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Thread: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

  1. #386
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Thank you so much jim! Well, in my case I can use both sides nearly equal, hardly any difference even when writing. And, actually really happy that all the sharpening is done for the moment - if we don't mention the chisel I hit a nail with the other day with a little bit too much force lol*! Surprisingly enough, I can notice a really significant difference with how long they manage to hold their blade after my session with the japanese water stones. Sure, I was hoping there would be a difference. But this is a big one and I'm very very happy about it!

    Well, initially he was talking about 2 entire weeks without moving a finger. We'll see how it goes. I had Friday, Monday and today, each 2 hour-sessions, and already down from 8 to 1 Ibuprofene and capable to turn my head towards the left shoulder without crying out in agony. Would be nice if progress should keep on going like this ... fingers crossed !!!
    Dody I suspect you know this, but the point where you start to feel better is the hardest because you want to be working but you really need to wait it out. That's my problem. I always overdo it as soon as the pain starts to go away without letting things fully heal. Take it easy! Better to let a few more days go by and be able to work all winter than re-injure it and be back where you started.
    - Chris

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  2. #387
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Dody I suspect you know this, but the point where you start to feel better is the hardest because you want to be working but you really need to wait it out. That's my problem. I always overdo it as soon as the pain starts to go away without letting things fully heal. Take it easy! Better to let a few more days go by and be able to work all winter than re-injure it and be back where you started.
    Gosh, yes, Chris, it's absolutely the same problem with me and it's so very difficult to overcome!!!
    Fortunately it's a tiny fishing-community here, and for survival out at sea they know it's very important to stick together and care about each other. After it happened they all came and said "don't do it again, next time please ask me to give you a hand!" and of course now they are all watching out that I'm not doing the stupid thing, especially after one of them also had to see the physiotherapist and got told that I'm not supposed to move a finger ...

    It really makes sense, and I'll try my very best but I can tell you it's hard!!!
    Last edited by Dody; 10-10-2017 at 07:54 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  3. #388
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Just wanted to let you know how far we got with the chainplates:

    Chainplate-update I

    We've come to the conclusion that we have to discard the idea of ALL-composite chainplates for Tonga.

    The idea of all-composite chainplates works certainly well on fibreglass-boats, especially when integrated in the whole system with a new-build. In these cases the composite chainplates become an integral part of the whole system, especially as the material surrounding them is of identical or nearly identical make and origin with fairly equal behaviour under all circumstances.

    This is not the case on Tonga. To start with Tonga is not a fibreglass-boat (and not a new-build fibreglass-boat either), but wood, plywood and fibreglass, where the fibreglass is mainly used for sealing. All these materials are far too different in their behaviour to guarantee a composite chainplate to be and stay an integral part of the whole system for many years to come.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  4. #389
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    in that case i think you could use the proper stainless or maybe galv again but this time have it riveted and not welded as nick suggested. ought to last at least a hundred years like that. or maybe welded and riveted?

    jim

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Thanks jim! We're still at it. However the outcome, if it has to be metal I'm inclined to use galvi or stainless - still doing some research. Welding in this case I would only like to do if both are the same material as otherwhise it's always asking for trouble. Concerning rivets, to be honest, I've got no idea yet what kind of maximum thickness one could rivet together, so, as it would be sealed from the outside I would actually prefer bolts.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  6. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Thanks jim! We're still at it. However the outcome, if it has to be metal I'm inclined to use galvi or stainless - still doing some research. Welding in this case I would only like to do if both are the same material as otherwhise it's always asking for trouble. Concerning rivets, to be honest, I've got no idea yet what kind of maximum thickness one could rivet together, so, as it would be sealed from the outside I would actually prefer bolts.
    I have a few friends that are very good welders and they tell me welding stainless is done with stainless welding rods or wire. Where the stainless is decorative they have to use a gas to keep it from turning black n blue but experience welders know this

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    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  7. #392
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Not sure, Denise. Alec, my ex, used his TIG-welder for everything thin stainless, explaining to me that with stick-welding it can happen easily to make a hole because welding-rods don't come extremely thin. TIG-welding is done with a tungston-tip sitting in a holder where the gas comes out and you feed a thin stainless wire with your other hand to melt and do the weld. I don't remember exactly, but I think the gas which he used was Argon or a mixture. Not sure now.
    The other type of welding using gas would be MIG. Imagine a drum with thin wire on it, the wire gets fed through a tip in the holder where the gas-flame joins it. The mixture of gas for this was something different, which I don't remember. I've never seen Alec using MIG for stainless, but I think I heard that there does exist stainless wire drums for MIG. Anyway, I can imagine your friends were talking TIG?

