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Thread: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

  1. #456
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    Jim "THE HARBOURMASTER CALLED ME TODAY" launched his Amazon after heaps of wonderful work the day Tonga and me were celebrating her 58 years since launchtime.

    Having lost these 6 months with my health-issues I'm really getting nervous about my progess, so I've made a decision: two years from yesterday Tonga is getting 60. I haven't got a clue if I manage, but I would like the 3rd of July 2020 - 2 years from now - to be her second launchday.

    The "race" is on! We'll see how it goes, but this is not the first time for me to try to get where I want to be, and so far it always worked out. Big hopes 😊!!!

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    Last edited by Dody; 07-04-2018 at 06:32 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  2. #457
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Sounds like a good plan to me Dody!

  3. #458
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    I just had another proper look at this deckbeam, here some photos:

    From the top this part looks pretty bad

    Attachment 18450
    I wonder if the rot crosses the glue line in the laminated beam. If not, it may look worse than it is. If you drill into the rot with a large diameter spade bit so you can see when you hit sound wood, you might find that it isn't any deeper than the first board. As much as I hate using circular saws, this is a place where they are handy. You can set the depth, make a series of kerfs an inch apart at the depth of the rot and snap the chunks out with a pry bar and a hammer.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  4. #459
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    I wonder if the rot crosses the glue line in the laminated beam. If not, it may look worse than it is. If you drill into the rot with a large diameter spade bit so you can see when you hit sound wood, you might find that it isn't any deeper than the first board. As much as I hate using circular saws, this is a place where they are handy. You can set the depth, make a series of kerfs an inch apart at the depth of the rot and snap the chunks out with a pry bar and a hammer.
    the pic of the front of the beam makes it look good, so i think dave's idea has a lot of merit. good luck-your getting there!

    jim

  5. #460
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Dave, that was an awesome tip, look at this:

    11-IMG_9076.jpg

    that's the little toy, feeling much more happy for jobs like this (BTW: the blade for the circular saw arrived, made some tests on a bit of scrap, nice cuts but handling the saw is still not my thing)

    12-IMG_9077.jpg

    doesn't look too bad inside the cuts

    13-IMG_9078.jpg

    it did clean up quite nicely! But, as someone was leading cables through there at some time I'm thinking of taking the next layer out as well. If you look at it from the side it shouldn't make any difference as far as strength is concerned if I replace the next one too as there is the stringer on one side (which clearly needs a cleanup) and the beamshelf on the other.

    14-IMG_9079.jpg

    15-IMG_9080.jpg

    Will try to get rid of these nails first!
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  6. #461
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    One of the nails just wouldn't give whatever I tried so I cut it off. It cleaned up nicely 😁:

    Now some holes to fill and I'm in business, thank you Dave!!!

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    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  7. #462
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    It looks like the big hole has a little rot next to it. If you pound a softwood dowel in there you can drill a hole with a spade bit to remove it. The spade bit needs a solid center to work.

    This is one place where ethylene glycol will not leach out. I would pour some automobile antifreeze in the holes to kill any fungus. It will disappear into the wood and stay there for years. Some borax would be good too if you can get it in Portugal. If the holes don't leak, you can fill them with antifreeze and is should be gone by tomorrow. Once it soaks into the wood and dries epoxy will stick.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Awesome Dave, all these very helpful special tricks, thank you so much !!!

    I was a bit too fast, but nothing is lost yet. Have tried to cut it out with chisels as good as possible, cut a fairly matching piece of pine (which was an offcut of the new sidedeckbeam) and soaked the whole lot in Xylophene (a woodpreserver) to let it dry overnight. As the piece is not in yet I still can go for the dowel and the spade bit tomorrow and do a proper repair as it should be.

    The only thing I need to find a solution for is this: I think I need a 24 mm spade bit, maybe even bigger, so the plug I'm gonna fill the hole with should be a tiny bit less than 24 mm. What options are there to make this? I've got plug-cutters for 8, 10 and 12 mm so they won't do. I might have a hole-cutter in 30 mm, but then I would have a hole in the center where the drill sits and if I remember correctly the drill is 5 or 6 mm. Cut a square piece and sand it round with the beltsander? Not sure if I'm not gonna get my fingers accidentially in the wrong place? Make it round sanding by hand then, I guess. Or are there other special tricks?

