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Thread: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

  1. #421
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    Thanks John! It makes life a bit difficult at the moment I have to admit!

    Sent from my SM-G900FD using Tapatalk
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  2. #422
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Deck and tent looking good Dody. And I missed that you had just laid the first of multiple layers on the deck. Makes sense to me!

  3. #423
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    Thanks Chris!!

    I wonder ...

    With the struggle concerning my neck and the shoulder at the moment, it would help me tremendously to deal with smaller sections of plywood for the next 3 layers (1.50 m lengthwise, something like 5 ft or so?) instead of 3 m (nearly 10 ft) on the sidedeck where I just installed the bottom-sheet.

    I'm Epoxy-filler-glueing them in place, the joints are staggered. And we're talking about 3 sheets of 6 mm ply (0.236 inch my unit-transformer tells me).

    What's your opinion strengthwise if I would use the shorter pieces? Would it make a difference?

    Sent from my SM-G900FD using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Dody; 11-23-2017 at 07:43 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  4. #424
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Thanks Chris!!

    I wonder ...

    With the struggle concerning my neck and the shoulder at the moment, it would help me tremendously to deal with smaller sections of plywood for the next 3 layers (1.50 m lengthwise, something like 5 ft or so?) instead of 3 m (nearly 10 ft) on the sidedeck where I just installed the bottom-sheet.

    I'm Epoxy-filler-glueing them in place, the joints are staggered. And we're talking about 3 sheets of 6 mm ply (0.236 inch my unit-transformer tells me).

    What's your opinion strengthwise if I would use the shorter pieces? Would it make a difference?

    Sent from my SM-G900FD using Tapatalk
    Hopefully someone with more experience that I have will chime in here Dody, but my opinion is that a decent scarf or lap joint (which I think includes your staggered joints) is just as strong as a longer sheet and there is no reason to wrestle with big sheets if you don't mind a bit of extra work in piecing it together. When we were working on Perihelion we were piecing in small sections into the deck out of necessity and I never had any thought that the result was any weaker for it. But I really don't have much knowledge here. There are many people on the forum who have worked extensively with plywood, epoxy and various joining techniques so I suspect you will get a better and more detailed answer soon.

  5. #425
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Thanks Chris!!

    I wonder ...

    With the struggle concerning my neck and the shoulder at the moment, it would help me tremendously to deal with smaller sections of plywood for the next 3 layers (1.50 m lengthwise, something like 5 ft or so?) instead of 3 m (nearly 10 ft) on the sidedeck where I just installed the bottom-sheet.

    I'm Epoxy-filler-glueing them in place, the joints are staggered. And we're talking about 3 sheets of 6 mm ply (0.236 inch my unit-transformer tells me).

    What's your opinion strengthwise if I would use the shorter pieces? Would it make a difference?

    Sent from my SM-G900FD using Tapatalk
    This is in this area?
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/attachme...382610&thumb=1
    The important layer is the bottom layer where there will be tension on the butt joints when you walk on the deck. The bottom layer joints generally need to be supported on frames, but with the short spans and four layers, you should have no problems even if the bottom joints were not well supported. The trade off here is between the sore shoulder, the weight and extra work of cutting more pieces. as long as the pieces of plywood are more than 20 times as long as they are thick, you are probably OK. (Wait, 6x20 is 120 mm? well I wouldn't recommend that short.)

    For applying epoxy evenly to large surfaces I like to use a notched trowel the same as when setting floor or wall tile. The notches control the thickness of the adhesive and the grooves let the air escape. The epoxy thickness will be about half of the notch depth, so a small notch is what you want. The principal is the same; https://www.thespruce.com/choosing-t...to-use-1822587
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  6. #426
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    This is in this area?
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/attachme...382610&thumb=1
    The important layer is the bottom layer where there will be tension on the butt joints when you walk on the deck. The bottom layer joints generally need to be supported on frames, but with the short spans and four layers, you should have no problems even if the bottom joints were not well supported. The trade off here is between the sore shoulder, the weight and extra work of cutting more pieces. as long as the pieces of plywood are more than 20 times as long as they are thick, you are probably OK. (Wait, 6x20 is 120 mm? well I wouldn't recommend that short.)

