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Thread: Why would any American

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Actually mdh is not far off. Income taxes are above 20% of income. And the top 1% get 17% of income. Of course that "income" does not count all income that the rich have.
    That could have been worded better.

    How about I change my post to "tax them fairly on all the income"?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Why would any American

    As Bernie Sanders points out, there are any number of countries with centralized medical systems that are far more effective, and cost effective, than ours. We can certainly afford single-payer, all that is lacking is political will. To insist otherwise is sophistry.
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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That could have been worded better.

    How about I change my post to "tax them fairly on all the income"?
    I would tax them more than fairly, but ...
    Life is complex.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    Is that what you think everybody will have, really good healthcare, if single payer is enacted. If so, i would suggest you take a good look at medicare, medicaid, the VA, the Indian Health Service. They are all run by the gov't, and i wouldn't call any of them 'really good'. What congressmen get might be called really good.
    Medicare comes as close to single payer as you can get in this country. So far I would characterize the care I have received through medicare as really good. The only fault I see is that it can be a bit difficult for some people to understand the system. I'd guess you're one of those who doesn't understand.

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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    Medicare comes as close to single payer as you can get in this country. So far I would characterize the care I have received through medicare as really good. The only fault I see is that it can be a bit difficult for some people to understand the system. I'd guess you're one of those who doesn't understand.
    Are you considering Medicare or Medicare plus Medicare Advantage?

    You might look at your responsibility for hospital costs under Medicare.
    Life is complex.

  6. #41
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    Default

    I know several veterans, my dad being one of them, who consider the VA as excellent care.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I don't know, my Healthcare is now, by far, both the worse and most expensive I have had. Yet everyone else n the forum seems to desire that for me. The closest hospital in my plan is an hour drive. I have a 13k deductible. I pay 14000/year for it. From what I can tell, there is no one who cares
    You are right about nobody caring, there is a republican majority in Congress and an maroon as president so you are on your own.

    But, how do you know it is the "worse" policy?

    My policy for the last 10 -15 years has cost me almost exactly that ($14k/year) with a large deductable, and I hate paying that. But recently when I used it to save my life, the bill paid by them was $380k. And being human there is a good chance I will need it again for the same thing. So until you have used your insurance policy I suspect you don't really know how "good" or "bad" it is. You could always sell your house if you have one, or withdraw your retirement savings if you have some, or just be a party loyal constituent and die.
    If your policy both saves your life and allows you to continue on as you were before, it might in fact be a very good healthcare policy.
    How much does a week in intensive care and a month of rehab cost down there in Texas?

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Are you considering Medicare or Medicare plus Medicare Advantage?

    You might look at your responsibility for hospital costs under Medicare.
    I have always selected Medicare Advantage, because I have always assumed that any money that I give to the governement or insurance companies might not come back to me, and that I can only depend upon myself. Trump's election confirms this view. I viewed all of my social security contributions as just another tax, and I planned for my own retirement independent of social security. To me then, social security is "free money." I never counted on it. The automatic deduction from my social security check for Medicare is "free money." I don't notice it.

    My wife and I have zero premium medicare advantage plans. We pay $10 for doctor visits, $35 for specialists visits. In five years we have both had surgeries that cost us essentially nothing. We have saved over $36000 by not having medigap insurance plans over those 5 years. I'm aware of hospital costs under our medicare advantage plans and I'm also aware of our general health. Our savings over the years with the advantage plans, and our "free money" from social security will nicely cover any conceivable maximal out of pocket medical expenses.

    Anyone can do this to one degree or another, but they have to be aware of the issues involved when they are in their teens. With people like Betsy Devos in office fewer people will recieve quality education. So we're down to parents and family; if they don't give you the necessary background or you fall through the cracks early in life you're f*cked. It's also important to select a spot to live where a variety of good medical services are available.

    Good governance could make life simpler and more satisfactory for everyone, or you can have every man for himself. If it's every man for himself then you need to prepare children early for survival, and you need to be prepared to accept the dismal resultant society.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    I think the top 1% can pay for it.


    Indeed, the top 1% could pay off the National Debt, AND STILL BE THE TOP 1%.
    So what percentage of their income should they be paying?

