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Thread: Dunkirk

  1. #1
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    Default Dunkirk

    looking forward to learning anything about its history

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koUmnIJqrR8
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    Default Re: Dunkirk

    Seriously?

    No... you cannot be serious.

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    Default Re: Dunkirk

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    Seriously?

    No... you cannot be serious.
    why not?

    I've already been doing some studying of the event in what's available
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
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    Default Re: Dunkirk

    I've always liked this quote from John Masefield: "Whenever tales of valor pass from British lips, they will tell of Dunkirk - - - and the little ships".

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    Default Re: Dunkirk

    Phillip... just HOW old are you? You DID have History classes in (at least) your secondary schooling?

    For a man of your age to come out with a statement like, "Looking forward to learning anything about it's history..." is an incredible condemnation of the educational system that passed you out and your ability to absorb historical data which is imminently available to any intelligently-read person over the age of thirty.

    That comment was like someone saying, "I'm not sure how to light this match"...
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    Default Re: Dunkirk

    Phillip, Google and read "Slapton Sands," and understand what Dunkirk really cost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Brennan View Post
    Phillip... just HOW old are you? You DID have History classes in (at least) your secondary schooling?

    For a man of your age to come out with a statement like, "Looking forward to learning anything about it's history..." is an incredible condemnation of the educational system that passed you out and your ability to absorb historical data which is imminently available to any intelligently-read person over the age of thirty.

    That comment was like someone saying, "I'm not sure how to light this match"...
    our education system is in deep trouble... I see it being discussed on this forum all the time... change your mind?
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shang View Post
    Phillip, Google and read "Slapton Sands," and understand what Dunkirk really cost.
    I will, thanks
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
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    Your education is up to you Phillip, you are an adult now.

    It's a bit like me saying, "Where there American troops in Guadalcanal ? "
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Your education is up to you Phillip, you are an adult now.

    It's a bit like me saying, "Where there American troops in Guadalcanal ? "
    I find it strange that I am condemned for wanting to see another perspective of a WWII battle/escape...
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shang View Post
    Phillip, Google and read "Slapton Sands," and understand what Dunkirk really cost.
    having looked and discovered that it happened in 1944 suggests very strongly that it does not bear on the escape at Dunkirk

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dunkirk
    Last edited by Phillip Allen; 07-11-2017 at 12:08 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    I find it strange that I am condemned for wanting to see another perspective of a WWII battle/escape...
    We are extremely surprised that you need to ask such obvious questions, but that may well be a function of the US education system. No US troops were evacuated so it didn't happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    We are extremely surprised that you need to ask such obvious questions, but that may well be a function of the US education system. No US troops were evacuated so it didn't happen.
    I don't think I asked any questions at all...
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
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    Default Re: Dunkirk

    I don't see the Slapton Sands connection either. Sands was a violently interrupted train ING excercise in preparation for Overlord.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    We are extremely surprised that you need to ask such obvious questions, but that may well be a function of the US education system. No US troops were evacuated so it didn't happen.
    I am extremely interested in history... much gets overlooked in various education systems... very likely including your own. I have learned a lot after I got out of school... much more than broad overviews
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    Default Re: Dunkirk

    Don't feel alone Phillip, I don't know much about the Battle of Dunkirk either.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    I am extremely interested in history... much gets overlooked in various education systems... very likely including your own. I have learned a lot after I got out of school... much more than broad overviews
    School merely lays out the bones on which we build our knowledge Phillip.
    My school history studies were NZ and Australia obviously
    European Economic
    Europe since Napoleon
    Nth Asian
    Ancient ME, Egypt, and Greece. No Rome.