    For applying epoxy evenly to large surfaces I like to use a notched trowel the same as when setting floor or wall tile. The notches control the thickness of the adhesive and the grooves let the air escape. The epoxy thickness will be about half of the notch depth, so a small notch is what you want. The principal is the same; https://www.thespruce.com/choosing-t...to-use-1822587
    Yes Dave, it's exactly this area! The side-deckbeams are spaced about 50 cm, and the joints of the bottom-sheet are on the beams. I've had a look in my workshop and it looks like I've got enough to get 3 entire sheets in 1.50 m length out of what I call my offcuts (which actually is not offcuts, but leftovers from complete sheets). As 1.50 m is definitely much bigger than 120 mm, so that's a yes then and I'm gonna use them, awesome!

    Ah, whow, I've got one of these trowels, but, to be honest, I haven't used it yet. In the beginning I was using a smaller metal one with triangular teeth. That was working fine, but when reaching further aft and using entire sheets I needed one or 2 helpers, and at that time I couldn't get hold of a second and a third one. Well, Portugal is a smallish country and stock they have one day you suddenly can't find any more but maybe a year later. I came across the ones from West System and got me, I think, 10 or so of them, using the side with the biggest teeth.

    They look like this:

    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  7. #427
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Hi all, just wanted to let you know I'm back at it. Finally!

    It's been very tough on me having to stop completely for the sake of getting well again. To keep the itch of "cheating" (= doing stuff I shouldn't be doing) as low as possible I tried to keep my mind away from boat-related stuff, at least as far as building is concerned. Which means I didn't use the time to gather more information about how I'm gonna do what, and I kept far away from you guys and your lovely forum. I apologize to all of you and I hope you can forgive me, but I also hope you will understand that I had to do that for my own protection.

    Meanwhile the dislocated disc in my neck has stopped causing me big troubles, I hardly notice that there was a problem and feel much much much better. Only when I'm doing stuff where I need to keep my neck in the same position for a while (like working with the electric planer for example) I got to stop every now and again, do some exercises, and then get on with it. The other thing I'm still struggling with is to get my rhythm back. To overcome it I set the alarm every day (I always hated getting up early!!!), and am slowly getting there. Still, it feels like everything just takes ages .

    As the weather wasn't too inviting I started with making 2 new floors for the aftcabin, part of which I could do protected from the rains in my workshop.

    Just to let you know what I mean with taking ages ... the first one took me 3 weeks. No joking, 3 (three) weeks!!! I wanted it to fit the shape of the hull perfectly. When I finally had it all sorted I cleaned up the piece of wood with the electric planer only to find out that the plank had a damage from felling the tree on several spots, 2 of them on my newly made floor. So I had to do it all over again. Everybody else would probably have noticed the moment the timber was delivered and rejected the plank. Well, I seem to keep learning the hard way and I know now how to spot this ... The second floor took me 3 days including installing it.

    Right now I'm making a new sidedeck-beam for the portside. Albertino, the shipwright, was so nice to give me a matching lump of wood for my birthday present and I'm halfway through the job. Can't get on tomorrow as I don't want all the rain that's forecast in the aftcabin but it's looking good for Tuesday.

    Will send some pics soon.

    And, sorry again!
    Last edited by Dody; 06-10-2018 at 07:31 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  8. #428
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Welcome back Dody! Was wondering when we'd see you here again

  9. #429
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Glad to hear that you have recovered. I was worried about you after such a long hiatus.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  10. #430
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Welcome back Dody! Was wondering when we'd see you here again
    Thank you Chris! It's funny you're saying "when", it's so wonderfully positive !

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Glad to hear that you have recovered. I was worried about you after such a long hiatus.
    Thank you Dave! In between I got a bit of a scare. There are so many abandoned projects. I don't want Tonga to get one of them, I don't want to live in a house and I don't want to stop sailing. This is my choice of life, and Tonga is all I got left from 40 years of a working life. No way of selling her in the current state and no way of buying another boat to sail off with.

    Saying this, after having lost 5 months, I'll try to find affordable help. It's still a long way to go and I would like to get her in the water in 2 years time. Without interior. But like this I could do some sailing in her at the weekends and it just feels so much better being afloat again.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  11. #431
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Sooooo .... to start with, I've got a question.