    Also, I've got a question concerning the Borax. I have managed to get it here in Portugal and bought 4 bags a 1 KG to have enough in stock. A few days ago I was trying to find out how to use it on internet. The instructions I found were to mix 6 oz Borax with 10 oz of warm water till it's dissolved, then add 1 galon of tapwater, dissolve it in this and then spray it on the wood on all sides with one of these plantsprayers you can pressurize. Never mind about the amount of mixture I end up with, that's the easy bit to reduce it. But ... water! Once I have treated the wood with this mixture it needs to dry very well till I can continue working with it. Be it paint, epoxy or whatever. Which means whatever I do I have to plan a long way ahead and beg not to get in the situation that something goes not as planned and I need an extra piece of wood to complete the job. Are there maybe different methods of using Borax? Or how could I work my way around this?
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  9. #464
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by MADOC1 View Post
    the pic of the front of the beam makes it look good, so i think dave's idea has a lot of merit. good luck-your getting there!

    jim
    Thanks jim!!!
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  10. #465
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Xylophene is PCP, pentachlorophenol. I don't know if we can still use it here in the US. Handle it with care. https://www.frenchentree.com/france-...ood-treatment/

    I don't think you need both Xylophene and glycol.

    The plugs are not structural and will be hidden, so any glue should work, and a perfect fit is not really important. I would carve it close enough to tap in and let epoxy fill the gaps. If you want a tight fit: On another recent thread, Nick said to drill the hole 1/16" (1.5mm) smaller than the plug. Sounds awfully tight to me, but I hesitate to argue with Nick. (Peerie Ma) There is a thread about trunnels with some ways to make round pegs #6, and some fancier tools #48.

    There are recipes that go into detail to make the perfect mix of glycol and borates. To mix the glycol and borax for a small job like this I would chuck a few spoonfuls of borax into a container with enough glycol to fill the holes and warm it up. stir well, let the dust settle and pour the liquid in the holes. I wouldn't add any water to the antifreeze. If your antifreeze is diluted 50% with water for use in a car, or used stuff from a car, It should be fine. This isn't a sensitive process.

    This is an old Glycol thread that only touches on borates: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...thylene-Glycol
    More recent thread http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...82-Anti-Freeze
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  11. #466
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    Thank you Dave! Bedtime here already, so will look all this up tomorrow morning.

    I just remembered that some while ago I stumbled across some hoe-handles I wanted to use for something completely different and still have in my workshop. I've got no idea which kind of wood they might be. It's light coloured & fine grain with about 30 mm diameter. Will check it out tomorrow, but this might also be an option for a plug.

    And concerning glue, as it's not structural, and not open to weather I would actually like to use the polurethane woodglue for shipbuilding I've got (Collano Semparoc). Of course I hope I get a tight fit, which I should! In any case it's less rigid than epoxy, so nicer to work with if I happen to put a screw into exactly the spot where a plug is hidden under several layers of wood.

    For the laminations I will use epoxy.

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    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  12. #467
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Collano Semparoc tends to foam as it cures, filling any gaps. It seems to have a better reputation for boat building than Gorilla glue, which is also a PU that foams. This is one of the few places that I would recommend Gorilla foaming PU glue because high strength and a tight fit are not as important as filling the hole, and the foam can fill some petty sizeable gaps. My reason for comparing the two glues is that most of the readers in the U.S. are familiar with Gorilla PU and may not have heard of Collano Semparoc. I had to look it up.

    I have never used Collano Semparoc and I don't have any data on the strength and performance in tight versus loose joints. It seems to have a good reputation for boat building where Gorilla does not.

    Edit If you do get a tight fit, you might need a small groove to let the air out so the pressure won't build up and stop you driving the plug.
    Last edited by MN Dave; 07-07-2018 at 11:33 AM.
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  13. #468
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Dave, thank you heaps for all the links concerning Antifreeze and Borax, but I must admit the more I read about Ethylene Glycol the less happy I feel in using it. I know, you can't have a poison killing everything that harms the wood without causing any risks to your health. If they are short-term-risks, one can protect himself with masks and protective clothing while applying the stuff, stay far away for an hour or how long it takes till everything harmful for people has disappeared, and then keep on going.

