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Thread: Why would any American

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    How much would I be out of pocket for a glioblstoma crainotomy, hospitalisation, radiation then a year of chemo George ? Just a rough number?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Costs credibility.
    He doesn't have to worry about that.
    Tom

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Not my area, but - oodles. Bankruptingly expensive.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    The parking at the hospital cost me more than the anything else. I've been very fortunate.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Since this is going to be a 'how to pay for it" thread, let's ask the question. If the top 1% holds 90% of the wealth why should they not pay 90% of the taxes? If a man, as some do, makes a billion dollars a year, and pays $900,000,000 in taxes, he still keeps $100,000,000. Since only the upper income is taxes at 90%, he probably going to keep $200,000,000. I knew people in that top bracket back in the 50's. They had summer homes, large boats in the harbor and bought new cars every year or two.

    Let' look at what they keep rather than what is taken in taxes. My dad grossed something in $10,000 area. They were keeping hundreds of times what he grossed, and they were doing very, very well.

    Everyone here has, I believe, been on threads about the military buying very expensive tanks, planes, and other stuff no one wants. We could give Ford or others incentives by helping changing the factories involved to making cars, appliances, or something else, and let Ford or whomever pay the salaries of the same workers, and the money the government saves could go into healthcare.

    The bottom line, though, that saddens me, is that other countries have discovered the simple truth that it costs LESS to insure EVERYONE
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Since this is going to be a 'how to pay for it" thread, let's ask the question. If the top 1% holds 90% of the wealth why should they not pay 90% of the taxes? If a man, as some do, makes a billion dollars a year, and pays $900,000,000 in taxes, he still keeps $100,000,000. Since only the upper income is taxes at 90%, he probably going to keep $200,000,000. I knew people in that top bracket back in the 50's. They had summer homes, large boats in the harbor and bought new cars every year or two.

    Let' look at what they keep rather than what is taken in taxes. My dad grossed something in $10,000 area. They were keeping hundreds of times what he grossed, and they were doing very, very well.

    Everyone here has, I believe, been on threads about the military buying very expensive tanks, planes, and other stuff no one wants. We could give Ford or others incentives by helping changing the factories involved to making cars, appliances, or something else, and let Ford or whomever pay the salaries of the same workers, and the money the government saves could go into healthcare.

    The bottom line, though, that saddens me, is that other countries have discovered the simple truth that it costs LESS to insure EVERYONE
    I see you are coming around to my position: it is the amount one has after taxes that matters.

    You might notice that it was the Democrats who decided to not insurer all the poor under medicaid. Just to keep the 10 year budget deficit under $1 trillion.

    The tax problem is that those who are earning "only" $100K don't want taxes to change. They fear that will have to pay more. Almost no one wants to do that.
    Life is complex.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    How to pay for it? May I point out yet again that the US already pays twice as much as other developed countries for healthcare as a percentage of GDP, 2.5X the OEDC average in dollars per capita, and every one of those countries already covers everyone? Look guys, it can't be that hard if everybody else manages to do it.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    NopeNopeNopeNopeNope, Wilson. Not gonna give anyone 'my money, my precious'. Gotta be another way. How about youth in Asia?
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Why are our costs higher than other countries? Is it because we employ too many end of life procedures, while those other countries just put 'em on a waiting list.
    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    Why are our costs higher than other countries? Is it because we employ too many end of life procedures, while those other countries just put 'em on a waiting list.
    Or is it because we've made the whole thing into a for-profit industry, and the market is doing what markets do, maximizing profits at the expense of all else?

    Best,
    Chris
    "Where we would wish to reform we must not reproach." -Thomas Paine

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    How to pay for it? May I point out yet again that the US already pays twice as much as other developed countries for healthcare as a percentage of GDP, 2.5X the OEDC average in dollars per capita, and every one of those countries already covers everyone? Look guys, it can't be that hard if everybody else manages to do it.
    I am sure all those who work in healthcare will do their part and accept a 50% pay cut. I don't think you understand why we pay so much for healthcare.
    Life is complex.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    Why are our costs higher than other countries? Is it because we employ too many end of life procedures, while those other countries just put 'em on a waiting list.
    Nope, because you have insurance companies involved. Insurance company = a mechanism for taking money out of your pocket and transferring it to shareholders pockets.

    Your post is tasteless considering that my mother died of cancer on the liver in the care of our NHS hospital.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  13. #83
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    He said our health costs are higher. That would be different than insurance costs.
    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    He said our health costs are higher. That would be different than insurance costs.
    How do you pay for your health care if not through an insurance policy? Duh!
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  15. #85
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Nope, because you have insurance companies involved.
    The middle class seemed to want health insurance. Not healthcare. Health insurance. They were willing to have their employers pay for it.