    However, the blueish discolouration you usually get rid of by applying acid to the weld, leave it on there for a bit and then wash it off. Well, at least this is what Alec was doing all the time.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  8. #393
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Thanks jim! We're still at it. However the outcome, if it has to be metal I'm inclined to use galvi or stainless - still doing some research. Welding in this case I would only like to do if both are the same material as otherwhise it's always asking for trouble. Concerning rivets, to be honest, I've got no idea yet what kind of maximum thickness one could rivet together, so, as it would be sealed from the outside I would actually prefer bolts.
    Before welding everything from as thin as an aircraft fuselage to as thick as a tanker hull was riveted.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  9. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Not sure, Denise. Alec, my ex, used his TIG-welder for everything thin stainless, explaining to me that with stick-welding it can happen easily to make a hole because welding-rods don't come extremely thin. TIG-welding is done with a tungston-tip sitting in a holder where the gas comes out and you feed a thin stainless wire with your other hand to melt and do the weld. I don't remember exactly, but I think the gas which he used was Argon or a mixture. Not sure now.
    The other type of welding using gas would be MIG. Imagine a drum with thin wire on it, the wire gets fed through a tip in the holder where the gas-flame joins it. The mixture of gas for this was something different, which I don't remember. I've never seen Alec using MIG for stainless, but I think I heard that there does exist stainless wire drums for MIG. Anyway, I can imagine your friends were talking TIG?

    However, the blueish discolouration you usually get rid of by applying acid to the weld, leave it on there for a bit and then wash it off. Well, at least this is what Alec was doing all the time.
    You described it much more eloquently than I did Dody! of all the things I can do welding is not one of them! I tried!

    I designed the wheeled steerable cradle that we used under my boat. But I only did a little bit of the welding on it and had it done over by one of the guys that know how to weld.



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    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  10. #395
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    You described it much more eloquently than I did Dody! of all the things I can do welding is not one of them! I tried!

    I designed the wheeled steerable cradle that we used under my boat. But I only did a little bit of the welding on it and had it done over by one of the guys that know how to weld.



    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Thanks Denise! You see, I've got a stick-welder, came with the boat. Alec's opinion about it was that it's a very good one, but, compared to the new ones, extremeley heavy. I always wanted to give it a go but it never happened. I did a few test-runs with one of Alec's stick-welders, but that was it. I do want to learn how to use it one day, but, for reliable and continous good results people have to accept that it takes about a year to learn it properly. Well, that at least seems to be the general opinion and I'm convinced there is a lot of truth in it. Right now I haven't got a year to spend on learning how to weld but want to see progress on Tonga. For the few occasions where I need welding to be done Alec is still around and Leandro, so for the moment I can get away without !
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  11. #396
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Before welding everything from as thin as an aircraft fuselage to as thick as a tanker hull was riveted.
    Ay, Nick, you are right, of course!!! When jim mentioned rivets, somehow I automatically switched to this modern type of rivets people would use on their aluminium-masts etc., but that can't be the same thing. What materials were they made from, and would they be used like copper-rivets, installing a rove on the inside and then, with 2 people, one outside one inside banging the inside tip flat to grip against the rove and pull it all together?
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  12. #397
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Ay, Nick, you are right, of course!!! When jim mentioned rivets, somehow I automatically switched to this modern type of rivets people would use on their aluminium-masts etc., but that can't be the same thing. What materials were they made from, and would they be used like copper-rivets, installing a rove on the inside and then, with 2 people, one outside one inside banging the inside tip flat to grip against the rove and pull it all together?
    This is the heavy end.


    For your stuff you need galvo wire nails, cut so that 3mm protrudes through the work rivetted over with a ball pein hammer. Then paint the cut end with zinc rich paint.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  13. #398
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Take care of that shoulder! You have my sympathy. This concludes the useful portion of this post.