    But how can you protect yourself against something that keeps dissolving into the environment even many years later and causes kidney-failure (and probably more issues)? I'm not a health-fanatic, I like my own poisons like tobacco and alcohol, but Tonga is my home and I don't want to knowingly add something that will make it worse for the years to come if I can avoid it.

    In addition to that I found this test quite interesting where they were mixing the Antifreeze with epoxy. I haven't got a clue why someone would like to do that, but the fact that the wood was capable to contain much more water in its cells where Antifreeze was added to the epoxy and the epoxy itself went softer clearly tells me that this is actually the opposite of what one wants to achieve in a boat.

    Result for me: Antifreeze is a No-No, I'm not gonna use it.

    Concerning Polyurethane-glue, I've never worked with Gorilla-glue so I don't know anything about it. A rough check on internet, but I couldn't find a PU glue in the Gorilla-line, which was probably just me. However, so far I've been trying 3 different brands (probably none of them available in the US), all of them exterior grade and all of them recommended for shipbuilding. The first one is sold by Toplicht, a German company specialized in Traditional ships (toplicht.de) and is called Jowat. The second one was recommended to me by the Portuguese shipwright I am working with from time to time, the Brand name is Quilosa, a Spanish Product. And the 3rd one is Collano Semparoc what I'm now working with. I didn't undergo any destruction-tests beforehand. The product from Toplicht and the one from the Spanish company were expanding quite a bit, and what was squeezing out developed fairly big bubbles. With both of these 2 products it was very easy to cut the squeeze-out off with a chisel after it had cured. There was one joint I had to take apart months after it was cured where I had used the Spanish product, and in this case I didn't destroy the wood but the glue-joint came apart. Although this fact saved me a lot of work, I'm not happy about it.

    Collano Semparoc doesn't expand as much as the other 2 products and the bubbles in the squeeze-out are much finer. It does get quite hard but kind of flexible at the same time (don't know how to explain it better), and it really sticks to the wood and kind of keys into it. To cut the squeeze-out off I need a really sharp chisel, kind of have to force it a bit, and whatever I do I can see on the surface of the wood that some of the glue has penetrated into the wood. This was not the same with the other 2 products. Also, with Collano Semparoc I did a few tiny tests before using it, and couldn't get the pieces apart but the wood was breaking instead. For me, as an amateur in things concerning wood, I have much more trust into what I've seen now with this Collano Semparoc so for now I'll keep using it for stuff where I can't be bothered mixing up some epoxy where I feel it is not needed.

    I've shown the test-pieces I made with Collano Semparoc to Albertinho (the shipwright) and he was positively surprised and very interested, thinking of using this instead in the future. Although, he hardly ever uses glue on the fishing-boats, most joints have mechanical fasteners like bolts or nails.
    Last edited by Dody; 07-08-2018 at 05:19 AM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  14. #469
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    There is something wonderful I would like to share with you which has nothing to do with Tonga or wooden boats. For the last 3 winters I had a neighbour coming back with his sweet little sailing-boat: Pedro with Noivo de Utopia.

    The week before he turned 90 (no kidding, I've seen his passport and his driving-license), and this week they went back in the water. This time for a big lifetime voyage: he wants to sail with her to the Mediterranean. Slowly, stopping at ports over night and staying where he wants and likes being, sailing on when he feels like it.

    Wishing you a wonderful trip, Pedro, fair winds and many happy returns!!!



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    Last edited by Dody; 07-08-2018 at 05:20 AM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  15. #470
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Wonderful!

  16. #471
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Gorilla glue is also polyurethane and it foams a lot. The more a glue foams the weaker it will be in a loose joint. Simple rule of mixtures, If half of the glue area is air bubbles, it will be half as strong. Less foaming more strength. We can buy the monkey dung in every hardware store in America, but we can't get your good stuff. More information here:#11

    Don't mix ethylene glycol into the uncured epoxy and don't drink it or get too much on your hands too often. The kidney problems are from long term exposure to a lot of chemical, not the sort of sloppiness that you get when you top off the radiator every six months. What little reaches the surface of the wood is harmless and will be quickly broken down in the environment.

