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Thread: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

  1. #386
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Thank you so much jim! Well, in my case I can use both sides nearly equal, hardly any difference even when writing. And, actually really happy that all the sharpening is done for the moment - if we don't mention the chisel I hit a nail with the other day with a little bit too much force lol*! Surprisingly enough, I can notice a really significant difference with how long they manage to hold their blade after my session with the japanese water stones. Sure, I was hoping there would be a difference. But this is a big one and I'm very very happy about it!

    Well, initially he was talking about 2 entire weeks without moving a finger. We'll see how it goes. I had Friday, Monday and today, each 2 hour-sessions, and already down from 8 to 1 Ibuprofene and capable to turn my head towards the left shoulder without crying out in agony. Would be nice if progress should keep on going like this ... fingers crossed !!!
    Dody I suspect you know this, but the point where you start to feel better is the hardest because you want to be working but you really need to wait it out. That's my problem. I always overdo it as soon as the pain starts to go away without letting things fully heal. Take it easy! Better to let a few more days go by and be able to work all winter than re-injure it and be back where you started.
    - Chris

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Dody I suspect you know this, but the point where you start to feel better is the hardest because you want to be working but you really need to wait it out. That's my problem. I always overdo it as soon as the pain starts to go away without letting things fully heal. Take it easy! Better to let a few more days go by and be able to work all winter than re-injure it and be back where you started.
    Gosh, yes, Chris, it's absolutely the same problem with me and it's so very difficult to overcome!!!
    Fortunately it's a tiny fishing-community here, and for survival out at sea they know it's very important to stick together and care about each other. After it happened they all came and said "don't do it again, next time please ask me to give you a hand!" and of course now they are all watching out that I'm not doing the stupid thing, especially after one of them also had to see the physiotherapist and got told that I'm not supposed to move a finger ...

    It really makes sense, and I'll try my very best but I can tell you it's hard!!!
    Last edited by Dody; 10-10-2017 at 08:54 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  3. #388
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Just wanted to let you know how far we got with the chainplates:

    Chainplate-update I

    We've come to the conclusion that we have to discard the idea of ALL-composite chainplates for Tonga.

    The idea of all-composite chainplates works certainly well on fibreglass-boats, especially when integrated in the whole system with a new-build. In these cases the composite chainplates become an integral part of the whole system, especially as the material surrounding them is of identical or nearly identical make and origin with fairly equal behaviour under all circumstances.

    This is not the case on Tonga. To start with Tonga is not a fibreglass-boat (and not a new-build fibreglass-boat either), but wood, plywood and fibreglass, where the fibreglass is mainly used for sealing. All these materials are far too different in their behaviour to guarantee a composite chainplate to be and stay an integral part of the whole system for many years to come.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    in that case i think you could use the proper stainless or maybe galv again but this time have it riveted and not welded as nick suggested. ought to last at least a hundred years like that. or maybe welded and riveted?

    jim

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Thanks jim! We're still at it. However the outcome, if it has to be metal I'm inclined to use galvi or stainless - still doing some research. Welding in this case I would only like to do if both are the same material as otherwhise it's always asking for trouble. Concerning rivets, to be honest, I've got no idea yet what kind of maximum thickness one could rivet together, so, as it would be sealed from the outside I would actually prefer bolts.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Thanks jim! We're still at it. However the outcome, if it has to be metal I'm inclined to use galvi or stainless - still doing some research. Welding in this case I would only like to do if both are the same material as otherwhise it's always asking for trouble. Concerning rivets, to be honest, I've got no idea yet what kind of maximum thickness one could rivet together, so, as it would be sealed from the outside I would actually prefer bolts.
    I have a few friends that are very good welders and they tell me welding stainless is done with stainless welding rods or wire. Where the stainless is decorative they have to use a gas to keep it from turning black n blue but experience welders know this

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Not sure, Denise. Alec, my ex, used his TIG-welder for everything thin stainless, explaining to me that with stick-welding it can happen easily to make a hole because welding-rods don't come extremely thin. TIG-welding is done with a tungston-tip sitting in a holder where the gas comes out and you feed a thin stainless wire with your other hand to melt and do the weld. I don't remember exactly, but I think the gas which he used was Argon or a mixture. Not sure now.
    The other type of welding using gas would be MIG. Imagine a drum with thin wire on it, the wire gets fed through a tip in the holder where the gas-flame joins it. The mixture of gas for this was something different, which I don't remember. I've never seen Alec using MIG for stainless, but I think I heard that there does exist stainless wire drums for MIG. Anyway, I can imagine your friends were talking TIG?

