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Thread: Roll and Tip--How long does one have to brush out?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Roll and Tip--How long does one have to brush out?

    Since we're discussing varnish alternatives, I'm a big fan of Le Tonkinois, "an all natural, environmentally friendly tung oil and linseed oil based varnish oil. It produces a rich, deep varnish finish that is strong and durable, yet it is very easy to apply and maintain." I use a foam brush, quick and no fuss.

    I've been it using on RIVUS for 3 years now, one coat in the spring, and maybe a second mid season. (Spars have real varnish)
    Steve B
    TraditionalSmallCraftAssociation
    DowneastTSCA.org

    TraditionalSmallCraft.com
    RIVUS 16' Melonseed

    "If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." E. B. White

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Roll and Tip--How long does one have to brush out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Yevsky View Post
    The difference in time spent applying marine varnish by brush and spraying lacquer is so vast that relativistic effects must be taken into consideration when measuring the difference. Lacquer practically jumps out of the gun and begs to lay down flat. Knowing what I know about finishing, the only non-boat things I would finish with varnish would be outdoor furniture, and then only if I was feeling especially masochistic.

    Buy the gun.
    LOL. Ordered one this morning. Fuji 4-turbine. I have a lot of cabinets and trim to finish so I think it will be money well spent.
    Last edited by chuckt; 06-26-2017 at 08:54 AM.
    Chuck Thompson

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Roll and Tip--How long does one have to brush out?

    Nice work Todd and Steve!
    Chuck Thompson

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Roll and Tip--How long does one have to brush out?

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckt View Post
    LOL. Ordered one this morning. Fuji 4-turbine. I have a lot of cabinets and trim to finish so I think it will be money well spent.

    I think that setup will prove to be a good choice. A friend has one and is pleased with it. I've always used a conversion gun but I've got a monster air compressor to power it. Turbines have the benefit of being a lot more portable.

    As far as finishes go for your cabinets.... You might want to look into water borne lacquer. For many years I have used EM6000, from Target Coatings: https://www.targetcoatings.com/produ...ction-lacquer/

    Like a traditional nitrocellulose lacquer, this will "burn into" previous coats. I've used it for kitchen cabinets as well as household furniture. It dries quickly and has no terrible odor. And it won't explode! Like all water borne finishes, the product won't "wet out" the wood like a solvent finish. So, color additives can be used. Or use de-waxed shellac as a sealer. The latter is my choice. EM6000 dries hard and can be rubbed out similar to a traditional finish.

    Jeff

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Roll and Tip--How long does one have to brush out?

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    I think that setup will prove to be a good choice. A friend has one and is pleased with it. I've always used a conversion gun but I've got a monster air compressor to power it. Turbines have the benefit of being a lot more portable.

    As far as finishes go for your cabinets.... You might want to look into water borne lacquer. For many years I have used EM6000, from Target Coatings: https://www.targetcoatings.com/produ...ction-lacquer/

    Like a traditional nitrocellulose lacquer, this will "burn into" previous coats. I've used it for kitchen cabinets as well as household furniture. It dries quickly and has no terrible odor. And it won't explode! Like all water borne finishes, the product won't "wet out" the wood like a solvent finish. So, color additives can be used. Or use de-waxed shellac as a sealer. The latter is my choice. EM6000 dries hard and can be rubbed out similar to a traditional finish.

    Jeff
    Thanks--I have been doing a lot of google searches on what folks like to spray. Water-related finishes do seem popular. I think of lacquer as softer but apparently some newer configurations are considerably more durable.
    Chuck Thompson

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Roll and Tip--How long does one have to brush out?

    I've been really happy spraying General Finishes water based offerings. This is their Enduro Pre-Cat water based conversion varnish, HVLP sprayed over a black base coat and after a week, sanded up through 12,000 grit and buffed with a rag. It would be a bit much for something big like cabinets, but I was pretty impressed that one could actually even obtain this sort of deep finish look with water based products. Do pay attention to coating thickness if they specify it on the can's instructions (some do, some don't). Exceeding the suggested thickness can have cracking problems later.



  7. #42
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    Default Re: Roll and Tip--How long does one have to brush out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Ahhhh. Shades of H.A.Calahan. (For those of us old enough.)
    Those were the days, Ian! I remember guys pulling "frozen" cans of Calahan's out of ice chests on a hot day and then wondering why there was moisture condensing on their varnish and clouding it all up!

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Roll and Tip--How long does one have to brush out?

    That looks awesome Todd. As a matter of fact, I ordered a can of General Finish Top Coat. A lot of sprayer folks seem to like it. And I saw a couple of videos of guys using it. Also saw it won an award somewhere as well of rest spray finish.