    From the beginning I absolutely hated working with my circular saw, although, I must admit it turns out to be a useful tool. I'm still not capable to get it to work with a lot of accuracy, so I use it for the rough shaping and do the finetuning with the other tools. I guess I'm doing something wrong here but haven't got a clue what.

    Then, when starting to cut my Kamballa-planks in shape for the floors, there was smoke coming from the cut and the cut itself looked burned. This was the blade I used:

    1-20180406_123342.jpg

    I thought this might be the reason for it as I'm working with hardwood, so I bought a tungsten-tipped blade

    1-20180416_113822.jpg

    It got a lot better, but here and there I've still got some burn-marks. It doesn't matter that much for the final piece, as I always clean it up with the electric planer afterwards. Got to, because of my lack of accuracy I've got to stay a bit away from the place where I would like the cut to be.

    Now I am wondering if I am accidentally tilting the saw maybe from time to time? I know I can't do roundish cuts with a circular saw, but hardly any of the cuts I needed to do so far are straight cuts.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  12. #432
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    Welcome back! I would suggest blades with many less teeth on a circular saw.
    I'm guessing you get the burning when you're doing rip cuts? (Cutting long ways with the grain)
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  13. #433
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Thanks Denise!
    Well, it was not exctly along the grain, but in a slight angle of maybe around 25 degrees?

    Okay! I'll have to mailorder it, as I was checking all the shops in a circle of 40 km north and south and east, and the new one with 48 teeth was the only one in a decent quality I could find. How many teeth should I be looking for?
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  14. #434
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    For years I was on the impression that more teeth are better on saw blades. But as time has gone by, I've been going with less and less teeth, now even for fine woodworking I'll use 40 tooth saw blade, more often than not, I will use 24 tooth rip blades.
    Also unless you have very strong wrists and lots and lots of experience using hand-held circular saws it's always best to position the work so that wide part the sole plate rests on the stock and the cut off is under the narrow side of the sole plate. That is how the design of a hand-held circular saw works, it rests on the work, I'm left-handed so I'll get sawdust in my face unless I remind myself to use my right hand which I can and should for safety sake, but always favor the left.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Have you got , or have ever used a worm saw? More torque, less blade speed, saw blade is where you can see it, better ergonomics.

  16. #436
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    I think that your problem may be the blade. Not just the number of teeth (Denise is right about fewer teeth for faster cuts and ripping) but the rake or hook angle angle, tooth configuration, and since I am out of my depth, just read this http://www.rockler.com/how-to/blades-101/
    I think your blade model number is X15560-XJ (ebay link with a better picture) It has a negative hook angle, a 2.6mm kerf and Triple Chip Grind (TCG) teeth. The Rockler link above says it is for hard materials and plastics and that the hook angle is better for miter saws and radial arm saws. The hook angle is illustrated at the center of the picture. It is a good crosscut blade possibly for a different type of saw.

    I would look for a combination blade with fewer teeth, an aggressive hook angle and a thin kerf. Then I would get confused because none of the blades I find online have enough information and just buy something that said it was a combination blade. Everything I see is either in the UK or US, and I have no idea how to search for something available in Portugal. Where I live, I prefer the thin kerf Freud Diablo blades. They have a lot of laser cut details that make them a lot quieter.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  17. #437
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Have you got , or have ever used a worm saw? More torque, less blade speed, saw blade is where you can see it, better ergonomics.
    Wizbang, to be honest, I've never even heard of a worm saw before and had to look it up on internet! It does look like a great tool and I like it. For quite a while I am thinking of replacing my circular saw. The one I've got is just not right for me. I keep telling myself there is nothing wrong with it, it's just because you haven't been working enough with it, get used to it! But I had quite a few different models in my hand since, and they feel much better. I'll keep my eyes open, but this time I will first keep it in my hand for a while to see if it's better.

