Tammie Norrie comes to Coos Bay

[KenStocker]

After 35 years of dreaming and looking at wooden boat plans and pictures, yesterday marks the day that I actually ordered plans to build the Tammie Norrie. When the email notification from Wooden Boat said "A wonderful package was shipped to you on 06/26/2017", they have no idea!

My plan is to order the kit and begin Jan 1st. In the intervening 6 months I will clean out the shop, study the plans, and as much as possible begin with gathering materials for the transom, knees, keel, stems, tiller etc. Also toward the first of the year, begin putting together the strong back. Also getting ready the plywood "clamps" I've seen for the planking process. Also starting a blog that will give me a platform to share the progress. That is a lot of "also's" isn't it? I have serious doubts that I'll be bored! I am also sure that there will be a fair number of ignorance gaps that I will fill with your help as I go along! But I have seen the wealth of knowledge and experience that is available here. Have spent the last 3 weeks laid up off of work, so had plenty of time to read, prepare, and talk to Gardner Pickering at Hewes and Co. He was very helpful in helping me choose between my last few options as to which boat I wanted to build. Amazing how motivating it was to talk to some one that was actually involved in making the kits, shipping them, and conversing about the reality of making this actually happen! As you might have picked up...can't wait!

[Rich Jones]

We'll be following along. I've spent the last 45 years building wooden boats as an amateur. There is no better hobby! You create a thing of beauty that has a practical use.
You mentioned gathering materials for transom, etc., etc. I'd suggest starting to make those parts now and have them ready to go when you start building. It'll get the creative juices flowing.
Keep us posted.

[KenStocker]

We'll be following along. I've spent the last 45 years building wooden boats as an amateur. There is no better hobby! You create a thing of beauty that has a practical use.
You mentioned gathering materials for transom, etc., etc. I'd suggest starting to make those parts now and have them ready to go when you start building. It'll get the creative juices flowing.
Keep us posted.

That is my plan. Just a few things to take care of first...finish my wife's quilting table, clean out the shop, get through the holidays, sell my house, you know, the usual list! But though I am not expecting it to be a fast build, I do expect, as you said, for it to be very satisfying!

Ken

[BC Bill]

Hi Ken -

Agree with everything Rich says above. I have built two Oughtred designs (Elfyn and Sooty Tern) and they are both superb boats. I built from scratch but I don't think the kits were available back then, or else I didn't know about them. I would be tempted to go the kit route if I ever build another.

I'm in Corvallis. Let me know if you have any questions. I am not an expert by any means but I have 6 great self built boats to prove it can be done.

Bill

[KenStocker]

I was reading an article tonight that classified Port Orford white cedar as a hardwood. Living about 2 hours north of Port Orford, I am obviously close to sources for that wood. I have used some for a large, slanted 1908 house window frame. I would not have called it a hardwood, though harder than red cedar. As I read more, I kept reading that it was widely used for boat building. I can see it for planking, but was really wondering if it would be hard enough, (or does it matter?) for the stem and keel? It is easy to work, and I would imagine that would do well for shaping the land for planks on both. I would really rather use mahogany for the transom, just for the color in order to finish it bright. But for the stem and keel? I would appreciate your thoughts. 

[KenStocker]

Hi Ken -

Agree with everything Rich says above. I have built two Oughtred designs (Elfyn and Sooty Tern) and they are both superb boats. I built from scratch but I don't think the kits were available back then, or else I didn't know about them. I would be tempted to go the kit route if I ever build another.

I'm in Corvallis. Let me know if you have any questions. I am not an expert by any means but I have 6 great self built boats to prove it can be done.

Bill

Thanks for your response Bill. It is good to hear from some one close to home! If I have questions I will certainly be in touch. Being from the great Pacific Northwest, what have you found available for stem, keel, and transom woods? As in the above post, I am considering Port Orford Cedar for some, but not decided yet about possibly using mahogany for the transom. There are a couple of source here locally, LNL Lumber just between here and Coquille that apparently is now carrying a variety of hardwoods. I have not been in there since they changed ownership a couple of years ago. Also a mill just east of Coquille that has Port Orford cedar I have used for other projects. What have you used?

[KenStocker]

Also Bill, where do you sail?

[David G]

Ken - welcome to another NW boater. I'm in Portland now, but originally from Astoria. If you don't already know about the Coots - check us out, and feel free to come to any of the events. Let me suggest the Port of Toledo Wooden Boat Show in particular.

http://www.coots.org/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/arbord...57671840945552

[Edward Pearson]

I had a sloop TN.

