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Thread: Questions from a newbie before he jumps in

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Questions from a newbie before he jumps in

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    learning to build and learning to sail is just a bad idea IMHO Suggestion, go sailing! Rent or go on a skippered boat. see if you actually WANT to sail. 2 adults in less then 10ft.... eh!
    I would normally agree with this, but not in the OP case. First of all, learning to sail on other people's boats is not as easy as one often hears. Besides becoming a regular crew member for someone who races regularly, it never seems that easy to find the opportunity to sail enough to really get good. And crewing on a race boat can certainly teach one a lot, but nothing works better than being able to get out and sail one's own boat whenever one feels like it. Also, one learns a lot more when fidgeting around with rigging and such on one's own boat to see what works and what doesn't work.
    So normally, I would suggest buying a used boat to learn to sail. But in this case, the OP is looking to build a simple boat. One that can certainly be completed in a few months, even just working weekends and evenings. So it only delays him a few months from learning to sail.
    And as for choosing the right boat, do the best you can and just build it. Again, its not that much of a risk if you find you want something else. You will still have a boat to be sailing on, while you are building the next one.
    I would certainly echo the thought that on boats this small, one needs to learn alone, before taking another newbie out with him. I recently rented a small 11 or 12 foot, narrow dinghy, and it was a joy to sail. But it was tippy and with my wife on board, who is not experienced sailor, it was more difficult. It worked out fine, because I could tell her exactly where to move and when, but if I had been learning at the same time, I doubt if we would have survived (not tipped over) a couple of the gusts that hit us while we were out.

    I think the OP overall plan is spot on.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Questions from a newbie before he jumps in

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    sailing a very small boat is very aerobic for lack of a better word. It's not a sit still activity, most people sailing such craft really do plan or know they will get wet and make it part of the fun.

    My take on sailing is learn to sail LARGER boats.. but that's just me.
    Yes, that is just you. Really. From past posts (and this one) I've read on the Forum, you seem to have a very different (and in my experience, a rather incomplete) perspective on small boat sailing.

    Dinghy racing can be as active as you describe, and capsizes can be routine when you are pushing performance. However, that is just simply NOT something you can generalize about all small boats.

    A small, simple boat is probably the best vehicle for learning to sail. It is quite possible (and sane) (and enjoyable) (and safe) to teach yourself the basics of sailing in a small self-built boat. I did it myself, using a one-page "how to sail" diagram from a Dynamite Payson book and a Cartopper dinghy. Which, I have to say, I never once capsized.

    Small boats are much better teachers about the importance of trim, body weight, heeling, etc. than big boats, and are cheaper, easier to handle, punish mistakes in MUCH less costly ways, and (in my opinion) are a lot more fun. Frankly, I get a little bored sailing keelboats these days. You can sit there oblivious to so much that would be obvious in a small boat.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    Jagular Goes Everywhere: (mis)Adventures in a $300 Sailboat. Book release November 2014.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Questions from a newbie before he jumps in

    Welcome to the forum. I joined about 5 years before I actually began building a boat. My thinking was much like yours, but my first foray into sailing was a plastic Walker Bay 10 with a simple sailing kit. My wife and I were able to enjoy little sailing jaunts lasting an hour or two on local lakes. More than that became a little uncomfortable. Trying to get the WB-10, which weighs about 120 lbs, on the roof was VERY inconvenient. Getting our 15 ft Old Town canoe on the roof of a Subaru Legacy, which weighs just 70 lbs, is still inconvenient really. Transporting a boat by roof limits your options. A light trailer opens many. I think you might like CLC's NW/SW dory or even the Skerry with light Trailex or Yacht Club trailer. (We did use a cheap Harbor Freight trailer for several years, but unless you religiously grease the bearings and care for the paint, it will fail on you.) I selected the Argie 15, which is a fantastic sailer, decent to row or easy to propel with a small electric trolling motor, roomy, easily trailered and launched at only 180 lbs.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Questions from a newbie before he jumps in