    That's the one I've got now:

    1-IMG_9024.jpg
    2-IMG_9025.jpg
    3-IMG_9026.jpg
    5-IMG_9028.jpg
    4-IMG_9027.jpg

    Actually, on a minuscule level, wouldn't this be the identical system as used on a worm saw: https://www.scheppach.com/product-de...W---89mm.aspx#

    It's only for smallish stuff of course, but I got me one of them a few weeks ago to cut the fibreglass and the ply off the hull. I had done that aft with an anglegrinder and a thin inox-disc, but it makes one hell of a dust and I can't limit the depth of the cut with the anglegrinder, so I slightly touched the planks in places.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  18. #438
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    For years I was on the impression that more teeth are better on saw blades. But as time has gone by, I've been going with less and less teeth, now even for fine woodworking I'll use 40 tooth saw blade, more often than not, I will use 24 tooth rip blades.
    Also unless you have very strong wrists and lots and lots of experience using hand-held circular saws it's always best to position the work so that wide part the sole plate rests on the stock and the cut off is under the narrow side of the sole plate. That is how the design of a hand-held circular saw works, it rests on the work, I'm left-handed so I'll get sawdust in my face unless I remind myself to use my right hand which I can and should for safety sake, but always favor the left.
    Thanks Denise, I will see what I can find, less teeth does make sense. MN Dave gave me some stuff to get through my head and I'll do some research later.

    And yes, I was trying hard to use the wider part of the sole on the work to keep. It got a bit fiddly as I set the angle to around 75 degrees to already roughly match the angle between frame and hull and I think it was with the first or second cut that I buggered this system up. Went a little better with the next ones.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  19. #439
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    I think that your problem may be the blade. Not just the number of teeth (Denise is right about fewer teeth for faster cuts and ripping) but the rake or hook angle angle, tooth configuration, and since I am out of my depth, just read this http://www.rockler.com/how-to/blades-101/
    I think your blade model number is X15560-XJ (ebay link with a better picture) It has a negative hook angle, a 2.6mm kerf and Triple Chip Grind (TCG) teeth. The Rockler link above says it is for hard materials and plastics and that the hook angle is better for miter saws and radial arm saws. The hook angle is illustrated at the center of the picture. It is a good crosscut blade possibly for a different type of saw.

    I would look for a combination blade with fewer teeth, an aggressive hook angle and a thin kerf. Then I would get confused because none of the blades I find online have enough information and just buy something that said it was a combination blade. Everything I see is either in the UK or US, and I have no idea how to search for something available in Portugal. Where I live, I prefer the thin kerf Freud Diablo blades. They have a lot of laser cut details that make them a lot quieter.
    Thank you for the link Dave, these infos are very helpful! And yes, this is exactly the blade I have bought! Only, hm, but this is Portugal, the price I paid was a bit over 60 Euros instead. It's a small country with only a few wealthy people which means some stuff you don't get at all or if, only at exorbitant prices. I spent a whole day, went to maybe 25 different shops, and this was the only blade for hardwood I could get my hands on with the correct dimensions for my saw. I'll do some research and see what comes up on internet. Not sure after Brexit, but I think there's no import-taxes on deliveries from the UK yet (only, most of them charge heaps for shipping). However, it must be possible to dig up a decent blade somewhere in Europe!
    Last edited by Dody; 06-12-2018 at 03:49 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  20. #440
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    And because I've loaded the pics on the computer now, here are the new floors:

    1-20180416_111939.jpg
    2-20180416_112838.jpg
    3-20180416_143854.jpg
    7-IMG_9017.jpg
    8-IMG_9018.jpg
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    I tried a search on ebay UK for circular saw blades 190mm 30mm with the box for EU checked: https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_f...p2045573.m1684
    The shipping tab lets you select Portugal, so I assume it will work. There may be a eBay Portugal option, but I don't know the code.

    This looked like it might work:
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEWALT-DT...AAAOSwb0Vand~T
    Shipping to Portugal £9.67
    Portugal
    Expedited Delivery (International Priority Shipping) Estimated between Thu. 21 Jun. and Fri. 22 Jun.
    1.6mm kerf (thin)
    Applications:
    Ripping and cross-cutting natural timbers.
    Cutting composite wood based sheet materials e.g. plywood, MDF and chipboard.
    NOT recommended for timbers that may contain nails.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  22. #442
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Dave, you are awesome, thank you sooooo much !!!