    However, the blueish discolouration you usually get rid of by applying acid to the weld, leave it on there for a bit and then wash it off. Well, at least this is what Alec was doing all the time.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Thanks jim! We're still at it. However the outcome, if it has to be metal I'm inclined to use galvi or stainless - still doing some research. Welding in this case I would only like to do if both are the same material as otherwhise it's always asking for trouble. Concerning rivets, to be honest, I've got no idea yet what kind of maximum thickness one could rivet together, so, as it would be sealed from the outside I would actually prefer bolts.
    Before welding everything from as thin as an aircraft fuselage to as thick as a tanker hull was riveted.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Not sure, Denise. Alec, my ex, used his TIG-welder for everything thin stainless, explaining to me that with stick-welding it can happen easily to make a hole because welding-rods don't come extremely thin. TIG-welding is done with a tungston-tip sitting in a holder where the gas comes out and you feed a thin stainless wire with your other hand to melt and do the weld. I don't remember exactly, but I think the gas which he used was Argon or a mixture. Not sure now.
    The other type of welding using gas would be MIG. Imagine a drum with thin wire on it, the wire gets fed through a tip in the holder where the gas-flame joins it. The mixture of gas for this was something different, which I don't remember. I've never seen Alec using MIG for stainless, but I think I heard that there does exist stainless wire drums for MIG. Anyway, I can imagine your friends were talking TIG?

    However, the blueish discolouration you usually get rid of by applying acid to the weld, leave it on there for a bit and then wash it off. Well, at least this is what Alec was doing all the time.
    You described it much more eloquently than I did Dody! of all the things I can do welding is not one of them! I tried!

    I designed the wheeled steerable cradle that we used under my boat. But I only did a little bit of the welding on it and had it done over by one of the guys that know how to weld.



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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    You described it much more eloquently than I did Dody! of all the things I can do welding is not one of them! I tried!

    I designed the wheeled steerable cradle that we used under my boat. But I only did a little bit of the welding on it and had it done over by one of the guys that know how to weld.



    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Thanks Denise! You see, I've got a stick-welder, came with the boat. Alec's opinion about it was that it's a very good one, but, compared to the new ones, extremeley heavy. I always wanted to give it a go but it never happened. I did a few test-runs with one of Alec's stick-welders, but that was it. I do want to learn how to use it one day, but, for reliable and continous good results people have to accept that it takes about a year to learn it properly. Well, that at least seems to be the general opinion and I'm convinced there is a lot of truth in it. Right now I haven't got a year to spend on learning how to weld but want to see progress on Tonga. For the few occasions where I need welding to be done Alec is still around and Leandro, so for the moment I can get away without !
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Before welding everything from as thin as an aircraft fuselage to as thick as a tanker hull was riveted.
    Ay, Nick, you are right, of course!!! When jim mentioned rivets, somehow I automatically switched to this modern type of rivets people would use on their aluminium-masts etc., but that can't be the same thing. What materials were they made from, and would they be used like copper-rivets, installing a rove on the inside and then, with 2 people, one outside one inside banging the inside tip flat to grip against the rove and pull it all together?
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Ay, Nick, you are right, of course!!! When jim mentioned rivets, somehow I automatically switched to this modern type of rivets people would use on their aluminium-masts etc., but that can't be the same thing. What materials were they made from, and would they be used like copper-rivets, installing a rove on the inside and then, with 2 people, one outside one inside banging the inside tip flat to grip against the rove and pull it all together?
    This is the heavy end.


    For your stuff you need galvo wire nails, cut so that 3mm protrudes through the work rivetted over with a ball pein hammer. Then paint the cut end with zinc rich paint.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  13. #398
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Take care of that shoulder! You have my sympathy. This concludes the useful portion of this post.