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I would normally agree with this, but not in the OP case. First of all, learning to sail on other people's boats is not as easy as one often hears. Besides becoming a regular crew member for someone who races regularly, it never seems that easy to find the opportunity to sail enough to really get good. And crewing on a race boat can certainly teach one a lot, but nothing works better than being able to get out and sail one's own boat whenever one feels like it. Also, one learns a lot more when fidgeting around with rigging and such on one's own boat to see what works and what doesn't work.
    So normally, I would suggest buying a used boat to learn to sail. But in this case, the OP is looking to build a simple boat. One that can certainly be completed in a few months, even just working weekends and evenings. So it only delays him a few months from learning to sail.
    And as for choosing the right boat, do the best you can and just build it. Again, its not that much of a risk if you find you want something else. You will still have a boat to be sailing on, while you are building the next one.
    I would certainly echo the thought that on boats this small, one needs to learn alone, before taking another newbie out with him. I recently rented a small 11 or 12 foot, narrow dinghy, and it was a joy to sail. But it was tippy and with my wife on board, who is not experienced sailor, it was more difficult. It worked out fine, because I could tell her exactly where to move and when, but if I had been learning at the same time, I doubt if we would have survived (not tipped over) a couple of the gusts that hit us while we were out.

    I think the OP overall plan is spot on.
    I don't care what YOU think. and your opinions may impress you more then others. I'm sooooo Glad you impressed yourself proving to others how you TELL wifey what to do and how to do it.

    Why you and others that clearly, have issue with me and quote me is, as always, amusing.

    I'm not saying anything different from what others are saying. But, it's always amazing, no matter how much I use words like "suggestion, in my opinion, please and thank you" somehow you (haters) just feel a need to put me in my place according to what YOU think. I don't need to defend my opinions or prove my experience, my advice, like anyone's is worth what was paid for it; NOTHING!
    Last edited by DeniseO30; 07-06-2017 at 02:27 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Questions from a newbie before he jumps in

    Was the OP hoping to load the Piccup or whatever pram in the BED of the pickup truck? With a dolly clamped on the transom, it might be a convenience compared to cartop and the overkill of a trailer. May be in a location where trailers have to be inspected, with eternal problems of lights and bearings corroding. Dunno how much you can stick out a boat from the open rear gate, but the OP seems to only have a mile to reach the lake.

    P.S. instead of the external lee boards common in these suggested designs, whatever happened to internal leeboards (bilgeboards)? I had a wonderful dinghy with internal daggerboards left and right leaving the center area free. Bolger listed a bunch of problems with the external, such as trapping floating rubbish, noise, and need for weighting.
    Last edited by rudderless; 07-06-2017 at 05:17 PM.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Questions from a newbie before he jumps in

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    I don't care what YOU think. and your opinions may impress you more then others. I'm sooooo Glad you impressed yourself proving to others how you TELL wifey what to do and how to do it.

    Why you and others that clearly, have issue with me and quote me is, as always, amusing.

    I'm not saying anything different from what others are saying. But, it's always amazing, no matter how much I use words like "suggestion, in my opinion, please and thank you" somehow you (haters) just feel a need to put me in my place according to what YOU think. I don't need to defend my opinions or prove my experience, my advice, like anyone's is worth what was paid for it; NOTHING!
    My gosh, I have rarely taken such a lashing even in the bilge. I apologize, I simply was disagreeing, in this case, about the advice of "learning to build and learning to sail is just a bad idea". And I made it rather clear that normally I agree with this advice, but only differ in this case because the OP wants to build a small and simple boat.

    As to the part about learning with two people on a small boat, I was agreeing with you and with Ian's last sentence in post #3.
    I have no issue with you and I certainly was not trying to "put you in your place" nor was I trying to be a "hater". I sincerely apologize if my wording was off, I can assure you it was unintentional.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Questions from a newbie before he jumps in

    Thank you, all is well in Camelot
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  8. #43
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    Cleveland, OK, United States
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rudderless View Post
    Was the OP hoping to load the Piccup or whatever pram in the BED of the pickup truck? With a dolly clamped on the transom, it might be a convenience compared to cartop and the overkill of a trailer. May be in a location where trailers have to be inspected, with eternal problems of lights and bearings corroding. Dunno how much you can stick out a boat from the open rear gate, but the OP seems to only have a mile to reach the lake.

    P.S. instead of the external lee boards common in these suggested designs, whatever happened to internal leeboards (bilgeboards)? I had a wonderful dinghy with internal daggerboards left and right leaving the center area free. Bolger listed a bunch of problems with the external, such as trapping floating rubbish, noise, and need for weighting.


