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Thread: double ended boat decision

  1. #1
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    Default double ended boat decision

    I am trying to decide which small double ended row/sail design to acquire.

    It seems to me that if we take the Peapod as a base line of the type on the basis of its being symmetrical in shape and having an imppeccable reputation for performance and seaworthiness, then why consider anything else? Another way to ask the question is what is it all those beautific double-ender designs by Mr Oughtred and their Scottish and Scandinavian forebears were seeking by with non symmetrical double ender shapes?

    A practical example of this question is what is the likely perfomance difference, accepting build materials and final weight, between say a CLC Skerry, with its non symmetrical shape, and a Peadod of the same LWL?

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Not all peapods were symmetrical fore and aft. Some that are may have been so for purposes of being rowed in either direction or for ease of building, etc. No doubt some are very pretty in that way. Some that aren't symmetrical are better sailers, or load carriers. Depends on the intended purpose.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Thanks rbgarr, i get that now.

    Had I seen this wonderfully revealing presentation before posting i think i would have rephrased the question or perhaps not even have felt the need to post:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcnF5nTjqHg

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    That was very interesting indeed.

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Quote Originally Posted by bungalowbill View Post
    I am trying to decide which small double ended row/sail design to acquire.

    It seems to me that if we take the Peapod as a base line of the type on the basis of its being symmetrical in shape and having an imppeccable reputation for performance and seaworthiness, then why consider anything else? Another way to ask the question is what is it all those beautific double-ender designs by Mr Oughtred and their Scottish and Scandinavian forebears were seeking by with non symmetrical double ender shapes?

    A practical example of this question is what is the likely perfomance difference, accepting build materials and final weight, between say a CLC Skerry, with its non symmetrical shape, and a Peadod of the same LWL?
    Peapods, being flat bottomed will not sail without the complexity of a centreboard and trunk, but will land on a beach through surf.
    Scandinavian boats and their Shetland derivatives sailed without a cb, but due to the sharper bottoms were kept afloat, there being few sandy beaches to work from. They lived in what I think were rougher waters than you get in the lee of the American continent.
    The modern plywood designs have flattened the floors a bit, and so now need a cb case, but will still be a good sea boat.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Quote Originally Posted by bungalowbill View Post
    Thanks rbgarr, i get that now.

    Had I seen this wonderfully revealing presentation before posting i think i would have rephrased the question or perhaps not even have felt the need to post:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcnF5nTjqHg
    It is a small boating world. I just met David Cockney this weekend and he is stopping by for a visit today. I didn't realize he is an authority on peapods until seeing that video. Timely since I just started building a Doug Hylan 13' peapod this week.
    Steve B
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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    What are your aims here, with this boat? I think that's the better question. You would like a double-ender- fine, we can help with that, but what are your goals and dreams?

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Fortunately most contemporary peapods and other double-enders like the gunning dory that harken back to working boats were designed by good NAs and the lines are carefully "recreationalized". This is what lets them row well and if designed to also sail, to sail so much better than their distant ancestors.

    A very good self-taught local builder made a peapod that had a terrible reputation as a crank. It was faithfully made from lines taken off a very old hulk with the lines intelligently corrected for the nearly century the pod had spent in a barn after a very long working life. In its day, the original was considered fast and able for bringing in great loads of fish. The builder had a hard time rowing the boat and eventually gave up in disgust, figuring that maybe the mid-nineteenth century Down Easters were a bit crazy.

    On a lark I took her out one day. Knowing her bad rep and also having somewhere heard that Maine lobstermen used to set out with a boat load or rocks that they'd be tossing over as they pulled lobsters in, I launched the pod and then shoveled in a good 500# of sand.

    And she rowed well.

    Another friend had a similar problem with his traditional banks dory. Same solution.

    Traditional boats were meant to carry a load and many become miserable to row when light. Modern 'in the spirit of' peapods, dories, and such are well designed to carry a lot less.