    The top-earning 1 percent of Americans will pay nearly half of the federal income taxes for 2014, the largest share in at least three years, according to a study. According to a projection from the non-partisan Tax Policy Center, the top 1 percent of Americans will pay 45.7 percent of the individual income taxes in 2014—up from 43 percent in 2013 and 40 percent in 2012 (the oldest period available). (Tweet this)
    The bottom 80 percent of Americans are expected to pay 15 percent of all federal income taxes in 2014, according to the study. The bottom 60 percent are expected to pay less than 2 percent of federal income taxes.

    http://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/13/top-1...ome-taxes.html

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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    Is that what you think everybody will have, really good healthcare, if single payer is enacted. If so, i would suggest you take a good look at medicare, medicaid, the VA, the Indian Health Service. They are all run by the gov't, and i wouldn't call any of them 'really good'. What congressmen get might be called really good.
    I'm on Medicare. It works quite well thank you. But that wasn't my question.
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    When you don't have something, and are willing to take it from someone who does?
    Why does it require taking something from someone else?
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    I have always selected Medicare Advantage, ...
    My point was that Medicare plus Medicare Advantage is different than Medicare. So both of you can be right. Comparing hospital coverage from the two plans is an easy way to see that.

    For those who don't know Medicare Advantage is usually a PPO or HMO. The government pays a fixed amount each year to the provider.
    Life is complex.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    I'm a bit disappointed that my question doesn't seem to be addressed. I didn't ask anything about "how". I only ask why any American would not want every American to have good healthcare.

    We can all go to the ER, insured or not, but whatever bill we don't pay is passed on to the taxpayers, If one is insured and cannot pay, a much smaller amount is passed on to the taxpayer.

    Notice the difference between the 'billed' and the 'allowed' If the patient is uninsured, the $9k plus is passed to the taxpayer. If he is insured and cant pay, the $167 is passed on. It would cost taxpayers LESS to insure everyone. Medicaid covers 1/5 of the people, funded by taxpayers. Multiple insurances require overhead by providers which is a cost passed on to everyone.

    Every other developed country has figured this out. The difference is, it seems, Every citizen in those countries WANTS every citizen to have good health care. Why is THAT different here.

    Before getting into how, or how much, please address the basic question. Do YOU want everyone to have good access to good healthcare?

    A POINT OF INFORMATION At 11 AM yesterday I suddenly got so dizzy I had to sit in the fortunately close by chair. Had to call the wife who called 911. I spend overnight in the hospital. MRI showed a small stroke in the part of my brain that controls balance. I would not have gone to the hospital if I had no insurance. Or even if I had a significant co-pay. I have some new medications, and will see my Neurologist and Cardiologist this week.

    Why would anyone want anyone to be concerned about the cost before calling for an ambulance? I don't get it.
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    So what percentage of their income should they be paying?

    The top-earning 1 percent of Americans will pay nearly half of the federal income taxes for 2014, the largest share in at least three years, according to a study. According to a projection from the non-partisan Tax Policy Center, the top 1 percent of Americans will pay 45.7 percent of the individual income taxes in 2014—up from 43 percent in 2013 and 40 percent in 2012 (the oldest period available). (Tweet this)
    The bottom 80 percent of Americans are expected to pay 15 percent of all federal income taxes in 2014, according to the study. The bottom 60 percent are expected to pay less than 2 percent of federal income taxes.

    http://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/13/top-1...ome-taxes.html
    I am sure your numbers are correct for income that is taxed. But it is far from true, when you use total income.

    I prefer to look at this a bit differently. The bottom of the 1% have much more income than those at the median. I would not object to those above the median begin taxed until their after tax income is near the median. I don't think taxing a family earning $1 million $950K is fair = 95% tax rate. But I don't see why the 1% should pay so little either.

    But if you don't like that argument, considering total taxation the effective tax rate has an inverted "U" shape - regressive toward the top. I would prefer it to be more progressive.
    Life is complex.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    I hope that the prognosis and outcome are good.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  16. #51
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I'm a bit disappointed that my question doesn't seem to be addressed.
    I answered your question. The issue is not about the quality or availability of healthcare. It is about who should pay for it. Most people want good healthcare for themselves. Most people want someone else to pay for that healthcare.

    We have people here who complain that it is difficult to live where they want to on $100K/year. I am sure they would appreciate someone paying for their healthcare. A valid inference of that is they are unable to pay for the healthcare of those making less than they do. Another valid inference is that no one with income of twice the median can afford to pay for their healthcare.