    Xylophene (pentachlorophenol) is a very different animal. Handle this one very carefully. I will not recommend against using it -- carefully. This one will bite you harder and faster, if you let it. Nitrile gloves and good ventilation. Once it is in the wood it is safe enough. It is the chemical that was used to pressure treat wood before the safer copper chrome arsenic, that was replaced by the safer AC2. I keep forgetting what's in AC2.

    EDIT: better SDS sheets needed The hazard statements are a little over the top, but there is a slight difference
    EG https://www.fishersci.ca/store/msds?...countryCode=CA
    Hazard Statements
    Harmful if swallowed
    May cause drowsiness and dizziness
    May cause damage to organs through prolonged or repeated exposure

    PCP (same as Xylophen) https://www.fishersci.com/shop/msdsp...&storeId=10652
    Hazard Statements
    Fatal if swallowed
    Fatal in contact with skin
    Causes skin irritation
    Causes serious eye irritation
    Fatal if inhaled
    May cause respiratory irritation
    Old ones:
    PCP (Xylophene) https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog...g=en&region=US
    Ethylene glycol https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog...g=en&region=US

    I worked on an environmentally friendly amphibious assault vehicle (yes, really, you can't make this up) and we had to study and justify everything that went into it. Oddly enough, our shadowy government overlords do care about the environment. Some of them anyway. We were well ahead of REACH and RoHAS and it was hard to develop and get the less toxic materials before there was a commercial market.

    Ethylene glycol is toxic in high concentrations. What happens if you drink too much, which is something like 100ml or more, is that it is broken down in you liver to oxalic acid, which is what poisons you. Small amounts are harmlessly flushed out through your kidneys and it does not build up in your body. The cumulative damage if from the repeated overexposure, not an accumulation of the chemical. The antidote if you do drink EG is lots of alcohol and water. They will want to give it to you intravenously, but I prefer beer. The alcohol will block the EG in you liver, slowing down the conversion to oxalic acid (the bad stuff in rhubarb leaves) while your kidneys flush it out. If you dilute ED 10:1 with water and pour it on the ground, the soil bacteria will consume it.

    Almost every liquid that you can think of will swell wood, some more than others, and only a few as much as or more than water. The least offensive chemicals that swell and stabilize wood quickly are dipropylene glycol, propylene glycol and ethylene glycol, in that order. PEG is good, but slow to soak in.

    Dave Carnell said that adding a small amount of EG to epoxy made it somewhat easier to handle and did not seem to notice the minor short term degradation. He certainly didn't know about the long term degradation. He meant well. This link details all the bad things it can do: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...us-degradation The bit about poor adhesion with the 75/25 mix was probably due to the fact that the borax powder left on the surface wasn't cleaned off before they glued the sample. Stupid amateur mistake. You can't glue through dirt.
    Last edited by MN Dave; 07-08-2018 at 06:46 PM.
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  17. #472
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Your friend Pedro is an inspiration,may we all have his determination to keep moving.

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    I really hope so John! That's why I felt the need to share the photo of him and his boat with all of you! Well, hm, at least the ones who happen to stumble across Tonga's re-build-thread.

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    fair winds, Dody

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    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  19. #474
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    Dave, I just wanted to answer when I noticed you've added quite some more infos to your post, so I better go through the new things first.

    I did some more research about the antifreeze. Combined with your info I realized that the danger is not about the inhalation of poisonous fumes but skin-contact instead. And for sure, I certainly don't want to drink the stuff.

    Also, I had the idea to dissolve it in industrial alcohol. But, unfortunately, Borax doesn't dissolve in alcohol. So I'm back to water or antifreeze.

    I've still got some Xylophene I want to use up before the lid goes, so the next few bits will be with Xylophene. I'm using Nitrile gloves with it instead of Latex. This shouldn't make a difference, or does it? And a face-mask with 2 filters (brown & white marked which is for all kind of solvents etc. here in Europe).

    But more when I've gone through your updates!