    Some row boats, the Whitehall springs to mind, are designed for easy and fast rowing both laden and light, but the lading is well defined by seating limits. Working boats made for fast water transport of people are very different from working boats designed for heavy carry.

    Traditional small working boats were not usually engineered in the modern sense but working in a tradition and evolving designs based on experience made for boats very well suited to their purposes. Modern recreations are also mostly well designed for their somewhat different purposes.

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Callsign222, I want, simply, to have a boat that i can row solo about 8M to windward into a 25kt trade wind and big ocean swell without experienced complete exhaustion or catastophic swamping. I expect the ideal boat for this would be one of those sliding seat lifeguard dories with the big chunks missing from the topsides, usually rowed by muscular speedo wearing Californians. But A, i dont know where to get one of those & B, i look awful in Speedos.

    A better reason not to get one of those is of course that that are probably not very practical for anything but rowing through surf. Also i would like to sail home after my rowing to windward ordeal so some kind of sailing rig would be nice.

    I think in reality a Whitehall type is probably well up to the job most of the time but i'm a bit squeamish about those low topsides out in the big waves. I feel a double ender with a bit of topside is a naural fit for sea rowing even with the extra windage over a Whitehall. Though come to think of it i note that those US surfboats have quite wide transoms, albeit with most of the material missing, so perhaps a double ender is not inherently a better proposiotion for sea rowing?

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    not symmetrical, not Scottish, not Oughtred

    stunning

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    indeed, not too shabby at all.

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Whitehall type is probably well up to the job most of the time but i'm a bit squeamish about those low topsides out in the big waves.
    Consider: (1) low topsides means lower windage and you are talking about trade wind conditions, (2) swamping can be a really big deal or not. the difference is the interior design. my preference is long low full length tanks Prt & Stb that have a lip so the seat can be moved fore-aft to any position to adj trim/windage and if the boat swamps you can sit on the floor boards with gunnels above water and bail her out. (3) trim ballast such as down by bow (stern high) rowing into wind and down by stern (bow high) rowing with the wind so the boat weather cocks to the desired heading naturally . . . similar to Ian's comment about the cranky boat that needed 500# of sand, few consider that one trim/ballast condition does not work for all loading, wind and sea states.
    This is the first lesson ye should learn: There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, it doesn't behoove any of us to speak evil of the rest of us.
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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Quote Originally Posted by George Ray View Post
    Consider: (1) low topsides means lower windage and you are talking about trade wind conditions, (2) swamping can be a really big deal or not. the difference is the interior design. my preference is long low full length tanks Prt & Stb that have a lip so the seat can be moved fore-aft to any position to adj trim/windage and if the boat swamps you can sit on the floor boards with gunnels above water and bail her out. (3) trim ballast such as down by bow (stern high) rowing into wind and down by stern (bow high) rowing with the wind so the boat weather cocks to the desired heading naturally . . . similar to Ian's comment about the cranky boat that needed 500# of sand, few consider that one trim/ballast condition does not work for all loading, wind and sea states.
    Interesting Points. Gig Harbour make a Whitehall with sliding thwart and full internal buoyancy, but its made from the material that dare not speak its name on here.

    What is your take on the argument that a sea rowing boat should be a dory type that rides over rather than through waves like a Whitehall's plumb stem and deep forefoot?

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Rosinante? I hear you can row her if you have a mind to.
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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    Rosinante? I hear you can row her if you have a mind to.
    Only if you are nuts.
    I tried to row our Rosinante the two miles back to my mooring in Penobscot bay against an out going tide and by the time I quit from exhaustion I was three miles away...
    We can row it from the mooring to the town dock no problem, but anything further than that and it is time to just take a nap and wait for the tide. And that is why it has such a nice long cockpit.

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Eight miles against a strong breeze (Force 6, 22-27 kts). Definitely tough guy stuff. Minimal windage and super ease of rowing are pluses and it does not sound like you plan on going out through surf so some sort of efficient rowing boat could do the trick. Sometime in the last couple of years there was a wonderful comparison to three different super rowing boats. Maybe someone will remember.