    Those were the bones on which I built.
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    Default Re: Dunkirk

    A significant part of my own study of the history of warfare involves the weapons employed. Your own interest in small arms might provide a focal point for studying Dunkirk, ie, were the weapons carried off the beach (or left behind) the same ones taken back on D-Day, or were more effective replacements issued.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    I find it strange that I am condemned for wanting to see another perspective of a WWII battle/escape...
    me too
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    We are extremely surprised that you need to ask such obvious questions, but that may well be a function of the US education system. No US troops were evacuated so it didn't happen.
    Seriously, you guys studied Dunkirk, the battle, in public school? Not just the date and that there was an evacuation, but you studied the details of it? How many other WWII battles did you study, in depth, in high school? Did that leave much time for studying the political and economic causes of WWII? Are we dumb Americans to assume that Enzedders, Australians, and other colonials also learned of the battles of Changsha, Toungoo, and Yenangyaung; when our own education was sadly deficient in studying Japanese victories on mainland China?

    Some historians count that there 22 major engagements in 1939 alone? Surely the invasion of Poland and the political and military response by Britain and France were and are as important to study as Dunkirk. How much time did y'all spend studying it. Were there essay or research papers assigned on the Fall of Poland? Do your high schools still teach it?
    Last edited by Paul Pless; 07-11-2017 at 06:40 AM.
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    Seriously, in the Commonwealth I think the progress of the war came with our milk, remember most of our fathers had been in Imperial forces. We Australians probably knew the North African campaigns, Tobruk in particular, best. In my case then came the New Guinea campaigns and the Syrian campaign.

    There were American troops on the Northern coast of New Guinea too, the Buna campaign.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Seriously, in the Commonwealth I think the progress of the war came with our milk. . .
    just so

    And the same here for the generation that grew up raised by WWII vets. My father fought in WWII, and his breadth of knowledge of the events leading up to, during, and after the war were expansive. I learned much more from him on the subject than I did from any school book; but I think many in my generation did not have the advantage of having a much older father. . .

    But my point is that you guys are exasperatingly beating Phillip up for something that was/is no different in your own public education systems.
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    Default Re: Dunkirk

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Seriously, you guys studied Dunkirk, the battle, in public school? Not just the date and that there was an evacuation, but you studied the details of it? How many other WWII battles did you study, in depth, in high school? Did that leave much time for studying the political and economic causes of WWII? Are we dumb Americans to assume that Enzedders, Australians, and other colonials also learned of the battles of Changsha, Toungoo, and Yenangyaung; when our own education was sadly deficient in studying Japanese victories on mainland China?

    Some historians count that there 22 major engagements in 1939 alone? Surely the invasion of Poland and the political and military response by Britain and France were and are as important to study as Dunkirk. How much time did y'all spend studying it. Were there essay or research papers assigned on the Fall of Poland? Do your high schools still teach it?
    Some of us had relatives that were there.
    It was so important that there is an annual celebration where the surviving Little Ships sail across. There are history documentaries on it.
    If your school education includes WWII it is a vital component of the story. However, I can see why the US might not bother with it and teach Pearl Harbour instead.

    I do hope that this film does not turn out to be another "Shaving Ryan's Privates".
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    My kids go to a local Catholic high school that I consider an excellent school. The guy that teaches their honors history has a PhD, and is very good. Yet when I polled them about Dunkirk a couple of months ago, only one of them could tell me what happened. It is a unfortunate fact in the US, that we learn a lot about WWII starting in December, 41. Before that, not so much.

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    If you say so Paul, but I could have told you about Dunkirk when I was 10 as you could likely have told me about Guadalcanal, but we've had a long time since to build on the bones of that bare knowledge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    If you say so Paul, but I could have told you about Dunkirk when I was 10. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    We are extremely surprised that you need to ask such obvious questions, but that may well be a function of the US education system.
    . . .
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    My kids go to a local Catholic high school that I consider an excellent school. The guy that teaches their honors history has a PhD, and is very good. Yet when I polled them about Dunkirk a couple of months ago, only one of them could tell me what happened. It is a unfortunate fact in the US, that we learn a lot about WWII starting in December, 41. Before that, not so much.
    How about the causes Peb? The militarisation of Japan, the invasion of China, the growth of fascism across Europe. It really is an amazing story.
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    Default Re: Dunkirk