    I, personally, don't want the government to decide who has to pay for everyone, but that does seem to be a consequence of wanting healthcare for everyone.
    Life is complex.

  17. #52

    Default Re: Why would any American

    But back to the topic . .

    It is important to many conservatives that other people live badly - and if you pin them down many of them will admit it.

    They feel validated and worthwhile knowing that they have health care and others do not.

    I know, it's sick.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I am sure your numbers are correct for income that is taxed. But it is far from true, when you use total income.

    I prefer to look at this a bit differently. The bottom of the 1% have much more income than those at the median. I would not object to those above the median begin taxed until their after tax income is near the median. I don't think taxing a family earning $1 million $950K is fair = 95% tax rate. But I don't see why the 1% should pay so little either.

    But if you don't like that argument, considering total taxation the effective tax rate has an inverted "U" shape - regressive toward the top. I would prefer it to be more progressive.
    WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. I expect you'd have a problem with the second million of income taxed at 50% if the first million is untouched by taxes. Upper income taxes are just that, upper income. The first say $50k is taxed the same as everyone else's first $50k.
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I answered your question. The issue is not about the quality or availability of healthcare. It is about who should pay for it. Most people want good healthcare for themselves. Most people want someone else to pay for that healthcare.

    We have people here who complain that it is difficult to live where they want to on $100K/year. I am sure they would appreciate someone paying for their healthcare. A valid inference of that is they are unable to pay for the healthcare of those making less than they do. Another valid inference is that no one with income of twice the median can afford to pay for their healthcare.

    I, personally, don't want the government to decide who has to pay for everyone, but that does seem to be a consequence of wanting healthcare for everyone.
    Actually, the question is one of if people want everyone to have access to good healthcare. HOW to meet that goal is a secondary question to the goal itself.
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

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    Default Re: Why would any American

    are you willing to give up all your worldly goods for good health care for everyone?
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
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  21. #56
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I don't know, my Healthcare is now, by far, both the worse and most expensive I have had.
    I'm sorry that, in your particular situation, the care you have is (apparently) poor, as well as expensive. Of course, I'm sure that you don't believe that national health care policy should be determined by your specific situation... but it would be interesting to know WHY, in your particular case, the care is poor and expensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Yet everyone else n the forum seems to desire that for me.
    Really? Name a few who have expressed that opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    The closest hospital in my plan is an hour drive.
    You complaint lies with the free market... because, in your case, it's apparent that other insurers didn't consider it worthwhile to negotiate a contract with a hospital closer to you. The same problem exists elsewhere, only MUCH worse; insurers have no incentive to go through the administrative expense of securing contracts with hospitals that serve small markets.

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I have a 13k deductible. I pay 14000/year for it.
    Before I was old enough to qualify for medicare, my policy was more like $28K per year, but without the big deductible. The difference: I paid the extra $14K per year, EVERY year... so, relative to me, it seems you have quite a bargain.


    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    From what I can tell, there is no one who cares
    We all care.... very much. You shouldn't be saddled with a whopping premium cost, along with a huge deductible.... but if you're expecting the Trumpcare plan to make things better, you'd be on a fool's errand. It will only get worse, and most especially, for anyone in the 50-64 year old age bracket... whose costs could become astronomical and completely un-affordable. This is exactly what you'd expect when people like Ted Cruz thinks it's a great idea to sell bare bones policies to young and healthy people.

    Someday, you won't be young and healthy.
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  22. #57
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Mdh, you don't know what your talking about. Seniors love Medicare and it's run by Feds for .03 on the dollar. The VA was just fine till bush got us into two wars without raising taxes to pay for them and increase VA Funding. All you christians read your New Testament. When asked what he must do to be saved Jesus told the young man sell what you have, give the proceeds to the poor and come follow me. All the rest of your talk is BS. admit it boys, you love money. I like it two but people have to live. Remember what happened to the Czar and his family. They were all shot....while planning their seventh vacation.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    When you don't have something, and are willing to take it from someone who does?
    Wait! Are we talking about money?

    Because, unless you are printing it all money was taken from someone else.

    (Some people are very good at this and indeed make it their life's mission to take as much as they can. Those are also the least likely to participate in any program that might ask them to give some of it back)

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    not want every American to have really good healthcare?
    It's not too difficult to explain. It's not that I don't want every American to have really good healthcare. I just want every American to pay their share. The welfare tit has got far too many people latched onto it.

