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Thread: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

  1. #211
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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I see that the troll is winning.
    This thread is now about the Grinch, no longer about bigotry in the southern US states.
    I have the Grinch on Ignore. Therefore,I can't be sure but from Nick's comment, "no longer about bigotry in the southern US states" isn't MacGrumpy from Maryland?

    Technically speaking Maryland is in the South..... ipso facto .... Isn't it still about bigotry in the southern US states?
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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    Ah, the blessings of Ignore.

    Try it, you'll like it.
    Gerard>
    Albuquerque, NM

    Next election, vote against EVERY Republican, for EVERY office, at EVERY level. Be patriotic, save the country.

  3. #213
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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    Prejudices in the US and elsewhere are diminishing with each generation. It's an evolutionary process, not a revolutionary process. The process cannot be accelerated.

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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Change starts with you...
    One of my favorite quotes is "Be the change you want to see in the world"
    This post is temporary and my disappear at the discretion of the managment

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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    Quote Originally Posted by KMacDonald View Post
    Speak for yourself---------there's not a prejudice bone in my body.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I see that the troll is winning.
    This thread is now about the Grinch, no longer about bigotry in the southern US states.
    Well it seems all about bigotry to me, some defend it and some find it deplorable.

  6. #216
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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    I think this is a place for this AMAZING photo - ​"Be The Change"

    This post is temporary and my disappear at the discretion of the managment

  7. #217
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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    Quote Originally Posted by KMacDonald View Post
    Prejudices in the US and elsewhere are diminishing with each generation. It's an evolutionary process, not a revolutionary process. The process cannot be accelerated.
    The first part is true; people's attitudes are on average quite different than they were 50 or 100 years ago. Partly it's a result of old folks dying and being replaced. For better or worse, most people's ideas are generally learned young and later in life change more slowly if at all. It may be something like language; there appears to be a time when the human brain is receptive to learning language and does it very easily, and once the window is closed it's much more difficult. It's rarer for someone to change their ideas all that much after their '20s, and although people do get more conservative as they age, that's often because society moves around them.

    However, I disagree very strongly that the process cannot be accelerated, nor its direction affected by what people do. There are limits, of course, but the culture is the statistical result of lots and lots of individual decisions, and they most certainly can be affected by political movements and activism. The civil rights movement of the '50s and '60s did change a lot of people's thinking, as did the women's movement in its various stages. The pace of change on mainstreaming gay folks has been astonishing. Revolutions may not happen, but we can certainly affect the speed and direction of evolution.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Sure - but that's an ideal, like 'love your neighbor as yourself'. We rarely live up to our ideals, although that doesn't mean we shouldn't try, nor that the fact we don't live up to them means there's necessarily something wrong with the ideals. And our understanding also changes over time; most folks originally heard those words as 'men', not 'people'. There are always contradictions; the man who wrote the original that those words are quoting kept his own children as slaves, which diminishes the truth of the words not at all.

    My point is that it's a rare person who can transcend the conventional wisdom of his own time. Most people in the past didn't think like we do, and whether we cut them some slack or not, we need to remember that. Moral progress is real, and if we're going to judge those who lived centuries ago, it might be better to ask if they were moving things forward or backward, rather than if they agreed with us.
    Oh, absolutely correct, Mr. Wilson.

    What I am trying to say is that the US Civil War is widely regarded as a 'test', and because the 'preservation of the Union' is regarded as the meat of the matter, that the US Government is widely regarded as having passed that test.


    I regard the outcome of that war as a failure of principle.


    The aftermath of that war saw things being moved SIDEWAYS at a phenomenal rate.


    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I see that the troll is winning.
    This thread is now about the Grinch, no longer about bigotry in the southern US states.
    Only if you let it breathe.

    Quote Originally Posted by SKIP KILPATRICK View Post
    I have the Grinch on Ignore.
    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    But The Grinch is the face of US bigotry, Nick. In all its bloviating, insulting, exceptionalism. He may or may not be bigoted against black folk, but he sure is bigoted against all others who do not think like him.
    If you ignore it, it will shrivel up and die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    Ah, the blessings of Ignore.

    Try it, you'll like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    The first part is true; people's attitudes are on average quite different than they were 50 or 100 years ago. Partly it's a result of old folks dying and being replaced. For better or worse, most people's ideas are generally learned young and later in life change more slowly if at all. It may be something like language; there appears to be a time when the human brain is receptive to learning language and does it very easily, and once the window is closed it's much more difficult. It's rarer for someone to change their ideas all that much after their '20s, and although people do get more conservative as they age, that's often because society moves around them.