    I haven't commented in a while since there isn't much that Nick and company haven't covered. I might have commented on the composite chain plates, but not without reading a bit more to confirm or trash my opinions, and that is now a moot point. So The rest is some minor commentary on some of the details, and the usefulness decreases as you read down the page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Not sure, Denise. Alec, my ex, used his TIG-welder for everything thin stainless, explaining to me that with stick-welding it can happen easily to make a hole because welding-rods don't come extremely thin. TIG-welding is done with a tungston-tip sitting in a holder where the gas comes out and you feed a thin stainless wire with your other hand to melt and do the weld. I don't remember exactly, but I think the gas which he used was Argon or a mixture. Not sure now.
    The other type of welding using gas would be MIG. Imagine a drum with thin wire on it, the wire gets fed through a tip in the holder where the gas-flame joins it. The mixture of gas for this was something different, which I don't remember. I've never seen Alec using MIG for stainless, but I think I heard that there does exist stainless wire drums for MIG. Anyway, I can imagine your friends were talking TIG?

    However, the blueish discolouration you usually get rid of by applying acid to the weld, leave it on there for a bit and then wash it off. Well, at least this is what Alec was doing all the time.
    OK, you covered it pretty accurately. The gas mix is something you look up when you need it. MIG is very versatile and great for production. TIG is much cleaner than stick and in my limited experience, easier than gas or stick. Welding is a skill and takes a knack. It takes a long time to develop the reflexes. When I took a welding class at a local community college, I learned why it is worth paying someone else so much to weld for me. I am a customer, not a welder. I know the metallurgy, but the connection between the hind brain and the hands will take too long to develop. So what useful contribution can I make? There are low carbon stainless grades that are better for welding. The carbon can cause corrosion in a narrow line next to the weld bead called weld decay.

    You really need to clean the area adjacent to the weld. NO zinc for an inch or so. Clean stainless steel brushes for stainless or aluminum. Clean means that you never use them on another metal.

    You have a stick welder. It can be converted to MIG, but there is some question as to whether it is worth the price for the conversion. You need to read more than I have.
    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...ersion-132062/ Post #7 is encouraging.
    http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...-to-tig-welder

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    OK, did some more research. Carbon is a conductor and reacts with SS and all kind of metals, SS can actually destroy the carbon. Now this not what I want.

    Aramid to the contrary is non conductive. I found an article where there was stated "strong acids can cause substantial loss of strength" - which in theory should not be an issue where I intend to use it. It also said in this article that "the aromatic nature of para-aramid is responsible for oxidative reactions when exposed to UV-light, that leads to a change in colour and loss of some strength" which means it needs to be protected from UV - again no issue where and how I would like to use it. Now there is one thing they stated under thermal properties "Aramid fibres do not melt in the conventional sense but decompose simultaneously" - I assume this decomposition-process only happens in connection with heat!???

    The whole article can be found here http://www.aramid.eu/characteristics.html and I do have the impression that Aramid would be quite suitable.

    Now on to the next subject: how I can get the material to spread the loads evenly between the bolts ...
    Carbon is a conductor and acts like a very noble metal. It is cathodic to all metals and the stainless is corroded, not the carbon. There are a few oddballs like titanium that can be passivated by a more noble metal so they are compatible with carbon.
    Aramid is a type of Nylon. Aromatic means that there are six carbon loops in the molecules with three double bonds (benzene rings). Smaller aromatic compounds (essential oils) smell. The rings make aramids strong and heat resistant, but less resistant to UV than straight chain Nylons. And yes, it take a lot of heat to break down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Before welding everything from as thin as an aircraft fuselage to as thick as a tanker hull was riveted.
    Well yes, but for ship construction welding proved faster, less expensive and more reliable. Aircraft on the other hand are built with heat treated aluminum alloys that are severely weakend by the welding heat. The only welded aircraft skin that I am aware of was friction stir welded.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Thanks jim !
    I'm at 39 37 N. I've just checked in OpenCPN. In USA it would be New Jersey ...
    Right now, as soon as the sun comes out it's still lovely & just right for shorts & flipflops with a body-warmer for when the fog comes down again (as long as one is sheltered from the wind), but around 5 pm jeans & socks have to come out.
    More like San Francisco, but not exactly. The major ocean currents warm west coasts more so than east coasts. in the northern hemisphere
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    It wasn't the plan, but lucky me caught my yearly cold so the last days were spent between bed and physiotherapy and too weak for anything else. Even serious reading was out of the question, so I just enjoyed some old sea-stories from 1650 - 1750 about the pirates of the Spanish Main told by eyewitnesses which I very much enjoyed! Now that the energy is slowly coming back and me still out of action with my shoulder, I'm starting to struggle in keeping still.