    If your building skills are up to it, consider making sliding rowlocks rather than sliding seat. They are so much more efficient that they are banned and the one outfit I ever heard of making drop in units for sculls appears to have vanished. But nothing says you can't figure it out. It's just a matter of having the stretcher and arms on rails rather than the seat.

    Given the distance, I would put a huge premium on very easy self rescue, which pretty much means air anywhere your body is not. Many modern ocean kayaks can be paddled with the cockpit flooded held up on the buoyancy of the bow and stern sections. Something to which you might aspire.

    G'luck

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    If you want a decent rowing boat and want to row into a serious breeze, you'll not be looking at dories, pods, whitehalls and the like. Windage rules. Boats like the Gardner/ Herreshoff rowboat, Clint Chase's boat, my ducker, a St. Lawrence skiff etc. If big seas are a concern, deck the boat. We built a triple rowing boat for big seas that basicallu had a bath tub in the center with thwarts, fully compartmented ends and side tanks. Double ender she was.

    Peapods ( double enders) were developed as load carriers and live nicely in the 3 knot range. The working boats, the 15 footers, are too heavy to pull faster, while the small recreational ones, run out of waterline. Traditional whitehalls are also too heavy as solo boats to row quickly, same thing with dories. All of these and many of the modern boats need trim ballast, not very much, but are just as sensitive to cross winds as any of the modern sea kayaks which use skegs and rudders to deal with griping.
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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Hi Ben, that's a lot of mouthwatering double ended boats you just had me look up. Much food for thought.

    I should have said this boat i'm after will live on the deck of a large sailing yacht and be used as a second tender from time to time, therefore a full or partial decking is not really desirable at this point. It also can't exceed 15' or 130lbs

    I get your point about traditional designs being heavy in their original construction methods but the modern building methods are obvioulsy producing very light boats by comparison. The question i am trying to address is inherent seaworthiniess of a given design, of which i grant you, ease of rowing is definately a feature.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Per Ben's post: Herreshoff/Gardner boat, Clint Chase Drake, Ben's Ducker (not under oars, not a lot of good pics), St. Lawrence Skiff.


    Also, this post in particular (no. 54) is somewhat interesting: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...49#post4818149










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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Quote Originally Posted by bungalowbill View Post
    I should have said this boat i'm after will live on the deck of a large sailing yacht and be used as a second tender from time to time, therefore a full or partial decking is not really desirable at this point. It also can't exceed 15' or 130lbs
    DOH this was important detail/requirement my man!

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision



    14ft and double ended at the waterline, with reserve bouyancy and 85lbs weight.You will possibly need a canvas fordeck to keep out spray, positive flotation and a bailing system. I have plans for the 12ft version, as its light enough for me to throw (slide) on the roof of the car. A small offwind rig easily fitted and stored.
    http://www.selway-fisher.com/Rowskiffs.htm

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Quote Originally Posted by callsign222 View Post
    DOH this was important detail/requirement my man!
    Fair point, but check my username and don't expect too much.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Quote Originally Posted by bungalowbill View Post
    Thanks rbgarr, i get that now.

    Had I seen this wonderfully revealing presentation before posting i think i would have rephrased the question or perhaps not even have felt the need to post:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcnF5nTjqHg
    Send me a message if you would like a copy of the slides.

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Also consider and contact Paul Gartside for his swift rowing boat designs. He rowed extensively in Alaska in one and would have experience with long rows into stiff wind in exposed waters. Flashboat is an example https://store.gartsideboats.com/coll...acing-skiff-38 , which there's a blog about here on the Forum somewhere (and one listed for sale on his site): www.gartsideboats.com
    Last edited by rbgarr; 07-12-2017 at 09:46 AM.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Mr Cockey, yes please indeed i would Sir, but perhaps this may start an exodus of requests from others?