    However, I disagree very strongly that the process cannot be accelerated, nor its direction affected by what people do. There are limits, of course, but the culture is the statistical result of lots and lots of individual decisions, and they most certainly can be affected by political movements and activism. The civil rights movement of the '50s and '60s did change a lot of people's thinking, as did the women's movement in its various stages. The pace of change on mainstreaming gay folks has been astonishing. Revolutions may not happen, but we can certainly affect the speed and direction of evolution.
    Well said.

  9. #219
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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag


    What I am trying to say is that the US Civil War is widely regarded as a 'test', and because the 'preservation of the Union' is regarded as the meat of the matter, that the US Government is widely regarded as having passed that test. I regard the outcome of that war as a failure of principle. The aftermath of that war saw things being moved SIDEWAYS at a phenomenal rate.
    I'd say the US government moved things forward notably by defeating the slaveowners' rebellion and and passing the 13th, 14, and 15th amendments. They they f*ucked things up royally for political expediency after 1876, then let it fester for 90 years, and we're still trying to sort it out.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    Have you ever thought the pendulum has swung too far? Two wrongs don't make a right.

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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I'd say the US government moved things forward notably by defeating the slaveowners' rebellion and and passing the 13th, 14, and 15th amendments. They they f*ucked things up royally for political expediency after 1876, then let it fester for 90 years, and we're still trying to sort it out.
    I regard the outcome of that war as a failure of principle.


    The aftermath of that war saw things being moved SIDEWAYS at a phenomenal rate.


    They 1) 'defeated the slaveholder's rebellion', 2) Passed the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments, and 3) Abandoned the entire African American portion of the populace to the predations of the 'slaveholders' so recently 'defeated'.


    Then, they "let it fester for 90 years, and we're still trying to sort it out".


    I think this means things are moving sideways at a much greater rate than forward, though things COULD be worse.


    I think that allowing the US Government to claim some sort of high moral ground on the basis of the outcome (the outcome we are STILL trying to sort out) is a mistake.


    I think that allowing a bunch of racist Yankees the opportunity to claim that ground is an even BIGGER mistake.


    The facts of the matter are plain.

    The US was not under any sort of moral imperative to free the slaves.

    That was a feel-good afterthought. A way for Yankees to pat themselves on the back while they allowed the slaveholders to oppress the former slaves.


    The things we are 'still trying to sort out' were enshrined in our Constitution with 13, 14 and 15 one hundred fifty years ago. The reason we're 'still trying to sort it out' is because the US is a spineless toady to White Supremacy.

    That sounds harsh because it IS harsh. We must face this FACT, not individually, but as a Nation, before 'we can sort those things out'.

    IMO, this is PRECISELY like 'personal growth/ overcoming one's demons'.

    It is hard. You make one step forward and two steps back, but eventually you become a self-actualized human being.


    Now, to be clear, just like the personal growth thing, the US Government is an absolutely magnificent machine that does tremendous works of broad benefit, as well as being a White Supremacist.

    We have a lot of problems to work on, but the aftermath of that war, the stuff we're 'still trying to sort out' is the central theme.

    We were capable of abandoning 10 Million Citizens to the horrors of of lynch 'law', so we have to face that before we can progress.

    That is why we move can sideways with such incredible alacrity.


    Starting to sound like a video game! We hit a place in 1865, where we didn't manage to move to the next level, so we're stuck in this level, where second-class/third-class citizens are part of the picture, and people who profit from those downgraded 'classes' have most of the power.

    And money.

    We can not progress to the 'next level' of this video game, until we get it right.

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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    Quote Originally Posted by KMacDonald View Post
    Have you ever thought the pendulum has swung too far?
    It's rare, but it does. Less than one might expect.

    When blacks were slaves, it was monstrous. The goal was abolition. 150 years later, still dealing with the remnants, the remnants are more galling because of the passage of time, showing how tough they are. Kills the hope.

    Kind of like, I guess, you have an alcoholic friend or relative that has been falling off the wagon twice a year for twenty years. Each new instance is less significant proportionately, you might say, but nevertheless each new one bugs you more. OK OK the worst is over, but when will it actually end?
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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    In what way is the South subjugated?
    Wonder if Phillip will answer this.

    The way I see it, this whole South thing has a large element of persecution narrative. So, what's the latest in the persecution narrative? The Tennessee Valley Authority? Integrating Little Rock High School?
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    It's rare, but it does. Less than one might expect.