    Sorry Nick and Dave for the delay!


    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    This is the heavy end.


    For your stuff you need galvo wire nails, cut so that 3mm protrudes through the work rivetted over with a ball pein hammer. Then paint the cut end with zinc rich paint.
    Awesome stuff Nick, I really like watching what and how they managed to do things in these days! Seeing this, it is even the more surprising for me that from time to time they actually managed to pop some of these rivets out at sea, unbelievable!!! I read somewhere that they applied some tarred stuff between where the sheets overlap and are riveted to keep water from coming in. Now I am wondering if this was just a myth, because with the red hot steel going into place, it would just burn away, wouldn't it?

    Using 3 mm galvi wire nails for the riveting I guess I would need a lot of them to be up for the job. Going thicker will probably not be possible unless I can solve it hydraulically. Maybe then, welding is not such a bad idea after all? Or back to bolts and nuts? Glad I've still got some time left to work it all out!
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Take care of that shoulder! You have my sympathy. This concludes the useful portion of this post.

    I haven't commented in a while since there isn't much that Nick and company haven't covered. I might have commented on the composite chain plates, but not without reading a bit more to confirm or trash my opinions, and that is now a moot point. So The rest is some minor commentary on some of the details, and the usefulness decreases as you read down the page.



    OK, you covered it pretty accurately. The gas mix is something you look up when you need it. MIG is very versatile and great for production. TIG is much cleaner than stick and in my limited experience, easier than gas or stick. Welding is a skill and takes a knack. It takes a long time to develop the reflexes. When I took a welding class at a local community college, I learned why it is worth paying someone else so much to weld for me. I am a customer, not a welder. I know the metallurgy, but the connection between the hind brain and the hands will take too long to develop. So what useful contribution can I make? There are low carbon stainless grades that are better for welding. The carbon can cause corrosion in a narrow line next to the weld bead called weld decay.

    You really need to clean the area adjacent to the weld. NO zinc for an inch or so. Clean stainless steel brushes for stainless or aluminum. Clean means that you never use them on another metal.

    You have a stick welder. It can be converted to MIG, but there is some question as to whether it is worth the price for the conversion. You need to read more than I have.
    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...ersion-132062/ Post #7 is encouraging.
    http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...-to-tig-welder



    Carbon is a conductor and acts like a very noble metal. It is cathodic to all metals and the stainless is corroded, not the carbon. There are a few oddballs like titanium that can be passivated by a more noble metal so they are compatible with carbon.
    Aramid is a type of Nylon. Aromatic means that there are six carbon loops in the molecules with three double bonds (benzene rings). Smaller aromatic compounds (essential oils) smell. The rings make aramids strong and heat resistant, but less resistant to UV than straight chain Nylons. And yes, it take a lot of heat to break down.


    Well yes, but for ship construction welding proved faster, less expensive and more reliable. Aircraft on the other hand are built with heat treated aluminum alloys that are severely weakend by the welding heat. The only welded aircraft skin that I am aware of was friction stir welded.

    More like San Francisco, but not exactly. The major ocean currents warm west coasts more so than east coasts. in the northern hemisphere
    Thank you Dave and really happy that you are back!

    I like your wealth of background information and your very detailed research. It is not "only" very useful but very interesting also. For me, and I'm sure for others too.

    This website where weld decay is explained, is really interesting, going through it bit by bit at the moment to find out more. Friends of mine, after they capsized off the Falklands with their previous boat, bought a steel-hull in South Africa, convinced she only needed sandblasting, painting, roughly fitting her out and be ready to go. What they didn't know but found out short afterwards was, that something had gone terribly wrong with the welding. Nick got himself a welder (for which he had to invent a cooling-mechanism as it would stop caused by overheating all the time) quickly taught himself to weld and started the major task of re-doing every single weld on the ship. The family was 3 kids by now, living in a caravan next to the boat on a farm. After 3 years it was achieved and some paint was on when the authorities decided they wouldn't prolong their visas again and it was time for them to leave. They chucked the boat in the water, 2 nitrogen filled masts went on, matrasses on the hull as there wasn't a floor yet, all their belongings in cardbord boxes and off they went to continue fitting her out with their next stops somewhere (http://www.yachtmollymawk.com). They've just spent 3 years in Patagonia and are now in Valdivia/Chile for their first haulout after more than 10 years ... This is just to say: so many things can go wrong with welding!