    If insurance companies were as bad as you suggest, all insurance would be over priced. I don't see anyone making any claims like that.
    Life is complex.

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I am sure all those who work in healthcare will do their part and accept a 50% pay cut. I don't think you understand why we pay so much for healthcare.
    Nah.

    Those who work in health care will trundle along happily, without much change to their incomes at all.


    Those who work in the health INSURANCE industry will begin experiencing the desperate poverty they so richly deserve.
    Rattling the teacups.

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    How do you pay for your health care if not through an insurance policy? Duh!
    For anything minor I would my credit card. For anything major I would use my savings.

    In either case I would not ask you to pay for my care.
    Life is complex.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    The middle class seemed to want health insurance. Not healthcare. Health insurance. They were willing to have their employers pay for it.

    If insurance companies were as bad as you suggest, all insurance would be over priced. I don't see anyone making any claims like that.
    Stop taking money out of the system to pay profits to shareholders and the costs will come down and more money will be available to improve services. A no brainer, yes?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  19. #89
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    The middle class seemed to want health insurance. Not healthcare. Health insurance. They were willing to have their employers pay for it.

    If insurance companies were as bad as you suggest, all insurance would be over priced. I don't see anyone making any claims like that.
    No.

    No one is claiming that all insurance is overpriced, though there may be some merit to that position.

    What is being claimed is that the US Health Insurance Agency has become nothing more or less than a protection racket.

    The US Health insurance industry was left to its own devices for many decades, and it devolved into what can only be described as a flimflam game.

    Pay those usurious premiums for years, then get sick and see just how fast they deny coverage.

    Putrid, greedy, ghoulish, unsavory horror.
    Rattling the teacups.

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    How much would I be out of pocket for a glioblstoma crainotomy, hospitalisation, radiation then a year of chemo George ? Just a rough number?
    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Not my area, but - oodles. Bankruptingly expensive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    For anything minor I would my credit card. For anything major I would use my savings.

    In either case I would not ask you to pay for my care.
    Are you really that stinking rich?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  21. #91
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I see you are coming around to my position: it is the amount one has after taxes that matters.

    You might notice that it was the Democrats who decided to not insurer all the poor under medicaid. Just to keep the 10 year budget deficit under $1 trillion.

    The tax problem is that those who are earning "only" $100K don't want taxes to change. They fear that will have to pay more. Almost no one wants to do that.
    All of this ignores the fact that it costs LESS to insure everyone that not to insure everyone if we treat the uninsured.
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I am sure all those who work in healthcare will do their part and accept a 50% pay cut. I don't think you understand why we pay so much for healthcare.
    I don't think that's needed.
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

  23. #93
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I am sure all those who work in healthcare will do their part and accept a 50% pay cut. I don't think you understand why we pay so much for healthcare.
    Well, it is bleedingly obvious that YOU do not understand.


    A quick google of the phrase "percentage of healthcare dollar that actually goes to healthcare" reveals that 30% goes somewhere else.


    It reveals also that 4% represents the COST of the healthcare insurer.

    That means that a whopping 26% of every healthcare dollar goes directly into the pockets of people who will try every trick in the book to simply steal your money, and leave you to die without coverage.
    Rattling the teacups.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    How much would I be out of pocket for a glioblstoma crainotomy, hospitalisation, radiation then a year of chemo George ? Just a rough number?
    Oh, I could see that being half a mill, easily. At LEAST 250,000. Depends on the chemo, I imagine. The surgery alone would be bankrupting to almost anyone, without insurance. Even some people with.

    Open heart surgery bankrupted my mom. Yes, she has "good" insurance.

    A major back injury wiped me out, though I never declared bankruptcy. I just lost it all, like a jerk, and started over.
    Deep in my 30s...
    Yes, I had insurance.

    Peace,
    Robert

  25. #95
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Are you really that stinking rich?
    One does not need to be stinking rich. 85% of people don't ever have high healthcare costs. One does not need to be stinking rich. But I am smart (or not). I used to have a high deductible plan. Great government subsidy for the middle class. It appears my health insurance costs have been more than my healthcare costs - even without considering the time value of money. I would have been better off without insurance.

    There are a lot of people who have large healthcare costs who can afford to pay their healthcare, but they want others to pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    That means that a whopping 26% of every healthcare dollar goes directly into the pockets of people who will try every trick in the book to simply steal your money, and leave you to die without coverage.
    I would suggest you purchase health insurance stock. You should get a good return on your investment. In fact, that sector has been a great investment since the ACA started. (I don't do setor investing. I just invest in the broad market.)