    I haven't commented in a while since there isn't much that Nick and company haven't covered. I might have commented on the composite chain plates, but not without reading a bit more to confirm or trash my opinions, and that is now a moot point. So The rest is some minor commentary on some of the details, and the usefulness decreases as you read down the page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Not sure, Denise. Alec, my ex, used his TIG-welder for everything thin stainless, explaining to me that with stick-welding it can happen easily to make a hole because welding-rods don't come extremely thin. TIG-welding is done with a tungston-tip sitting in a holder where the gas comes out and you feed a thin stainless wire with your other hand to melt and do the weld. I don't remember exactly, but I think the gas which he used was Argon or a mixture. Not sure now.
    The other type of welding using gas would be MIG. Imagine a drum with thin wire on it, the wire gets fed through a tip in the holder where the gas-flame joins it. The mixture of gas for this was something different, which I don't remember. I've never seen Alec using MIG for stainless, but I think I heard that there does exist stainless wire drums for MIG. Anyway, I can imagine your friends were talking TIG?

    However, the blueish discolouration you usually get rid of by applying acid to the weld, leave it on there for a bit and then wash it off. Well, at least this is what Alec was doing all the time.
    OK, you covered it pretty accurately. The gas mix is something you look up when you need it. MIG is very versatile and great for production. TIG is much cleaner than stick and in my limited experience, easier than gas or stick. Welding is a skill and takes a knack. It takes a long time to develop the reflexes. When I took a welding class at a local community college, I learned why it is worth paying someone else so much to weld for me. I am a customer, not a welder. I know the metallurgy, but the connection between the hind brain and the hands will take too long to develop. So what useful contribution can I make? There are low carbon stainless grades that are better for welding. The carbon can cause corrosion in a narrow line next to the weld bead called weld decay.

    You really need to clean the area adjacent to the weld. NO zinc for an inch or so. Clean stainless steel brushes for stainless or aluminum. Clean means that you never use them on another metal.

    You have a stick welder. It can be converted to MIG, but there is some question as to whether it is worth the price for the conversion. You need to read more than I have.
    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...ersion-132062/ Post #7 is encouraging.
    http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...-to-tig-welder

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    OK, did some more research. Carbon is a conductor and reacts with SS and all kind of metals, SS can actually destroy the carbon. Now this not what I want.

    Aramid to the contrary is non conductive. I found an article where there was stated "strong acids can cause substantial loss of strength" - which in theory should not be an issue where I intend to use it. It also said in this article that "the aromatic nature of para-aramid is responsible for oxidative reactions when exposed to UV-light, that leads to a change in colour and loss of some strength" which means it needs to be protected from UV - again no issue where and how I would like to use it. Now there is one thing they stated under thermal properties "Aramid fibres do not melt in the conventional sense but decompose simultaneously" - I assume this decomposition-process only happens in connection with heat!???

    The whole article can be found here http://www.aramid.eu/characteristics.html and I do have the impression that Aramid would be quite suitable.

    Now on to the next subject: how I can get the material to spread the loads evenly between the bolts ...
    Carbon is a conductor and acts like a very noble metal. It is cathodic to all metals and the stainless is corroded, not the carbon. There are a few oddballs like titanium that can be passivated by a more noble metal so they are compatible with carbon.
    Aramid is a type of Nylon. Aromatic means that there are six carbon loops in the molecules with three double bonds (benzene rings). Smaller aromatic compounds (essential oils) smell. The rings make aramids strong and heat resistant, but less resistant to UV than straight chain Nylons. And yes, it take a lot of heat to break down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Before welding everything from as thin as an aircraft fuselage to as thick as a tanker hull was riveted.
    Well yes, but for ship construction welding proved faster, less expensive and more reliable. Aircraft on the other hand are built with heat treated aluminum alloys that are severely weakend by the welding heat. The only welded aircraft skin that I am aware of was friction stir welded.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Thanks jim !
    I'm at 39 37 N. I've just checked in OpenCPN. In USA it would be New Jersey ...
    Right now, as soon as the sun comes out it's still lovely & just right for shorts & flipflops with a body-warmer for when the fog comes down again (as long as one is sheltered from the wind), but around 5 pm jeans & socks have to come out.
    More like San Francisco, but not exactly. The major ocean currents warm west coasts more so than east coasts. in the northern hemisphere
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