    Also on this website I found an explanation for intergranular corrosion, something I noticed on some fittings aft on my toerail.

    For myself I like more playing with wood, and I think I will prefer paying others for good results in welding, same as you. Still, it's important to be aware how and what they are doing and every bit of information can make a big difference. When the guy in Alcobaca had finished my ruddertube he told me to have it welded in very carefully. Only 3 tiny welds, then let it completely cool off, then again 3 tiny welds - this is to prevent it to change shape with the heat of the welding. Now the guy welding the ruddertube in place for me was aware of that this can happen, still, he would have done it much much faster if I wouldn't have constantly slowed him down. "But it's all time you've got to pay!!!" - yes, I know, but I don't want any distortion ... result was that I don't have any distortion on the ruddertube.

    And with the weather, certainly not exactly. But then Portugal is west-coast as well, and the warm part of the gulf-stream, which separates somewhere up north, goes past Ireland and then comes down the coast of Portugal so there is quite some similarities.



    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Dody, your thread has gone far beyond the point where I can comment usefully (if I ever could!) but just want to say I hope you recover from your cold soon. And maybe it's good to have that out of the way while you are laid up with a bad shoulder as well.
    - Chris

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    You mentioned sealing and rivets popping.

    The rivets on the Titanic may have failed because they were cold. Steel and iron that is very tough at room temperature can become brittle near 0°C and below. The temperature where a steel becomes brittle is the ductile brittle transition temperature (DBTT). This was not a known problem until the Schenectady[picture], a Liberty Ship broke in half at the dock during WWII. NIST examined some of the rivets and found that the steel (wrought iron?) was susceptible. https://www.nist.gov/publications/me...gy-rms-titanic The great molasses flood of 1919 in Boston was another case of DBTT.

    Sealing, I thought that tar sounded pretty reasonable. Apparently it was not used: https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.or...-plates.17482/

    EDIT: Better Titanic link http://ws680.nist.gov/publication/ge...?pub_id=852863 There are pictures of other ships with failed rivets.
    Last edited by MN Dave; 10-21-2017 at 04:29 PM.
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post


    Awesome stuff Nick, I really like watching what and how they managed to do things in these days! Seeing this, it is even the more surprising for me that from time to time they actually managed to pop some of these rivets out at sea, unbelievable!!! I read somewhere that they applied some tarred stuff between where the sheets overlap and are riveted to keep water from coming in. Now I am wondering if this was just a myth, because with the red hot steel going into place, it would just burn away, wouldn't it?
    Nothing between the plates, but caulkers made the seam tight by driving a bead of steel from the lapping plate into the lap.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Dody, your thread has gone far beyond the point where I can comment usefully (if I ever could!) but just want to say I hope you recover from your cold soon. And maybe it's good to have that out of the way while you are laid up with a bad shoulder as well.
    Thanks Chris, I thought it is a pretty good thing too. Well, not that I like feeling miserable, but accidentally combining both and be done with it, not risking to move when I shouldn't and couldn't makes it fairly easy to give my shoulder time to heal.
    And concerning the subject, it's fun and interesting to talk about it and admits glimpses into aspects of boatbuilding we normally don't get any information about and don't get involved with. But then each one of us might find oneself on the wrong side of a reef one day, having to invent something and that might be exactly the moment when stuff like this comes in very handy .
    However, don't worry, we'll soon be moving back to wooden boat subjects and I'm looking very much forward to your more than welcome thoughts, ideas, hints, suggestions, criticism and support or whatever comes to your mind. Or just come and play with us and enjoy the moment, we all need some smiles on our faces from time to time, me included !
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  20. #405
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Dave and Nick, this is so awsome, thank you! And Dave, these photos, I've never seen something like it, really impressive!