    Rudderless transporting it in the bed of my truck is exactly what I had in mind. That's why I was thinking 10' or less. I live about 1/10th of a mile from the lake so I'd never have to get on a busy road and the overhang wouldn't be an issue.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  9. #44
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    Hyannis, MA, USA
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    Default Re: Questions from a newbie before he jumps in

    If the boat is narrow enough to fit between the wheel wells, it will be light enough to overhang by a quarter to a third of its overall length. Just load stern first and have tie-downs near the front of the bed (not up on the sides) so you can really hold her from bouncing. Depending upon her bottom rocker, you may need some some shaping to spread the load. I've found sacks with a bit of sand just the thing for this - like a boat's bean bag seat.

    Hang a flag on the bow sticking out behind you.

    G'luck

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Questions from a newbie before he jumps in

    For a truckbed, there are the various nesting dinghy kits


  11. #46
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    Default Re: Questions from a newbie before he jumps in

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Why you and others that clearly, have issue with me and quote me is, as always, amusing.
    Well, peb's response to you was about the most gracious I've seen here on the Forum. Since I may be one of the "others" you mention based on my recent quoting of your post, I'll respond as well.

    If I offended you, I'm sorry. That was not my intention, and I don't "have issue" with you. I do, though, think that your perception of the whole small boat experience is pretty narrow. So, when you post something that I think might lead a new Forum member to believe things about small boat sailing that may not be entirely accurate, I feel a certain responsibility to step in and point out where I disagree, and why.

    Again, I'm sorry if my quoting you seemed like a personal attack. I didn't mean it that way, and will try to be clearer about that in the future.

    Happy sailing!

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    Jagular Goes Everywhere: (mis)Adventures in a $300 Sailboat. Book release November 2014.

  12. #47
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    Sep 2016
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    Rochester, NY
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    Default Re: Questions from a newbie before he jumps in

    I think your plan is bold, daring and courageous. Unfortunately, and I don't know why this is but, you'll see a few on these forums who will tell you you're doing it all wrong. Not really advice, It seem like they don't even want you to try. Luckily most of us here are dreamers and creators who encourage people to take risks and act boldly.

    I appreciate that your seeking to find out if your needs are even possible, maintaining an open mind. That is a successful strategy i believe. I don't know anything about boat building or boat design, I myself am learning as I go, so I can't help you there. Have a dream, build your boat and teach yourself or learn to sail. Neither is rocket science and people have been doing it for millennia. I'm not saying to attempt an ocean crossing your first time out, but with your woodworking skills and a little research you can do this!

    And you know what? if you find that you don't like boat building or sailing you don't have to keep doing it! Your plan is for a small boat right? So you end up spending some money, not your life savings, just some money to try to realize a dream. Even if it is for not, you'll be able to sleep easy at night knowing you tried. There are literally hundreds of sources in books and online that offer various designs. Again, some will thumb their nose at anything not traditionally built of Mahogany and Teak with copper rivets. However, with the modern boat building materials that are widely available now with the simple click of a mouse, boat building is within the reach of the average woodworker.

    Ask your questions, find a design that works for you (keeping in mind that all boats are a compromise) and then go for it! You'll never regret trying!
    A ship is safe in the harbor, but that's not what ships are for.

    http://www.seadreamerproject.com
    http://www.youtube.com/c/SixPointsWoodWorks

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Questions from a newbie before he jumps in

    hey,

    I'm sure as a first time poster and relative newbie that my opinion will be taken worth a grain, and that's probly how it should be! but anyway, I pretty much did exactly what you are thinking about. I had sailed in a couple different PDRacers over the course of a weekend, but that was about 3 years ago. I loved it, it was a ton of fun, challenging, but you could still feel the power of sailing with the little boats.

    so I decided to build my own PDRacer and really learn the basics of sailing. I had never designed a boat, didn't look at any real plans, only pictures of boats and things. but I designed what I thought would be a solid boat, and one that would be fun to sail. PDRacers are really easy to do this with, and the potential for customization and experimenting is almost limitless (ok, within reason). now I have a schooner rigged PDR that I sail almost every day! It's a ton of fun, and I am really glad I did it. The real sailors on the lake get a kick out of it, and many of them have complimented me on the rig, and some have criticized my sail-making ability! Either way, Im learning a lot, thinking about the design of a "real" sailboat that I am going to build next, and loving every minute of it. Go build yourself a PDRacer!!

    btw, I have no affiliation with the PDR folks, other than I am one now and not at all ashamed next to the 25' yachts out on the lake Good luck, and have fun sailing!

    travis

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