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    Also consider and contact Paul Gartside for his swift rowing boat designs. He rowed extensively in Alaska in one and would have experience with long rows into stiff wind in exposed waters. Flashboat is an example https://store.gartsideboats.com/coll...acing-skiff-38 , which there's a blog about here on the Forum somewhere (and one listed for sale on his site): www.gartsideboats.com
    I like everything about that boat except the idea of having to climb back into it from the water, which since it will spend much of its life in the Caribbean where i will be using it to get to speardivng locations, is inevitable. Perhaps i should have mentioned that before too.

    It is interesting to note the Flashboat's plumb stem, straight keel and deep forefoot on a boat with genuine credentials as a sea-going craft. These are the very opposite characteristics of the surf/Swamscott dory type which purports to have been designed for surf and sea. I sometimes wonder if dories where not much more a product of economics than purposful design/development that just happend to work as well as boats from the old continent with keels...?

  27. #27
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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Sounds like you'll be asking a lot of a single boat design: easy, lengthy rowing into wind and sea, on-deck storage, light weight, and stable enough for boarding from the water. Best of luck.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

  28. #28
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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    i think I'd want a transom stern for boarding from the water. Something with added reserve displacement aft, even with a ladder set-up.

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Quote Originally Posted by bungalowbill View Post
    Mr Cockey, yes please indeed i would Sir, but perhaps this may start an exodus of requests from others?
    Send me a message with your email address.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    The transom ladder is no easier than a proper ladder on the side for a swimmer boarding and is far far far more awkward for boarding from a dink even on a calm day. In a modest breeze it's very hard to land and hold a dink usefully at the stern. Add waves and the deal is off. And, back to swimmers, add waves and you have a good chance of getting a swimmer's head koshed by the underside of the transom.

    The only upside to a transom ladder is that you can make it to fold into the pulpit. It's almost as easy as making a ladder for the side that folds up to the lifelines.

    There are designs where the totality of the design really calls for a transom just as there are other designs where a pointy stern is best but those reasons have nothing real to do with safe useful boarding ladders.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    When climbing into a dingy/small_boat it seems to me that transom hull shape reserve buoyancy along with a step-assist/ladder would be great asset.
    There was a time I spurned the aid of a ladder/step/help but recently not so much, I relish the idea.
    As to a simple ladder I would imagine a single weighted step suspended by two lines . . . that would admittedly be very-very acrobatic.
    However single step fixed in place to the transom would allow one to slide over the transom like a seal sliding onto a rock after lifting/levering/balancing on the single step. There are some nice extendable stainless ladders that might fit the bill.


    $75 on Amazon , 304 stainless
    ( https://www.amazon.com/Amarine-made-.../dp/B00COCD2BG )

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  32. #32
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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Absolutely for dinks and small boats in general, stern boarding is the thing. I keep a sort of sling attached one corner of the transom to the other. After a swim, I can reach over to flop the sling out. It's such that with a foot in my knee can rest near the bottom of the transom.

    I find that facing forward through re-entry is awkward. As I stand, there's a moment at the top of my lift where most of the weight comes off my foot. I use that moment to twist 180 degrees and then easily sit, legs over the transom.

    I hit on this because I had been properly taught when young when assisting a swimmer into a small boat, to cross my arms as I reach theirs - my right to his or her right. Then at the top of the lift I turn them. Much easier than getting them stuck pelvis jack knifed on the transom.

    My criticism of stern ladders is really confined to their popularity on small sailing cruisers. I approve their use on Bayliners and SeaRays and such as that puts people who buy such things closer to a Darwin moment with the propeller.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Given the lightness wanted, the need for low windage, and the need to board over the transom I wonder if Redmond's Whisp without sailing rig might be a place to start. A simple sling with a bit of firehose that can get pulled into the water would facilitate boarding.
    Ben Fuller
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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Actually the way i do it is Flying fish style: wearing my long carbon freediving fins i breach the surface next to the boat so that i'm a good way over the gunnel before landing. Not as painful as it sounds, in an inflatable anyway.

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    Default Re: double ended boat decision

    Any feedback you want to offer on post 21? Good/bad/indifferent?

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