    I didn't know anything about the technical aspects causing the rivets to pop and, till today, it was quite a mystery to me.

    Yes, sure, everyone has heard of the Titanic, although in my ignorance I didn't actually trace it back to failing rivets but to the damage of the steel itself when hitting the iceberg with full power, and from my own experience I know at least what rocks can do to a steel-hull (although I've been to Cobh which was the last port of the Titanic before she hit, I've just read a story where it is claimed to have happened on the way back from the "new world" - but I seem to remember there was another accident with a sister-ship as well).

    When talking about rivets popping, I was actually referring to stories of whalers, cargo- and passenger-vessels from around the turn of the century I was reading not long ago. What was also frequently mentioned in these books was the "moaning" of the whole structure in a seaway causing the crews to get seriously concerned which, I must admit, I would find pretty scary myself! Funny enough, just today I found an article by Harry Benford, describing the whole process of riveting, and towards the end of the article he mentions that every new-built ship had to be "broken in" and he relates to something Kipling has said that the groaning and straining wouldn't go away later, but the noise was not so loud or squeaky in tone any more.

    However, he also describes in this article the process of caulking (didn't see the fullering though), but says that sometimes it was still impossible to achieve watertightness and "in these cases soft materials, such as canvas soaked in white lead paint, were applied to the faying (overlapping) surfaces" and "In other cases injector guns were used to force thick red lead paint, or thin putty, into troublesome seams". Just in case someone might be interested, the article can be found here (https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitst...pdf?sequence=1).
    Last edited by Dody; 10-21-2017 at 12:51 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    How are you and Tonga doing Dody? I hope you have recovered from both your injured shoulder and your cold!
    - Chris

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    How are you and Tonga doing Dody? I hope you have recovered from both your injured shoulder and your cold!
    Thank you heaps Chris for asking!

    This was (and still is) pants. We treated the torn muscle with physiotherapy. Did help quite a lot, but some of the pain wouldn't go away, so I wanted to see an Orthopedist. This is Portugal with only 11 Million inhabitants, the specialists drive all over the county to see their patients, which means you've got to be patient (is it that why they call them patients???) and wait for appointments. 2 weeks down the line, x-rays done, with my second visit we found out more and the news isn't promising. One of the bones of my cervical spine is in a wrong position and the disc below is in bad shape, also Arthrosis. We're gonna try with all kinds of physiotherapy, heat, anti-inflammatories, cream and, and that's the worst, NO physical labor. Well, for sure not lifting anything above 10 KG. Both, the Orthopedist and the Physiotherapist advised me to take it very serious.

    However, after years and years of only talking and thinking and living boat I took a tiny little break. Now, I shouldn't have done that, mischief is lurking ... I have to admit that I bought a car!!!

    You might wonder what's all this about? Well, when you are sailing, a car is something you really don't want to have. It's a constant worry where to leave it behind, how to collect it and actually why bother? When I ordered my last car in 1993, a Toyota MR2 with a year delivery-time, I swore to myself that this is the last car I will ever buy in my life - with the view of living aboard some years later. The car got delivered in March 1994, we had great fun together, and I sold it when Tonga and I were in Spain in 2006, he's now happily living in Sweden.

    Re-building Tonga, I have to admit, is quite difficult without a car, especially getting the materials to the ship, and a usual 1 hour roundtrip by car suddenly takes a whole day with public transport. So, as I had nothing else to do, I bought a car. He's also from March 1994 with nearly 300.000 km on the clock, 1.6 L, 102 HP 4-cylinder gasoline and GPL (GPL is not working at the moment). The engine runs like the clappers and purrs like a happy cat, there is no rust as in Europe this was the first model ever to be built with a hot-dipped galvanized chassis, the interior was well looked after, but a few technical issues need sorting. Secondhand cars in Portugal are quite expensive. I got this one for 900 Euros and I'm not complaining. It's 4 wheels with an engine and a roof over my head.

    After I had all the lights working and the central locking I went up to the garage to have the distribution-belt, and some fanbelts replaced, oil- and filter changed, the sensor for the water temperature and I'm good to go. Without heating in the cabin at the moment, but everything at it's time :-D! And that's how he looks like:



    Although I'm still not at ease with myself about breaking my oath, it's great! Just hop in and drive to the North-Beach to watch the waves or, when the winter-storms will be coming, for example this little Tunnel in San Martinho do Porto, the one where the waves wash through on a rough day and you run for dear life, can't wait, it's really good fun!