My optimum Tammie Norrie would now be built thus:

1. Alaskan Yellow Cedar inner stem, keelson, thwarts, floors and floorboards.
2. Sapeli outer stem and keel, inner and outer gunwales, mast foot and transom.
3. 6mm Sapeli plywood garboard and sheerstrake.
4. 6mm Occume rest of planking.
5. Hollow Sitka Spruce mast. Culler pattern oars.
6. Single balanced lug rig.
7. Laminated Alaskan Yellow cedar edged with Sapeli then glassed rudder and centerboard.
8. At least epoxy coat it internally to the turn of the bilge. Fillet between the keelson and garboard, and floors to planking.
9. MAS or Sicomin Epoxy. Neither blushes or smells. The MAS seems to retain slightly more flexibility. The Sicomin won't crystalise when left.
10. Bronze centerboard pin and bushes.
11. Storage for a Fortress anchor, a means to secure a coolbox full of food and drink in the boat and a rod holder out back because its a great picnic boat.

You should be asking for clear straight grained old growth close ringed quarter sawn cedar and spruce (and treat it with the reverance it deserves), the Sapeli you'll just have to pick out the best you can. There are reasons for all on that list regarding durability, useability or performance, if your not sure why just ask.

[KenStocker]

Ken - welcome to another NW boater. I'm in Portland now, but originally from Astoria. If you don't already know about the Coots - check us out, and feel free to come to any of the events. Let me suggest the Port of Toledo Wooden Boat Show in particular.

http://www.coots.org/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/arbord...57671840945552

Thanks so much for the links! Looks like some events I could take advantage of in the days ahead. I am a little surprised that Coots hasn't teamed up with the Yacht Club here on Tenmile Lake. Good sized lake with the Club at the end of one arm. We also now have the Coos Bay Boatbuilding Center that I need to get in touch with and see what resources they might have available. These two ought to team up to see about more involvement with Coots. I won't have time to be involved, as I have work to do here!

[KenStocker]

I had a sloop TN.

My optimum Tammie Norrie would now be built thus:

1. Alaskan Yellow Cedar inner stem, keelson, thwarts, floors and floorboards.
2. Sapeli outer stem and keel, inner and outer gunwales, mast foot and transom.
3. 6mm Sapeli plywood garboard and sheerstrake.
4. 6mm Occume rest of planking.
5. Hollow Sitka Spruce mast. Culler pattern oars.
6. Single balanced lug rig.
7. Laminated Alaskan Yellow cedar edged with Sapeli then glassed rudder and centerboard.
8. At least epoxy coat it internally to the turn of the bilge. Fillet between the keelson and garboard, and floors to planking.
9. MAS or Sicomin Epoxy. Neither blushes or smells. The MAS seems to retain slightly more flexibility. The Sicomin won't crystalise when left.
10. Bronze centerboard pin and bushes.
11. Storage for a Fortress anchor, a means to secure a coolbox full of food and drink in the boat and a rod holder out back because its a great picnic boat.

You should be asking for clear straight grained old growth close ringed quarter sawn cedar and spruce (and treat it with the reverance it deserves), the Sapeli you'll just have to pick out the best you can. There are reasons for all on that list regarding durability, useability or performance, if your not sure why just ask.

Wow! Thanks so much for such a detailed list! That will help immensely with my search for materials, and if I have trouble finding a source for some of it, I will be in touch. That's what's so nice about connecting with people at least in state, so that I don't have to drive to Maine for lumber! Who ever thought it would be hard to find lumber in the Pacific Northwest, huh? (Though I must confess I am just beginning my search. And like any place, all species aren't available anywhere.) The days that Coos Bay touted itself as the "largest lumber shipping port in the world" are long gone.

[David G]

Wow! Thanks so much for such a detailed list! That will help immensely with my search for materials, and if I have trouble finding a source for some of it, I will be in touch. That's what's so nice about connecting with people at least in state, so that I don't have to drive to Maine for lumber! Who ever thought it would be hard to find lumber in the Pacific Northwest, huh? (Though I must confess I am just beginning my search. And like any place, all species aren't available anywhere.) The days that Coos Bay touted itself as the "largest lumber shipping port in the world" are long gone.

All of those materials should be available in Eugene - at Crosscut Lumber. You can readily substitute meranti plywood for the sapele suggested. Alternative source: Edensaw, Port Townsend.

Nice choice of designs, btw!

[BC Bill]

Hi Ken - I generally sail in Yaquina River/Bay, make a point to get to Waldo Lake and up to Port Townsend a couple times a year.