    When well over half of every dollar I make goes to pay some tax - federal and state income taxes, property taxes, hospitality taxes if I eat out, FICA, taxes on gasoline, etc. - I resent it. When I see a wave of people "feeling" that having health insurance is a "right" I resent it.

    When a 25 year old "adult" -and I used the term "adult" very loosely - is legally allowed to remain on their parents health insurance, I just shake my head. Have they no pride? No self-respect? No spine? No ability to get a job and support themselves?

    This country has sadly become a mass of whine, sniveling, self absorbed, lazy bums.

    There are opportunities all over the place. Get off your ass, get out there and get to work. No it won't be easy and yes, your precious feelings will probably be hurt at some point. Get over it, buttercup.

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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by cbcc View Post
    It's not too difficult to explain. It's not that I don't want every American to have really good healthcare. I just want every American to pay their share. The welfare tit has got far too many people latched onto it.

    When well over half of every dollar I make goes to pay some tax - federal and state income taxes, property taxes, hospitality taxes if I eat out, FICA, taxes on gasoline, etc. - I resent it. When I see a wave of people "feeling" that having health insurance is a "right" I resent it.

    When a 25 year old "adult" -and I used the term "adult" very loosely - is legally allowed to remain on their parents health insurance, I just shake my head. Have they no pride? No self-respect? No spine? No ability to get a job and support themselves?

    This country has sadly become a mass of whine, sniveling, self absorbed, lazy bums.

    There are opportunities all over the place. Get off your ass, get out there and get to work. No it won't be easy and yes, your precious feelings will probably be hurt at some point. Get over it, buttercup.
    Maybe we should start by a simple yes or no question: Do you think every American should have decent access to decent healthcare?

    How/who should pay is a separate question. It would likely cost less than our present system. We do spend a great deal more per person than any of the countries that DO insure everyone. If one answers "no" to the question, there's no point in having more discussion.
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. I expect you'd have a problem with the second million of income taxed at 50% if the first million is untouched by taxes. Upper income taxes are just that, upper income. The first say $50k is taxed the same as everyone else's first $50k.
    I was considering that the first $50K had an effective tax rate of 0%. That is currently close to true. The next $950K had a 100% actual tax rate, 95% effective tax rate. That seems to be a bit drastic.

    Actually, the question is one of if people want everyone to have access to good healthcare.
    I think it is clear that some people don't want everyone to have access to good healthcare. But then it is clear that some people don't want everyone to have access to good education or good food or good opportunity. Some people are willing to give the poor any 2 or 3 of the 4 items I listed, but not all. And the choice is not made by the poor.

    I am not willing to give anything to those in the top 25%. I think they are big boys and can make their own choices. I am not going to actively deny them healthcare, but I don't feel any obligation to them.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Maybe we should start by a simple yes or no question: Do you think every American should have decent access to decent healthcare?

    How/who should pay is a separate question. It would likely cost less than our present system. We do spend a great deal more per person than any of the countries that DO insure everyone. If one answers "no" to the question, there's no point in having more discussion.
    An hour and 3/4 but answer was there none.
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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    not want every American to have really good healthcare?
    Money!

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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Ah, yes - MDH, the Bilge version of Louie DePalma.

    Presumably all here recognize that no real solutions will be forthcoming from this source. But if you keep picking at 'that scab', it'll never heal.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Why would any American

    For those complaining about how expensive their healthcare is under the ACA, I almost hope TrumpCare comes to pass. Your cost of insurance is likely to increase by 60%; and pre-existing conditions may no longer be covered. Voted for the Republicans, and their 'vision' for America? You deserve this.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by cbcc View Post
    It's not too difficult to explain...

    This country has sadly become a mass of whine, sniveling, self absorbed, lazy bums.
    .
    Deplorables!
    And they voted for this Trump fella.

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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    For those complaining about how expensive their healthcare is under the ACA, I almost hope TrumpCare comes to pass. Your cost of insurance is likely to increase by 60%; and pre-existing conditions may no longer be covered. Voted for the Republicans, and their 'vision' for America? You deserve this.
    Some facts are self evident. The ONLY way to keep/improve benefits and lower out of pocket, including premiums, is to increase government subsidies. There is a reason why we pay more and get less than any developed country on the planet.