    I'm gonna order it tomorrow morning - I've just flicked through the first page and seen there are also blades from the company Freud you mentioned on sale, would be stupid to order now and tomorrow morning find out that the same company offers the other blades too but can't send them in the same parcel as it's 2 different orders. Don't laugh too hard please, these things actually happen!
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Would I be out of line for suggesting you should always use the smallest amount of projecting sawblade the job will permit?Its safer and if you need to cut slight curves its a little easier to follow a slight curve with care.Its a little like using a narrow bandsaw blade to cut tight curves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Would I be out of line for suggesting you should always use the smallest amount of projecting sawblade the job will permit?Its safer and if you need to cut slight curves its a little easier to follow a slight curve with care.Its a little like using a narrow bandsaw blade to cut tight curves.
    Thank you John for this tip! In my being kind of scared of the nasty thing - you know, all this stuff with cut off arms and fingers and legs 😊 - I've done my best so far to have the edge of the blade only just sticking out on the underside. When I had to angle the cut I was a bit too careful and actually had to cut the bit that was left on the underside to separate the 2 parts with my Japanese pullsaw by hand. No good, I know, but one's got to start learning somewhere!

    Now still, so far I haven't been able to change my direction during the cutting-process. Maybe 2 mm in the length of 1 m of cut, but certainly not more (45 mm Kamballa that is). And, to be honest, I was actually wondering if the little burns with the new blade might have happened where I slightly changed direction?

    I do remember that with the new blade the cut went sometimes faster forward, sometimes slower, although the speed the engine (and so the blade) was turning didn't slow down. As I don't know any better the only reason I could think of was that the wood might have been denser in places? Again, the burns might have been in this area?

    Trouble is that I was concentrating to get the cut as accurately as possible and don't remember what happened in which place. I would be a lot wiser I guess if I had stopped the machine, made a mark on the top, and then continued with the cut. As it is I'm left with a lot of questionmarks.

    If something similar is happening with the blade(s) I'll be ordering tomorrow I will stop and mark it. There must be a way to find out what I'm doing wrong. Or is this normal????

    Sent from my SM-G900FD using Tapatalk
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    I absolutely hate using portable circular saws.I have used several and seen other people abuse what appears to be a simple machine.I often cut through thicker material in two or three stages,rather than cutting too much in one go.Cutting curves is a very risky business and is best done with other tools.I have frequently used a straight edge tacked in place to help with guiding the saw as it helps with accurate straight cuts.

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    That is interesting John, it didn't occur to me that one can pass through the same cut making it deeper with every pass without big risks. Will give it a try next time, for sure, thank you! And it's nice to know I'm not the only one
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    glad to see you are back at it dody and feeling a bit better. i see a trailer in a couple of pics. did you get to move out of the boat this winter? as far as saws i think the small sidewinder you bought ought to easily handle the plywood you are using. might work best with a guide as john suggested, but i bet you will feel safer and will be able to see whats going on better. if you ever think about getting a larger sidewinder, they now make one that is the same size as what you now only with the blade on the opposite side. good luck.

    jim

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Thank you jim!

    The trailer is my dads, he had it sent down here when big part of my deck was still open a few years ago. It's nice to have somewhere to sit, with a table and a cooker as Tonga is empty inside apart from my bunk, but I never moved in to sleep. But ... I managed to get my hands on some cork on a roll, 5 mm thick. This I roughly cut to fit between the frames in the little area where I often sit in the evenings reading before going to bed. It made such a difference! The temperature in this area never dropped below 11 C this winter and a lot of the air-draft from the wind simply disappeared. It was great!

    It's funny that you mention the sidewinder for the ply. It didn't occur to me the moment I bought it, just wanted to use it to cut the fibreglass and the ply from the hull with something adjustable so I don't damage the planks with cutting it off. When the machine arrived, you know how it is, you've just got to test it! I had some scraps of ply lying around and was surprised how nice it worked and how easy to get a straight line. That was the moment I thought, hey, you could use this for cutting the ply too! And actually, it even came with a guide for straight cuts and another one for angled cuts.

    I'll see how useful this one turns out and, I've ordered the new blade for the circular saw. Maybe I'm lucky and it was just the wrong blade, we'll see!
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  29. #449
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    South Australia and Tasmania
    Posts
    14,265

    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    I hate them too, and never dare cut close to the line.

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