If you don't already have Iain's book, I would get it and start studying. Its all in there, but takes a bit of study, at least it did for me.

For materials I would not dispute any of Edward's recommendations, but keep in mind he is in the UK not the PNW.

I sourced some materials from Cross Cut in Eugene as David says. Spruce, doug fir, Alaska yellow cedar, white oak is generally what I use, all available from Cross Cut. Also I have bought stock from Edensaw when I was up there.

POC I believe is considered equivalent to AYC, depending on the quality you can get it would likely be fine. I used it for floorboards.

Plywood I imagine all comes with your kit, I have used either Joubert okoume from Cross Cut or Sapeli from Harbor Sales, shipped from back east.

Let me know any questions you run into.

Bill

[KenStocker]

Hi Ken - I generally sail in Yaquina River/Bay, make a point to get to Waldo Lake and up to Port Townsend a couple times a year.

If you don't already have Iain's book, I would get it and start studying. Its all in there, but takes a bit of study, at least it did for me.

For materials I would not dispute any of Edward's recommendations, but keep in mind he is in the UK not the PNW.

I sourced some materials from Cross Cut in Eugene as David says. Spruce, doug fir, Alaska yellow cedar, white oak is generally what I use, all available from Cross Cut. Also I have bought stock from Edensaw when I was up there.

POC I believe is considered equivalent to AYC, depending on the quality you can get it would likely be fine. I used it for floorboards.

Plywood I imagine all comes with your kit, I have used either Joubert okoume from Cross Cut or Sapeli from Harbor Sales, shipped from back east.

Let me know any questions you run into.

Bill

Good to know about Cross Cut, I had been wondering if there was a place to source most of these woods at the same time. And it's not that I am at all set on POC, just that we have that small mill right here. My problem right now is that I have had 3 weeks off, two of it on crutches and all 3 on pain meds. Consequently I have had all the time in the world to read up on, buy plans for, and get fired up about getting started. And at the same time can't drive to go see what's available! Catch 22!
The kit does indeed include the plywood, and it seems one guy had them sub the sheer with Sapeli, then made the transom from mahogany. Coated all of that, the seats, the knees, and the gunnels bright, and painted the rest off-white. I really loved that look.(see link below)
Thanks for all of the input! Helps all of the little details come together. When my plans get here the end of this week-ish, I'll be able to make a list of sizes I need for each piece and start shopping.
https://goo.gl/images/XDeqBC

Ken

[KenStocker]

I have been looking at the inner and outer gunwales, with the block spacers in between. I have always absolutely loved the look of that, and the initial build seems pretty straightforward. Till I think about the first time it needs another coat of finish in a few years. Then it strikes me as more of a torture method used in some concentration camp for rebellious boat owners. All I see in my nightmares is dripping varnish. Some one please tell me it's not that bad. Feel perfectly free to lie if you need to. Or is the plan just to sell the boat before it needs that second finish coat?

[David G]

I have been looking at the inner and outer gunwales, with the block spacers in between. I have always absolutely loved the look of that, and the initial build seems pretty straightforward. Till I think about the first time it needs another coat of finish in a few years. Then it strikes me as more of a torture method used in some concentration camp for rebellious boat owners. All I see in my nightmares is dripping varnish. Some one please tell me it's not that bad. Feel perfectly free to lie if you need to. Or is the plan just to sell the boat before it needs that second finish coat?

It's not that bad.

Now... do you believe me? If you believe me, I've got this bridge in Coos Bay that I'm selling cheap. You could turn it into a Toll Bridge... and sell Tollhouse Cookies at the Tool Booth.

OK - seriously... and you don't have to re-do it with a brush. You can do a wipe on/wipe off varnish, which makes it far less goopy and drippy.

[KenStocker]

It's not that bad.

Now... do you believe me? If you believe me, I've got this bridge in Coos Bay that I'm selling cheap. You could turn it into a Toll Bridge... and sell Tollhouse Cookies at the Tool Booth.

OK - seriously... and you don't have to re-do it with a brush. You can do a wipe on/wipe off varnish, which makes it far less goopy and drippy.

I LOVE tollhouse cookies. I feel better already!
O.K., this is where I show my land-lubber woodworking skill. (Which really isn't bad, I'll post a picture at some point.) I have never liked finish work, which I know will have to change. I have always been a Watco Danish Oil, wipe on, wipe off finish guy, with a coat of Polyurethane over the top. Thus, I have never used varnish, (gasps from the audience), and didn't know they made a wipe-on varnish. My sleep will be sweeter and more restful, and the North Bend bridge is once again safe.