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    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  20. #475
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Xylophene is PCP, pentachlorophenol. I don't know if we can still use it here in the US. Handle it with care. https://www.frenchentree.com/france-...ood-treatment/

    I don't think you need both Xylophene and glycol.

    The plugs are not structural and will be hidden, so any glue should work, and a perfect fit is not really important. I would carve it close enough to tap in and let epoxy fill the gaps. If you want a tight fit: On another recent thread, Nick said to drill the hole 1/16" (1.5mm) smaller than the plug. Sounds awfully tight to me, but I hesitate to argue with Nick. (Peerie Ma) There is a thread about trunnels with some ways to make round pegs #6, and some fancier tools #48.

    There are recipes that go into detail to make the perfect mix of glycol and borates. To mix the glycol and borax for a small job like this I would chuck a few spoonfuls of borax into a container with enough glycol to fill the holes and warm it up. stir well, let the dust settle and pour the liquid in the holes. I wouldn't add any water to the antifreeze. If your antifreeze is diluted 50% with water for use in a car, or used stuff from a car, It should be fine. This isn't a sensitive process.

    This is an old Glycol thread that only touches on borates: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...thylene-Glycol
    More recent thread http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...82-Anti-Freeze
    That is not a plug that is for a structural bolt or drift fastening two components together.

    When dissolving borax in glycol boil the mixture to drive off the water locked into the borax crystals. There will be something on t'iterweb if you search.
    Found this:
    Home-Brew Glycol Solution of Borates: 50% glycol antifreeze, 28% borax, 22% boric acid. To make a stable solution you mix the ingredients and heat till boiling gently. Boil off water until a candy thermometer shows 260°F. (This removes most of the water of crystallization in the borax.) This solution is stable at 40°F and has a borate content of 26%. With antifreeze at $6/gal. and borax and boric acid prices as above, this costs about $15/gal.
    http://www.simplicityboats.com/chemorot.html
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  21. #476
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    For some reason it still hasn't dawned on me that I bought a car last October and so actually can go out and get stuff whenever I need something. Well, admittedly, as long as it is available! I don't need to get every possible ingredient in advance just in case I might need it before I start any job. But here we are ... 11 years without a car seems to have changed me dramatically.

    Knowing that the 2 deckbeams further aft might for sure at least enjoy the replacement of the 2 uppermost layers, knowing that they both actually should be a wee bit higher, and not knowing what I might find when I cut the deck of my little aft-cabin off ...

    You know what's coming, don't you?

    The logical thing: I went off to buy some timber. In the wood-place a few K from here, the one that actually has a bit of choice, although the first time I was there the guy who showed me around was not really cooperative.

    Maybe I should have gone through my old list of woods I was writing down then, which I didn't. My mind was set on the fact that the Gamballa oscura exploded on us with the planking aft when the bending was too much for it, and we were using Casquinha (Scotch Fir) instead which was doing fine. So, Scotch Fir was what I was looking for. Which unfortunately always has knots.

    The guys helping me this time were super-nice and went with me through the whole stack to find the best plank. I needed 60 mm, available were 70 or 100 mm (and thinner stuff of course) in lengths of 4.80 m or 6.40 m. 4.80 m would do.

    They cut it in 2 pieces with a chainsaw for me as they couldn't tell when they had a truck going my way, so I was able to transport it in my car. Loading and 37 Euros and 64 cent later I was on my way back. Sure some knots. But having quite a lot more than I need I'm kind of hoping that I can work my way around them.





    Over the weekend I worked out with which combination of 10 mm and 12 mm my chances are best. Today I took the plank to a village in the neighbourhood to have it cut into strips of 10 and 12 mm. We sent it through the planer/thicknesser first and then got the edges straight - big thanks here to all those giving advice to Chris on his Petrel-Thread, it did help me a lot to get this as I wanted (although the guy exactly knew what he was doing and certainly would have done it right anyway, but it's nice to know the answers to the questions before they are asked and it's even nicer if both parties know from the beginning what it's about!).




    And when I came back I treated them straight away with woodpreserver to save me time later. This time still Xylophene.




    There was some fog rolling in in the evening, so they are now back in my workshop. And to be honest I'm now having second thoughts about the Scotch Fir.