    This guy does a really good job explaining this kind of finish and how to apply it.

    Now, I do know that this is not the finish for boat use so I apologize for going off topic. Still a good vid.

    Last edited by chuckt; 06-26-2017 at 10:48 PM.
    Chuck Thompson

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Roll and Tip--How long does one have to brush out?

    The finish which is used on house interiors is called "conversion varnish." It is a more hardy version of lacquer...this is likely not an exact definition, but you get the idea.

    Returning to the actual thread:

    A couple points bubbled up...

    1. It is very rare to spray varnish on a boat. I used to work with a guy that would do it...but it takes more coats and the prep time (masking off) slows down the process. It is a bit of a trick to not get orange peel in sprayed traditional varnish. It certainly can be done but I don't think it is worth the effort.

    2. In doing a runabout, I would work an area of say 2.5 feet of side of boat.

    3. Use the low nap yellow rollers.

    4. Use a good cheap brush...Coronas are what I prefer, just toss em...at least for the build coats use your fancy brush for tipping the final coat.

    5. Foam brushes seem to leave a less glossy surface. And they feel dead...like varnishing "with a brick" as someone said.

    6. Someone had a good point: using a light to highlight problems. This should NOT be one of those "worklights" that are purchased at a big box store. Too much wattage and glare. Ideally the light would be ~100 watts in a clamp-on fixture and held by a helper.

    7. Penetrol does help. Experiment with the precise amount...it will vary for your situation.

    Good luck!

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Roll and Tip--How long does one have to brush out?

    Or learn to use a quality brush. You'll want to have a separate cleaning station for your two (one small, one large) varnish brushes so they never get near solvent that's been used on a paint brush. And while working, you'll want to hang the cleaned brushes in a pot of kerosene between coats - hang, don't stand them on the bristles.

    The light does help. Have it hit the surface at an oblique angle and get your eye close. But what works best is that one way brush stroke from dry to wet, picking up at the end so no bristle snap. If you advance about two feet at a time and make that long stroke your whole arm reach (about six feet from across the chest to arm fully extended) then you're constantly working over the last two wet edges and the coat will be smooth.

    It's faster than putting down the roller and picking up the brush and back and forth anyway.

    A note between coats: When I cared about varnish (Goblin had varnished spars, combings, toe rails, hatches, brow trims, and so on. That got me a few yacht jobs from impressed owners who wanted good varnish on their boats. Which is how I had too much of a good thing and now hate varnish but that's another matter.) so . . . When I cared about varnish I'd make a variety of sanding blocks out of scrap wood. Some for getting in corners, some flat, and some with a curve for different bits of molding.

    After each coat, I'd first give the area a quick light swipe with 220# on an appropriate block. This way I could see what high areas looked like. Then enough sanding to leave at most dapples of glossy unsanded. When those were small enough, a wipe with a scotch brite pad would scratch the valleys. Tack, varnish, repeat.

    The key to great varnish is simply the tedium of getting the surface flat. By the fourth or fifth coat, you should not need the scotch brite because you're laying down flat layers. Now here's the point of my joke earlier about semi-gloss varnish being like non-alcohol beer: Even with UV filters, the reflective gloss of varnish is a very important part of how varnish protects the wood. Remember, it's a boat, not a violin or a cigar case kept in the humidor. The varnish must stand up to months and months of sun and rain and salt. And if one of my boats, that's 12 months and don't forget the ice and snow.

    Go ahead and make your varnish a bit of a fetish. The more you do that, the more ready you will be to graduate to nice paint.

    G'luck

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Roll and Tip--How long does one have to brush out?

    Yes--I went off-topic. SV Mary-Ellen has high-gloss spar varnish on everything outside. The interior varnish is satin (or close). That is what I inherited. However, all the Concordias that I've seen appear to be a satin finish inside. At least one I've seen has the original finish inside (according to the owner). Kinda like Epifanes "rubbed effect" varnish. Not quite that flat.

    I agree with everything you are saying Ian and PC. Personally, I do like tipping out with a bristle brush better. As PC said, it feels better. But cleanup sure is a PITA.

    I wouldn't spray the boat for the reasons stated above and would never use anything but spar varnish on a boat. Although I might be tempted to try spraying inside the boat because of all the raised panel bulkheads and all the trim pieces. It is super-hard to avoid runs with all that trim work.

    I do think you guys identified the problems I was having with this spar varnish as related to the flattening agent (not keeping it mixed), the humidity, and the volume I was laying down (not enough in places).
    Chuck Thompson

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