    Promising myself to do things slowly and very gentle, it wasn't possible for me to sit around any longer and see the lovely weather go by unused. So, I started again. Worse even, when about a week ago I saw 50 Knots of wind in the forecast for tomorrow night, followed by heavy rainfall. Of course I did too much on Sunday ... but the good news is that another piece of my deck is in place !!!

    Still got to do some protective plastic sheeting tomorrow morning, but we're fairly ready for whatever is to come, x your fingers for us please!

    Took some photos from the process and will post them tomorrow.
    Last edited by Dody; 11-21-2017 at 04:17 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    ^^^ Well, I'm sorry about your shoulder Dody. I hope the doctors are able to get it sorted. I've been dealing with a bad elbow for some time now myself. Finally went to the doctor and he prescribed physical therapy. Which, as it turns out, involves lifting weights! They didn't make me swear off of boat work fortunately, but it still hurts like heck if I overdo it. Which I always do. It's giving me fits right now in fact, since I spent the morning moving my new bandsaw into the basement. Ugh.

    I like your car though! Audi 90 Avant? We didn't get those in the US. Too bad, as I think one would make a great around town/boat gear hauler. And 900 euros sounds like a pretty good deal to me for a running, driveable car. Nice!
    - Chris

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Thanks Chris! Nearly right, it's an Audi 80. To be honest, I haven't looked up the diffence between the two.

    Hope you get your elbow sorted soon. These things are so annoying, but lucky you are ordered to do something, getting jealous, really ! Busy trying to catch up on your thread at the moment, lots has happened there and I'm only at page 50, the one with the beamshelf. But looks like tomorrow is just the right day to sit cozy and warm in front of the computer, let the wind howl outside and the rain beat around as much as he wants.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    ^^^ Yes, the Audi 80 and 90 are basically the same car. Different engine options mostly. I like it in any case! And yes, things have been moving kinda fast on the Petrel thread as I have been working through some further thoughts on the cabin layout. Still not sure where things will end up but I'd welcome your comments.
    - Chris

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    Life is short. Go boating now!

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    As I said, I can't do much and have to stop immediately once the pain comes back, which makes progress even slower. But, if you insist, you'll get there one day ... I had to suffer 4 weeks of not doing anything, and I just couldn't stand it any more.

    So, bit by bit, I cleaned up the beamshelf and did the last adjustments to the new batten on top, all got painted, the batten installed with bedding compound below, then all mating surfaces painted and, as it's easier and the mess is less when the deck is still missing, the inner side of the beamshelf got a coat of white.

    IMG_8760.jpg

    With the last knees I made, I had also cut the next two sheets for the sidedeck to measure. With every coat of varnish that went on the knees, I also did one on the underside of the ply, which means the side one will see from the cabin. AND, most important, I varnished the edges. I've seen far too much damaged, destroyed and/or crumbling plywood in my life, mainly caused by the edges not sealed, I never ever want to see something like that again!

    Next step was to apply the bedding-compound

    IMG_8764.jpg

    IMG_8765.jpg

    And of course I forgot the outside edge!!! It doesn't matter that much, as in this area I've got to replace some from the outside, so I'll be able to do something about it later. Trying to get it in, at the last minute, I remembered I'll make a huge mess if I haven't got a second pair of hands as the sheet has to be fed in underneath the edge of the deckbeam at the end of the cockpit. Lucky me, one of my neighbours could just drop everything for a minute and give me a hand. That's the trouble when you prepare things long before you actually install them. However, it went in without problems. Now it needs screwing onto the deckbeams, the beamshelf and the carlin.

    IMG_8767.jpg

    IMG_8768.jpg

    I would prefer to use proper woodscrews, but I had run out of them long ago and wasn't able to find a replacement. The ply is only 12 mm thick, it's 6 mm screws, so the actual shaft would only do something in a tiny area of the hole. I hope it's okay. All my screws go in with bedding-compound on them. Not that it really matters in this area as water will (hopefully) never be able to reach there, but the screw goes in easier and, wherever one needs to take one out later it helps a lot.