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    Last edited by Dody; 07-09-2018 at 07:24 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  22. #477
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That is not a plug that is for a structural bolt or drift fastening two components together.
    Thanks Nick for the link!

    Funny enough, today in the morning I was thinking about this again. And I thought no. Nick is usually super accurate and with an incredible amount of knowledge. It can't be a typo, because 1.5 mm in the other way is pretty loose. This can only be meant for 2 different materials, like a bolt that needs a tight fit driven into wood. Although 1.5 mm seems a lot to me. But, how should I know better?

    By the way, you are mentioning drift fastenings. A nail is not a drift fastening, or is it? However, what I would like to ask you now that we're at it: if I want to pre-drill a hole for a square galvi-nail of 4 mm, what size drill would I use? And for different sizes of square nails, do there exist any suggestions somewhere or is it just a feeling about what is right someone develops with time? Or would 1.5 mm less always be just right?
    Last edited by Dody; 07-09-2018 at 07:04 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Dody, you have been too long without a car. Your car has roof racks. I don't see the crossmembers, but wooden ones will suffice. You could have tied the board to the roof rack in one piece. It was rather long, so you would have wanted to tie the ends to something under the bumper to keep it from pitching.

    I have to agree about Nick. 'Seems tight' is one thing, maybe enough to get him to say that it was no mistake, but 'Nick was wrong' makes me uncomfortable. The Gougeon brothers gave a talk one night during the small craft work shop about 49 years ago. One interesting tidbit was that they got the strongest bolted joint when they set the threaded bolt in a slightly oversized hole filled with epoxy. Said they could break the bolt before it pulled out, but I don't think they said how deep it had to be potted in.

    Chemistry on the other hand. He is right, you can dissolve more borax in boiling water than just warm, but the water of hydration isn't A) important enough to argue about, and B) driven off. If you do saturate a borax solution in boiling water, you can have fun watching the crystals form as it cools. It takes about three hours.It is also more soluble in ethylene glycol than water at room temperature. Page 4 & 5 https://www.borax.com/wp-content/upl...hydrate-us.pdf The bound water... oh, I did say, it's not that important.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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    Hahhhaaaahhaaa, you're right of course, didn't occur to me at all! Well, as an excuse, the last car I was using a roofrack was for carrying my windsurfing-stuff and I must have been in my early 20s. After that it was 2 (3)- seater sportscars where you can't transport anything, or the big vans/trucks from my ex-husband. Living in New Zealand restaurating the house of my ex-boyfriend was the first time I had a station-wagon, no roofrack, so everything had to fit inside. Habits makes one stop thinking, no good!!! I've got enough scrap-wood, will make some crossmembers for next time!

    Funny with this Borax, I start to get the picture, but now I'm asking myself what is happening the moment it's inside the wood? I know it doesn't really matter but I'm curious! Once the water in the solution has cooled down and the liquids are evaporating what remains would be tiny crystals inside the wood, which kind of reactivate themselves the moment the level of humidity should rise in the wood, and whatever nasty stuff has been there initially got killed the moment the Borax got in there in the first place. Would that be roughly correct?

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    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    What happens to borax? You already described it as well as I can. I prefer Nick's link to the one I have here.

    I spent nearly a minute skimming this paper, and I think it might answer your question. I'm not sure I will ever read it through unless I really have trouble sleeping. http://nisuscorp.com/images/uploads/...n-Paper-08.pdf I mean, talk about deathless prose, who could resist a line like "As yet, no wood decaying basidiomycetes have been reported to be tolerant against borates at normal preservative retention (Dickinson and Murphy 1989; Amburgey 1990; Lloyd 1998; Schoeman and Lloyd 1998)." Gotta love it.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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    Phmmmph , awesome, science has some funny aspects!!! Lucky us don't need to dig any deeper than that, who knows what else might be coming up? Still, it's great to have all this information available!

    I still haven't plugged the hole. Yet. The thing is that I try to avoid doing things which later might turn out as energy invested in the wrong place - meaning by this: what's the point in plugging the hole as long as I don't know if I have to replace the whole deckbeam or not?