    This is actually a pretty interesting thread, though not for the reasons Phillip intended, I don't believe. I went to Alabama (Mobile County) public schools (in the States when we say public schools, we mean those funded by the public, not privately funded, for profit, schools). I have always been a history nut, all of my life, as witnessed by the fact that Spanish Fort High School has a whole section of books related to history donated by yours truly, but growing up our history classes pretty much began with Hernando DeSoto and ended with the American Civil War. The books we used on world history of course had the Second World War in there, but we rarely had time to get into any of it. The Spanish-American War was about as far as I can remember really getting in any of the classes I took in school.

    So, in Phillip's defense, if he needs any, it would not be terribly surprising for an American to not know a heck of a lot about Dunkirk. My own father was a navy veteran of six years, who spent the Korean War in the Philippines and French Indochina, yet I know next to nothing about that period except what I know about Inchon. I doubt very many younger people in this country know much at all about Vietnam unless they have run across an old copy of 'Apocalypse Now', and if so there is no telling what their opinion may be. I mean, the United States and the coalition of Allies including Great Britain, Canada, Australia, etc. have been at war in the Middle East for how long now? 15 years? And judging from these young combat veterans we hire out here I don't think the public understands much at all of what they went through, or still are going through.

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    Mine own early education on Vietnam came from the documentary Platoon.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Dunkirk

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    How about the causes Peb? The militarisation of Japan, the invasion of China, the growth of fascism across Europe. It really is an amazing story.
    The causes are covered pretty well, IMO. Not that everyone learns them, but they are taught. I still remember my high school history teacher telling us that WWII started in 1933, not 1939, with the invasion of China. The growth in fascism, the problems with the Treaty of Versaille, etc are all taught. But the early war from the invasion of Poland until Pearl Harbor: I do believe it is completely glossed over. It was when I was a kid, and I think it still is. Few Americans realize the debt the western world owes to England for persevering so long by themselves. The evacuation at Dunkirk, the Attack on Mers-el-Kebir (I would wager less than 1% of Americans know that Britian destroyed most of the French fleet), the Battle of Britain, etc are largely ignored.

    Its a pity, I do believe we are all in debt to Britain for the early part of the war, and it is to our shame that we were not willing to step in sooner and fight what is perhaps history's the ultimate just war.

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    Default Re: Dunkirk

    A related note: the early episodes of Foyle's War are so well done (perhaps the best TV show ever), and the ignorance of the background events make the episodes hard to appreciate for many of my friends.

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    Default Re: Dunkirk

    <WARNING!: Tongue-in-cheek comments ahead...>

    I think us Canadians are probably among the most knowledgeable general public in the world regarding the western nations' Second World War involvements. Not only were we in it from the beginning (unlike our southern neighbours), but ever since, we have been fed information from both Mother Brittania via our educational system and from Uncle Sam via the unstoppable stream of US media leaking across our borders. So we know about The Little Ships as well as The Longest Day.
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    On a personal note: this thread brings to mind a rather pleasant memory that I have not thought about for years. The night my first wife went into labor with my first son we watched the movie Casablanca, I still remember having to explain to her how France was partitioned into occupied territory and a puppet state on the way to the hospital.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I still remember having to explain to her how France was partitioned into occupied territory and a puppet state on the way to the hospital.
    you're such a romantic

    My father finished the last volume of The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire while my mother was in labor with me. I'm the ninth of ten kids, so not sure if he read the previous volumes while my older siblings were being born.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Dunkirk

    I went to Canadian Tire when my wife was in labour with what turned out to be our daughter. There was a flyer on the magazine table in the waiting room. Some really good deals! So I asked the doctor, "How long have I got?" He said, "Two hours."

    "Great!" I thought, and bolted.

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