    It costs less to insure everyone that to treat the uninsured. Now, if you're willing to let the ill simply die in pain and NOT treat them in the ER, we could save some serious money. Our present system is the MOST EXPENSIVE on the planet, and ranks poorly in results. Employers complain about the 'high cost of American labor', but we ignore the concept that our employer based healthcare system is part of that cost.

    We seem to have no problem with losing a job ending one's health insurance, or that the overhead of the provider is increased by the need to deal with multiple insurance companies.

    If you can buy insurance across state lines, which is probably legal now, you will pay premiums based upon the state you live in, not the state the insurance carrier is located in.

    I think if virtually everyone said, "Yes, I think all Americans should have good health insurance", we'd find a way to pay for it. We continue to build VERY EXPENSIVE TANKS AND PLANES no one wants; they go straight from the assembly line to the junk pile. That is many billions of dollars a year, that could be moved to healthcare

    The argument that single payer is more expensive is simply not born out by any of the countries that have single payer systems.
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

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    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by cbcc View Post
    It's not too difficult to explain. It's not that I don't want every American to have really good healthcare. I just want every American to pay their share. The welfare tit has got far too many people latched onto it.
    I do, too.

    The top 1% control 90% of the wealth in this country, and it's only fair they should pay for 90% of the governmental services.

    Quote Originally Posted by cbcc View Post
    When well over half of every dollar I make goes to pay some tax - federal and state income taxes, property taxes, hospitality taxes if I eat out, FICA, taxes on gasoline, etc. - I resent it. When I see a wave of people "feeling" that having health insurance is a "right" I resent it.
    You may resent* it all you like.

    The fact is that everybody else pays, too, except the top tier.

    The fact is that by cutting our 'defense' budget by some fraction, we could easily cover every citizen and your tax burden would actually go down, without raising taxes on the rich.

    I would urge you to be joyful, rather than resentful. You live in a fantastic economy, governed by a Constitution which for many many decades on end has been seen as the light of the world.

    I hope you are aware that Capitalism is not a system of government.

    You should also be aware that not all people are graced with Ambition, yet contribute their all to this life, in the end.


    Quote Originally Posted by cbcc View Post
    When a 25 year old "adult" -and I used the term "adult" very loosely - is legally allowed to remain on their parents health insurance, I just shake my head. Have they no pride? No self-respect? No spine? No ability to get a job and support themselves?
    Money isn't everything. If it were, Capitalism would be a form of government.


    Quote Originally Posted by cbcc View Post
    This country has sadly become a mass of whine, sniveling, self absorbed, lazy bums.
    Yes, indeed.

    We need to grab these whining, lazy, self-absorbed little rich bums by the scruff of their little, rich bums, and put them back to work.

    Back when America was Great, the top earners were looking at a 90% top marginal tax rate.

    The only way around that was to work your ass off.

    You had to buy lots of equipment and train lots of workers, and produce the goods and services that Made America Great, in the first place.

    The whiner/complainers are complaining about the lowest income tax rates since Jesus was in Little League, AND the country is falling apart while the rich twiddle their toes and wonder why everyone isn't fabulously wealthy.

    If you REALLY BELIEVE that only people with financial ambition have any intrinsic worth, at all, then you should heartily support a completely confiscatory estate tax,

    You have no right to pass any material property to your heirs, because only those with the ambition to rise from the muck are worthy of money.

    Isn't that about it?

    Isn't that a sad, little man?


    Quote Originally Posted by cbcc View Post
    There are opportunities all over the place. Get off your ass, get out there and get to work. No it won't be easy and yes, your precious feelings will probably be hurt at some point. Get over it, buttercup.
    Yes. Yes, I believe it is.

    A sad, little man.



    * Somehow, the use of 'resent', here, reminds me of this phrasing:
    "I have stood your meanness as long as I intend to. You have played the part
    of a damned scoundrel, and are a coward, and if you were any part of a man I
    would slap your jaws and force you to resent it.
    Rattling the teacups.

  34. #69
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    21,019

    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    are you willing to give up all your worldly goods for good health care for everyone?
    If I could get that deal, I would leave this place right now stark, raving naked, and walk into the sunset.
    Rattling the teacups.

  35. #70
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    18,283

    Default Re: Why would any American

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    are you willing to give up all your worldly goods for good health care for everyone?
    you really should stop throwing straw men every time you have no argument. Costs credibility. Some info(note the cost is just a bit short of 'everything '. Shocking)
    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/07/1...gtype=Homepage
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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