take a few applications because it will shrink. Use the tan color would be interesting on a teak deck. Black is traditional because all they had was black in the past.
    I've read your post on sealing with black PL, I also found that there are liquid rubber spray that are used for membrane and roofing, they can be applied in thin and thick layers and are elastic, they can even stick to metal, so I think wood wouldn't be a problem.
    It would be better than tarring, as a water repellent and barrier to worms, and easier to apply than small tubes of PL.
    I don't know if it was sandable and as reversible as the PL you used though.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Quote Originally Posted by Wckoek View Post
    I've read your post on sealing with black PL, I also found that there are liquid rubber spray that are used for membrane and roofing, they can be applied in thin and thick layers and are elastic, they can even stick to metal, so I think wood wouldn't be a problem.
    It would be better than tarring, as a water repellent and barrier to worms, and easier to apply than small tubes of PL.
    I don't know if it was sandable and as reversible as the PL you used though.
    There is no telling that tale.
    I have thought the spray on polyureas might be good, but then have read they may come loose from wood.
    One reason is the absolute stiffness of what your placing on top wood. the black PL is soft enough to yield to wood moving, so it is under less tension to break itself free of wood. And wood is going to move, expand, contract.
    Loctite black PL is a little softer rubber than 3M 5200.

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    Default Re: Double planking

    I am always thankful of those who pioneer new methods of working with wooden boats in stead of choosing to work with proven ways of doing, possibly, expensive repairs.
    They blaze a new trail for us old traditionalists! My hat is off to you. I look forward to how it has worked over the long run!
    Jay

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    Default Re: Double planking

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    I am always thankful of those who pioneer new methods of working with wooden boats in stead of choosing to work with proven ways of doing, possibly, expensive repairs.
    They blaze a new trail for us old traditionalists! My hat is off to you. I look forward to how it has worked over the long run!
    Jay
    Learning from others mistakes? This thread sounds more like a TV infomercial for "Flex Seal," that black gutter sealer that they claim you can spray on a screen door and use it to replace the bottom of your boat than a discussion about anything remotely connected to wooden boat planking. "Liquid rubber in a can!" As said, though, "Hats off to you!"




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    Default Re: Double planking

    Polyureas are definitely difficult to tear tough flexible strong waterproof easy to spray coatings, of which I have no experience.
    but would like to have the fun of finding out!
    Something like this, take a wood hull, gut it, pressure spray it clean even gouge the wood badly score it up. Let it thoroughly dry out. You want rough surface to aid adhesion.
    Fix any loose or rotten boards, then coat with Polyurea inside and outside, would be an interesting test.
    My feeling would work out well. But you won't know unless you do it.
    <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S14awn-gOSk" target="_blank">

    Last edited by sdowney717; 07-17-2017 at 09:19 PM.

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