    When blacks were slaves, it was monstrous. The goal was abolition. 150 years later, still dealing with the remnants, the remnants are more galling because of the passage of time, showing how tough they are. Kills the hope.

    Kind of like, I guess, you have an alcoholic friend or relative that has been falling off the wagon twice a year for twenty years. Each new instance is less significant proportionately, you might say, but nevertheless each new one bugs you more. OK OK the worst is over, but when will it actually end?
    Whose goal?

    Certainly not Abraham Lincoln's goal. Not at commencement of hostilities.

    Certainly not the goal of the US Government at commencement of hostilities.

    Whose?

    The 'goal' of abolition is a fiction, a revisionist construct.

    Sure, there were Abolitionists, and sure, they were making some progress, but the goal of the US in entering into a war with the CSA had pitifully little to do with abolition.

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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    Quote Originally Posted by KMacDonald View Post
    Have you ever thought the pendulum has swung too far?
    Yep, the current administration and its GOP backers are truly appalling. When the pendulum swings back it might make the US a Huuugely better place to live in.

    Sensible taxation, improved infrastructure, good environmental regulation, cheaper all inclusive health care for every one, the whole pinko commy tree hugging nine yards.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    What I mean is abolition was the goal in the larger sense, the arc of justice as they call it. No doubt there was an awesome amount of chicanery, backpedaling, etc.

    To illustrate by way of contrast, I will recount a segment I heard on NPR many years ago about the integration of Las Vegas, NV, as recounted by the guy who was the head of the local NAACP chapter at the time.

    Sit-ins came late to Las Vegas. Seeing the disruption, shall we say, down south, the power of the boycott and so on, this NAACP guy plots out a bunch of sit-ins in front of the casinos. They barely get started, and then he gets a call in the middle of the night from a guy with a rough voice, sounds old, says he's with the St. Louis chapter of the Teamsters' Union Pension Fund. "What do you coloreds want?" -- the voice asked. "Integration" the guy replies, but Mr. St Louis isn't familiar with the term. So the guy says, "We just want to come in, eat, drink, gamble, maybe stay the night, like everyone else."

    "That's it?" the voice says. "If that happens, the sit-ins go away?" "Yes."

    The next morning, Las Vegas casinos were de-segregated. No civil rights laws, no labor codes, not so much as a municipal ordinance. The St. Louis guy hung up with the NAACP guy, made one more phone call, done.

    The triumph of justice, riding a wave of self-interest. When American society comes to agree on where its self-interest lies, it will happen. The Mafia is much less conflicted in that way.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    Quote Originally Posted by KMacDonald View Post
    Have you ever thought the pendulum has swung too far?
    Sometimes it does, but not very often. On average, not even close.

    FWIW, abolition was not a major goal of the US government at the beginning of the civil war. By the end, it definitely was. Public opinion changed a lot in five years.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 07-11-2017 at 03:10 PM.
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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    Skip

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  20. #230
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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    That bikini does not really have a Confederate flag design.

    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    That bikini does not really have a Confederate flag design.
    But it probably means the same thing to her.

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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    Aus has it's own 'stars and bars' the Eureka flag, also borne out of a smaller revolution over taxes and votes.





    and this is the original…..


    Sewn by the wives and other women on the goldfield, and carefully preserved in secret for decades by their descendants.

    .

    It may have been small but it was important. Juries refused to convict the leaders and participants, one became a member of parliament. And of course that and the discovery of gold bringing people from all over the world stopped the naescent movement to establish a King and aristocracy in Australia. Many Ameican miners from California and Italian revolutionaries lik Rafaelo Carboni. But of course we still have the Queen, but that will go as soon as a satisfactory method od compromise between a Presidential and Parliamentary system is devised.
    Last edited by skuthorp; 07-27-2022 at 10:31 PM.

  23. #233
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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Aus has it's own 'stars and bars' the Eureka flag, also borne out of a smaller revolution over taxes and votes.
    Interesting; I didn't know about the Eureka Rebellion; thanks. It seems to have been both a far better cause and also more successful than the American Rebellion to Preserve Slavery.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
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    Default Re: Embattled Banner: The true history of the Confederate flag

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    But of course we still have the Queen, but that will go as soon as a satisfactory method od compromise between a Presidential and Parliamentary system is devised.
    Tricky. Who would want the job? Elected to do what? Whist being subservient to the decrees of parliament.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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