    End part I
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  27. #412
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    It was already dark when I had finished, but it was in!

    IMG_8769.jpg

    Next day cleanup and I applied filler over the screw-holes

    IMG_8775.jpg

    IMG_8774.jpg

    The next day when it had cured it was sanding-time. And then the last step: apply Epoxy on the top of the sheet to make sure it stays dry & watertight till the next one on top goes in!

    IMG_8778.jpg

    IMG_8779.jpg

    And done! Not that it really makes a difference concerning shelter, but the gutter-type-addition I installed at the end of my tent doesn't work as perfect as I wanted, and with lots of rain I always had rain coming in at that spot.

    However, got the whole stern covered up in plastic this morning before physiotherapy, and, if the weather does what the forecast told him, I'll be able to know more tomorrow.
    Last edited by Dody; 11-22-2017 at 04:27 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    ^^^ Yes, the Audi 80 and 90 are basically the same car. Different engine options mostly. I like it in any case! And yes, things have been moving kinda fast on the Petrel thread as I have been working through some further thoughts on the cabin layout. Still not sure where things will end up but I'd welcome your comments.
    I like it too and am quite happy about how useful it turned out to be. Folding the backseats down and the passenger-seat away gives quite a lot of space to transport stuff, should actually measure where this gets me. And super-easy to manoeuvre, good turning-radius too. Got into a parking-space today where I thought no, that's by far too tight, but 3 times back and forward and I was in.

    Yes, quite fast! A lot of thinking going on and a lot of input. Thanks! It's quite a bit to catch up for me, but I'm making notes while reading. It's not good to comment on something that's sorted, but there is some additional infos which weren't mentioned but might be useful.

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    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Deck looks good Dody. Maybe a coat of primer or paint for UV protection over the epoxy?
    - Chris

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    Life is short. Go boating now!

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Thanks Chris, good thinking! But no, the sun has lost a lot of strength this time of the year, and I've found out over the years that, while Epoxy is certainly critical about UV, it's not that critical and can take quite a lot more than I expected initially. It won't be very long till the next 3 layers are gonna get laminated into place (well, hopefully!) and whatever I would add as UV-protection would have to come off again (without leaving a trace of course!!!) which would be a lot of unnecessary extra-work. I was slowly working my way aft this way with all the deck that's already been done, and it has worked great for me. Sure, if you're doing the work with several people it wouldn't be very economical doing it step by step as I'm doing it. One would probably try to cut all sheets as accurate as possible, and then keep on banging them all in. Sheets would get mixed up by accident, might not fit properly because each layer is a tiny bit different and and and.

    I would actually like, as the next step, to laminate the 3 next layers in. Well, not now that it's raining of course. Got to have a look in my workshop if I've still got offcuts big enough I can use, otherwhise I'll have to start a whole new sheet and with my neck-problem I would prefer to wait a few more days before handling that.

    And if a whole new sheet, it would be clever to use it in it's entire length which means the one behind this one should be in place as well. I don't know if it matters. Probably not, as I'm Epoxy-filler-glueing the sheets in and staggering the joints. A smaller sheet is easier to handle. But something inside me tells me the less joints there are, the stronger the entire thing. Don't know!

    It is completely ready to go in, still need to get some things done before that. The next set of knees (the one where the chainplates are) are ready, well, the last coat of varnish is missing on the outer side. Need to replace the under-construction there, I've got to do a repair on the last deckbeam (which is prepared and will be a dutchman), make another new batten for the beamshelf, paint, and it could go in.

    Will have a look tomorrow

    By the way, I'm at page 54 in your thread now. Awesome, you got yourself a table-saw! I haven't got one, but Albertino left his bandsaw under my boat and mentioned that I can use it, so, I guess, this will do for the moment. It's under a tarpaulin, still have to figure out how it works, but I guess it will be a big help.
    Last edited by Dody; 11-23-2017 at 04:45 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  31. #416
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    All snug now for the rain and a tiny admission for wind ...













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    Last edited by Dody; 11-23-2017 at 03:48 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    And these 2 pictures ☺






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    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    And these 2 pictures ☺






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    Lady looking good with her new tail!

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    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Its good to see that progress is ongoing.Just be careful about overdoing things.

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    😃 Thanks Denise!

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    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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