[David G]

Wipe on/wipe off varnish is, essentially, varnish with oils and solvents added so it is applicable with a rag. Have you ever seen 'Daly's Pro-Fin'? It's an interior version of the product. Daly's also makes a product that's at the low end of the solids spectrum (more oil & solvents, less varnish) called 'Seafin Teak Oil'. It's a great product, just too slow to build a film, if a film is what you're after. A marine version of wipe-on varnish could be constructed with the Seafin product - to which you added spar varnish to suit. Daly's own "SuperSpar"... or any of the standard tung oil & phenolic formulations: Interlux #96; Epifanes; McCloskey's Man'O War; Z-Spar Flagship; etc. Or... you can simply use the Seafin Teak Oil. If used regularly, it'll hold up just fine.

Skip the Watco - it has no UV additives. Urethane resins are very tough, but not as resilient for application where wood might move as phenolic resin formulations.

[KenStocker]

Wipe on/wipe off varnish is, essentially, varnish with oils and solvents added so it is applicable with a rag. Have you ever seen 'Daly's Pro-Fin'? It's an interior version of the product. Daly's also makes a product that's at the low end of the solids spectrum (more oil & solvents, less varnish) called 'Seafin Teak Oil'. It's a great product, just too slow to build a film, if a film is what you're after. A marine version of wipe-on varnish could be constructed with the Seafin product - to which you added spar varnish to suit. Daly's own "SuperSpar"... or any of the standard tung oil & phenolic formulations: Interlux #96; Epifanes; McCloskey's Man'O War; Z-Spar Flagship; etc. Or... you can simply use the Seafin Teak Oil. If used regularly, it'll hold up just fine.

Skip the Watco - it has no UV additives. Urethane resins are very tough, but not as resilient for application where wood might move as phenolic resin formulations.

Thanks for the info. I know the Watco isn't adequate, but it's good to have some names to refer to as I get a ways down the line. Looking forward to it!

[KenStocker]

Are gunnels ever scarfed to achieve the necessary length? Even the13' 4" Tammie Norrie will require 14' gunnel. I have not had the opportunity to see how available that is, but just wondered if not, how that will be handled.

[KenStocker]

I ran across a book that I had bought several, (many)years ago. It is "Building the Skiff Cabin Boy", by Clemens Kuhlig. I really love his little touches at the end, including laminated oars, laminated center board cap, laminated tiller, (with a hiking stick that swivels to hide underneath the rest of the tiller), laminated boat hook, as well as a "good looking and efficient " pump, blocks, cleats, and belaying pins.
While I would stop short of the home-made planes, etc., I love these finishing touches. Well worth the look if you have the chance.

[snaildrake]

Are gunnels ever scarfed to achieve the necessary length? Even the13' 4" Tammie Norrie will require 14' gunnel. I have not had the opportunity to see how available that is, but just wondered if not, how that will be handled.

Hey Ken,
I'm no pro, but rest assured, pretty much every part on the boat can be scarfed, laminated or built up if needed. Some of us live a lot farther from good materials than you lucky dogs. Scarfing stringers, keelsons, etc. is an excellent way to practice your epoxy technique before gluing laps. If you make 12:1 scarfs a gunwale will take a nice fair bend like it is a single stick.

Cheers, Dan

[KenStocker]

One of the things Kuhlig mentions in his book "Building the Skiff Cabin Boy" is that one should never use kiln dried wood, only air dried. Is this over-kill, or a hard and fast don't? I would think if the moisture content were the same, sealed with epoxy, kiln dried would suffice, and be both more available and more economical. After all, we're not building a schooner here!

[David G]

One of the things Kuhlig mentions in his book "Building the Skiff Cabin Boy" is that one should never use kiln dried wood, only air dried. Is this over-kill, or a hard and fast don't? I would think if the moisture content were the same, sealed with epoxy, kiln dried would suffice, and be both more available and more economical. After all, we're not building a schooner here!

Not a hard and fast rule at all. But air-dried is preferable in most ways... if you can find it. Its biggest advantage comes when steam-bending.

[KenStocker]

Not a hard and fast rule at all. But air-dried is preferable in most ways... if you can find it. Its biggest advantage comes when steam-bending.

My local source has now started carrying mahogany, P.O. cedar, etc. and said they can order sapelle for me. It is, as you might expect, all kiln dried. Does Cross Cut carry any air dried stock? Not expecting to do much if any steam bending, though that would be fun!