    To find out about the state of this deckbeam I need to cut the end of my little deckhouse off. As I need to replace this whole roof/deck/however one likes to call it, it will be better to go a bit forward and do the cut at the centreline of the last deckbeam. Makes it easier to lever it off and makes it easier to take everything further forward off. And the tiny piece of deck I have kept in place aft of it.

    The dilemma is that the moment I have removed this last piece of deck, there is nothing I can stand on to reach further aft. Be it to drag a plastic over the lot to protect it from rain, to cross-check the heights of the other deckbeams etc. and the opening will even be bigger after the cut. Thus, I want to prepare everything that needs to be done on the portside in front of this deckbeam so, if it turns out it's only the top layer or even fairly alright (fingers x-ed) I'm nearly ready to just drop the next sheet of the sidedeck in place to have again something safe to walk on (which is already cut to measure, edges and underside painted and laying on my foredeck). Replacing the top layer won't be more than 3 days with drying of the epoxy and smoothening things a bit, and I can do the repair on the side at the same time. If, on the other hand, I've got to replace it entirely, it takes as long as it takes and I've got to live with it. I'm not scared of heights, but stepping from deckbeam to deckbeam doing stuff with the concrete 3.5 m below is asking for accidents.

    So I keep on going preparing stuff. Got the new sidedeckbeam in place, screwed to the beamshelf and the stringer. I cut some spacers to go with threaded bolts from the top of the deckbeams of the little cabin through the carlin and the sidedeck-beam (there is no proper support now which is needed latest the moment I cut the aft and the other side open), still need to do the wedge for the curve. And I did some white.

    Now I don't like opening the paint-tin for a minute-job and going through all the hussle to wash out and clean the brush afterwards. I had installed 2 new knees, replaced all the bolts there and on the 3rd one - the good and the nasty - with galvi as my boat is galvi-fastened and I don't want to cause any extra eletrolytic corrosion in fasteners I might not know about where they are and everything nicely protected in red-lead-paint. But, this stuff wears off if it doesn't have a proper topcoat which I hadn't done yet.

    The iron sheet in front of each knee was covered in something like tar, which made the surface very irregular, and people say nothing sticks to it. Well, the red-lead-paint didn't care at all about what people say and couldn't be bothered. After that went well I expected my oil-based exterior marine-paint to give a shout and start complaining bitterly, but no such thing happened. The first coat yesterday went on happily, and the second coat today as well. I didn't bother anywhere to use masking-tape as later on when I've installed the ply on the outside of the hull I'll be using the same stuff for the inside of the planks, so nobody will notice. I must say it feels great to see there are 3 things I hopefully don't have to work on any more - and they are white !





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    Last edited by Dody; 07-16-2018 at 03:24 AM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    A few weeks ago Dave (and Denise of course!) was so nice to help me find a better blade for my circular saw. I'm not experienced with circular saws and was struggling with the machine and the results.

    Apart from some tiny cuts not worth mentioning a few days ago, today was the first time I've used the saw and the new blade to make a straight cut. Just one, nothing more. I hadn't reported back yet, so I would like to do that now!

    What I needed was an angled batten 6 cm wide.

    Surface cleaned up with the planer:

    1-IMG_9081.jpg

    that's how the blade looks like:

    2-IMG_9082.jpg

    cut edge on the timber:

    3-IMG_9083.jpg

    and on the batten

    4-IMG_9084.jpg

    compared to how my cuts were looking before this is much much better!

    As far as the handling of the saw is concerned it felt a bit more easy to control and the cut was much more accurate. Which might also be caused by me standing on the wrong side of the machine. I was working in plain sunlight and the laser which is indicating the cuttingline was not visible to me. With my setup it wasn't easy to see the accurateness of the cut in front, so I thought oh well what, just move to the other side and be done!

    Like before I was cutting a bit away from the outside of where I wanted to cut to be on the safe side and do the fine stuff with the electric planer. That worked really well and in this occasion my cut could have been even closer to the line as it was very straight. Sure, the cut was only 75 cm long. But it was freehand without something to run the machine along to make sure the cut will end up straight. So that's not too bad!

    I still don't really like the machine, but I can see more and more it's usefulness, especially as I'm quite happy with today's result!