    If you are correct and I have no reason to doubt your figures, that makes healthcare still 50% higher than some claim. Now healthcare employees only need to take a 33% pay cut. I like my position because even a 33% pay cut is as unreasonable to expect as a 50% pay cut. But so many people claim we can do it.

    But I think you have it wrong. Healthcare insurers usually negotiate discounts for services. So those with insurance (or those willing to ask) pay much less than market prices. Others have used that fact to claim that service providers are charging too much. Others also have made claims of the large number of people doing bookkeeping for doctors as being responsible for high costs.

    So many aspects to consider.
    Life is complex.

  26. #96
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    One does not need to be stinking rich. 85% of people don't ever have high healthcare costs. One does not need to be stinking rich. But I am smart (or not). I used to have a high deductible plan. Great government subsidy for the middle class. It appears my health insurance costs have been more than my healthcare costs - even without considering the time value of money. I would have been better off without insurance.

    There are a lot of people who have large healthcare costs who can afford to pay their healthcare, but they want others to pay.
    Did you read Georges answer to Peters question, did you read Roberts post. Can you comprehend what those words mean?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  27. #97
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Oh, I could see that being half a mill, easily. At LEAST 250,000. Depends on the chemo, I imagine. The surgery alone would be bankrupting to almost anyone, without insurance.
    The odds of having an expense that large are insignificant. Catastrophic insurance is almost cheap. But few want catastrophic insurance and a catastrophe for a poor person starts much lower than that.
    Life is complex.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Did you read Georges answer to Peters question, did you read Roberts post. Can you comprehend what those words mean?
    I did. But I don't think I needed to. Someone uses an outlier and claims it is normal. That is a poor way to argue.
    Life is complex.

  29. #99
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I did. But I don't think I needed to. Someone uses an outlier and claims it is normal. That is a poor way to argue.
    Hoist by your own petard.
    Rattling the teacups.

  30. #100
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I did. But I don't think I needed to. Someone uses an outlier and claims it is normal. That is a poor way to argue.
    Outlier? If it happened to Rob or to Peter it could happen to anyone, including you or your family. You cannot say "Go away nasty illness, I can't afford you", you have to be covered for any and every eventuality.
    Talk about a poor argument, look in the mirror sunshine.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  31. #101
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    The odds of having an expense that large are insignificant. Catastrophic insurance is almost cheap. But few want catastrophic insurance and a catastrophe for a poor person starts much lower than that.
    Wait. I was with you, actually, most of the way. Then you said the odds of having a significant health cost are small?
    We we're speaking of a brain cancer and a spinal injury. Neither is particularly rare, though the form of cancer may be. I also spoke of my mother, who had a routine heart surgery to keep her wearing out ticker going.

    None of these are outliers. Everyone gets sick at some point. If you have money, or good coverage, you do fine. If you don't?

    Well. See, the whole system breaks down for me when it seems to require everyone to be wealthy. There is NO WAY every citizen can be rich. The game don't work that way.
    It seems to me, though, that a healthy population is more useful and profitable, and from that view alone, every person in this country should be afforded health care. Yes, Virginia, from the tax coffers. Don't we pay the government taxes so they can use them to take care of business for us?

    Peace,
    Robert

  32. #102
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Let me rephrase: What does one person gain by another person not being insured? It's not like we let that person die; we treat him. That cost is passed on to the rest of us. This is more expensive than insuring him.
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

  33. #103
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Wait. I was with you, actually, most of the way. Then you said the odds of having a significant health cost are small?
    We we're speaking of a brain cancer and a spinal injury. Neither is particularly rare, though the form of cancer may be. I also spoke of my mother, who had a routine heart surgery to keep her wearing out ticker going.

    None of these are outliers. Everyone gets sick at some point. If you have money, or good coverage, you do fine. If you don't?

    Well. See, the whole system breaks down for me when it seems to require everyone to be wealthy. There is NO WAY every citizen can be rich. The game don't work that way.
    It seems to me, though, that a healthy population is more useful and profitable, and from that view alone, every person in this country should be afforded health care. Yes, Virginia, from the tax coffers. Don't we pay the government taxes so they can use them to take care of business for us?

    Peace,
    Robert
    Taxes are theft!!!


    Government is bad!!!
    Rattling the teacups.

  34. #104
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Taxes are theft!!!


    Government is bad!!!
    Until you break your suspension on a dirt road and can't cross a river for the lack of a bridge.

    Aren't some Americans stupid.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  35. #105
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Until you break your suspension on a dirt road and can't cross a river for the lack of a bridge.

    Aren't some Americans stupid.
    Statistically speaking, not any more stupider than the run of the mill human.

    As a nation, though, we have been led to believe that Capitalism is enshrined in the Constitution, and that Money has Divine Right.
    Rattling the teacups.

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