Ken

[KenStocker]

I do better work when I plan my woodworking projects ahead of time. Since boat building will be my biggest project to date, I find myself going through the process mentally so that I will have a good idea of what the next step is, even if I am not starting for a few months.
I have been reading Iain's Boatbuilding Manual, and have a question about hanging the garboard plank. Given the fact that Iain's book was written in 1998, I am wondering if it is still normal procedure to fasten the garboard to the keelson, stem, and transom with ringed nails, or have we moved more toward screws, or just epoxy? (Backing the screws out before it completely cures?) I know myself, and am afraid I would mar the plank with heavy handed hammer dings. It also seems that there would be less risk of knocking the forms, stem, etc, out of alignment during that process?

Ken

[David G]

My local source has now started carrying mahogany, P.O. cedar, etc. and said they can order sapelle for me. It is, as you might expect, all kiln dried. Does Cross Cut carry any air dried stock? Not expecting to do much if any steam bending, though that would be fun!

Ken

I've only found air-dried stock at CC a very few times over the years. Count on kiln-dried. There are some small sawmills in Oregon that air dry their stock. As far a boaty woods... that mostly means douglas fir and western red cedar... but supplies and suppliers are constantly changing. You'll have to do some digging if you need air-dried for something.

[KenStocker]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/157200...posted-friend/

Testing to see if my pics come through. Carriage doors I made for my garage...the ones I hope not to have to cut a hole in to accommodate a boat that's too long!

[KenStocker]

I've only found air-dried stock at CC a very few times over the years. Count on kiln-dried. There are some small sawmills in Oregon that air dry their stock. As far a boaty woods... that mostly means douglas fir and western red cedar... but supplies and suppliers are constantly changing. You'll have to do some digging if you need air-dried for something.

Thanks, kiln dried is fine, cheaper I assume, and as long as it's not uncommon, I'll go with that. Thanks!

[KenStocker]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/157200...posted-friend/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/157200...posted-friend/

These are the before photos. One is my "shop", the other the 1908 "garage". Once I finish my wife's quilting table, a fairly quick project I hope, I will condense/move most of what's in the garage into the shop. Table saw will go on casters in the garage, so that I can move it around the boat, removing the out-feed table to save space. The strong-back will be on casters as well, hopefully allowing some flexibility in moving around the boat as needed. Anyway, that's the plan!

[KenStocker]

I've only found air-dried stock at CC a very few times over the years. Count on kiln-dried. There are some small sawmills in Oregon that air dry their stock. As far a boaty woods... that mostly means douglas fir and western red cedar... but supplies and suppliers are constantly changing. You'll have to do some digging if you need air-dried for something.

What would you use western red for? I have a bunch available for free,(air dried at that!) but had thought it was too soft, and wouldn't hold screws enough to be of much use.

[Edward Pearson]

Somebody trying to build a light boat might use it for thwarts and seating when fitting out. Gartside specs it for his oars.

[Brian W.]

Just a hello from another (sometime) Coot in Corvallis. Good luck with your build! Looking forward to seeing it.

[KenStocker]

Just a hello from another (sometime) Coot in Corvallis. Good luck with your build! Looking forward to seeing it.

Thanks Brian. Gonna be another couple of months till I can start, just getting things squared around and ready. Have the out-feed table removed from the table saw, (need the space, and can use rollers if needed) put it on wheels along with wheels on the mitre saw. With the strongback on casters as well, I should be able to maneuver everything as needed. Gonna be a little tight, but doable.
Ken

[KenStocker]

I came across a couple of free(my favorite price)pieces of channel iron that were long enough to use for the 13' 4" strong-back. While I know that may be a little bit of over-kill, I am more sure that they are straight than just about any board you can find any more, even in the great Pacific Northwest. Coupled with the price tag, I decided it would be worth the extra work to drill a few more holes. Last week I started to cut notches in the 4x4 legs on which the channel iron will rest. Got through 3 of 6, and the drive belt on the band saw broke. Ordered a new one, hurry up and wait. In the meantime, today I drilled two holes in each iron through which I will attach the cross braces. Also two for each of the 6 legs, which will be bolted on. Then a series of holes that will allow the 3/4" plywood to be attached on top. Not only will this give me the flat surface for the strong back, but also a surface on which I will be able to glue up the scarfs on the planks before I lay out the molds. Even before that I hope to make a boat hook and possibly the oars, in order to begin learning to use epoxy, since I never have. Baby steps!