    Thanks again Dave!
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    That looks pretty good to me Dody. I had to come to terms with my circular saw as well. It used to be the last tool I'd reach for - I would rather spend twenty minutes ripping with a handsaw than thirty seconds with the circular saw. But I got more familiar with it over time and, as you found, my cuts got more accurate and cleaner. Now I still don't love the thing but it's very handy and I use it more than any other saw..

  29. #484
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    A rip guide helps greatly! For even better rips clamp on a guide board. Or make a track like guide.
    https://youtu.be/9an9cAFHdXA
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    A rip guide helps greatly! For even better rips clamp on a guide board. Or make a track like guide.
    https://youtu.be/9an9cAFHdXA
    Denise!!! This board is a great idea, it's something I could even use if the material I'm cutting is smaller in width, and still have a proper base to rest the bottom of the saw full width on something flat as long as I support the outer edge with something the same height as what I'm cutting. Awesome!!!

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    fair winds, Dody

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    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    That looks pretty good to me Dody. I had to come to terms with my circular saw as well. It used to be the last tool I'd reach for - I would rather spend twenty minutes ripping with a handsaw than thirty seconds with the circular saw. But I got more familiar with it over time and, as you found, my cuts got more accurate and cleaner. Now I still don't love the thing but it's very handy and I use it more than any other saw..
    Thanks Chris and I can agree with all my heart! I do seem to have started on the same process as you did, so there is some hope for the future 😊!

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Thanks Chris and I can agree with all my heart! I do seem to have started on the same process as you did, so there is some hope for the future !

    Sent from my SM-G900FD using Tapatalk
    I'll also add that good ear protection made a huge difference in my appreciation of the circular saw. It's much less tiresome if you don't have to listen to the d***ed thing shrieking all day.

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    You're right, it's a bit like with the angle-grinder.

    I remember wirebrushing the bottom of my keel after the new sheet was welded in so I could protect it with paint. It took me several days and I could only bear the noise with ear-protection. Of course these bloody things got in my way where the keel is the widest and I had to half crawl under it as my arms otherwise wouldn't even reach the middle. The maximum I could prop her up to was 15 cm (6 inches?), sometimes one of the wires came off and went straight through my protective clothing and my skin while I was completely trapped at the same time. Didn't like it at all, but it got me used to the noise for short-time stuff.

    A whole day with a circular-saw??? What might that have been? I guess you've really got it under control by now, congrats!!!

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    A few weeks ago Dave (and Denise of course!) was so nice to help me find a better blade for my circular saw. I'm not experienced with circular saws and was struggling with the machine and the results.

    Apart from some tiny cuts not worth mentioning a few days ago, today was the first time I've used the saw and the new blade to make a straight cut. Just one, nothing more. I hadn't reported back yet, so I would like to do that now!


    cut edge on the timber:

    3-IMG_9083.jpg
    Like before I was cutting a bit away from the outside of where I wanted to cut to be on the safe side and do the fine stuff with the electric planer. That worked really well and in this occasion my cut could have been even closer to the line as it was very straight. Sure, the cut was only 75 cm long. But it was freehand without something to run the machine along to make sure the cut will end up straight. So that's not too bad!

    I still don't really like the machine, but I can see more and more it's usefulness, especially as I'm quite happy with today's result!

    Thanks again Dave!
    Not too bad? More like excellent. You have hardly ever used the saw and you cut that freehand? You are good.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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    Thank you Dave, gives me a really happy smile to hear that and makes me feel good!

    But, to be honest, till now I've been doing all my cuts with one or the other of my 2 jigsaws which did allow me to get some kind of training. Using the jigsaw in most cases was more sensible as it usually was cutting curvy stuff but very seldom straight cuts. And it was mainly plywood instead of a piece or a plank of fairly hard Gamballa.

    In a way I start to realise that for straight cuts the circular saw is much more stable for better results as the part of the blade that remains inside the cut is much bigger compared to the tiny blade of a jigsaw. Even if one wanted to go astray, it's much more difficult with a circular saw than a chainsaw.

    I have recently started to really enjoy the benefits of my Japanese pullsaw, and now it seems the circular saw with your awesome blade is rapidly gaining ground.

    Wonder which other tools might start to take over my life soon 😁?

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