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Thread: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

  1. #491
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Soooooo .....

    I've got some updates, but first the circular saw again!

    I've tried several times now with a rip guide which in my case was an aluminium straight-edge about 2 cm thick and 8 cm wide. Shops here sell them normally in 1 m, 2 m and 3 m lengths, I've got all these lengths and was using the matching one for the job. To give it all the best of starts, I laid planks the same thickness next to where I wanted to cut to have a proper even surface which enabled me to clamp it all down properly, keep it from moving etc. Ideal conditions one would think - well, at least I did!

    Sure, it was working ok-ish, but it took me a lot of time to set it all up and I can't really say that I suddenly could have done the cut with my eyes closed. Nor could I discover a real difference between the cuts with and the cuts without guide. Of course, this impression could change dramatically the moment I cut a sheet of plywood, but in my case it was planks of hardwood (Gamballa Oscuro) I was cutting. Also, I found out that if I stand slightly in front of the saw I can actually see where the blade is cutting the wood which makes it fairly easy to follow the mark I made. Which means I just won't bother any more and do without.
    Last edited by Dody; 08-06-2018 at 03:30 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  2. #492
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Soooooo .....

    I've got some updates, but first the circular saw again!

    I've tried several times now with a rip guide which in my case was an aluminium straight-edge about 2 cm thick and 8 cm wide. Shops here sell them normally in 1 m, 2 m and 3 m lengths, I've got all these lengths and was using the matching one for the job. To give it all the best of starts, I laid planks the same thickness next to where I wanted to cut to have a proper even surfacebe which enabled me to clamp it all down properly, keep it from moving etc. Ideal conditions one would think - well, at least I did!

    Sure, it was working ok-ish, but it took me a lot of time to set it all up and I can't really say that I suddenly could have done the cut with my eyes closed. Nor could I discover a real difference between the cuts with and the cuts without guide. Of course, this impression could change dramatically the moment I cut a sheet of plywood, but in my case it was planks of hardwood (Gamballa Oscuro) I was cutting. Also, I found out that if I stand slightly in front of the saw I can actually see where the blade is cutting the wood which makes it fairly easy to follow the mark I made. Which means I just won't bother any more and do without.
    I have a circular saw guide somewhere as well Dody, but I've found the same thing. I can cut just as straight free-hand, with less setup time and fuss.

  3. #493
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    The really good news is that I have found a (paid) helper for possibly the next 2 months to move things a bit ahead and get some progress done. We started Tuesday the week before.

    It is good, but also very difficult for me. After working for nearly 4 years on my own I suddenly not only have to plan ahead for 2 people, have the work lined up to avoid dead time, explain how I want things to be done in Portuguese to someone who's native language is Russian and who's Portuguese is not bad but not good enough to understand everything (not that my Portuguese could be called perfect!). The space to work at (my aftdeck) is too small to work next to each other on different jobs, and if I prepare stuff - like planing down a plank of wood downstairs for use as spacers in several areas later for example - there is constant interruptions because he found something else, needs something, has a question about something or starts stuff he's not supposed to or does things in a way I don't want. Maybe it's all a matter of getting used to, but right now I stopped doing other stuff and just stay around where he is working, getting tools ready or handling materials. Still, there is some arguments going on about how something is to be done. I find it quite stressful at the moment, although there are some things he's actually quite good with. Sitting around is something he's not good with. We'll see.

    First of all we cut the aft-part of my little cabin off to get access to all the deckbeams behind

    03-IMG_9093.jpg

    The deckbeams themselves were all a bit damaged on the top. It made me instantly remember Dave's suggestion on the part I was working before: take off the first and maybe second layer from the top and laminate new battens on.

    But there is more: the deckbeams themselves were all a bit out of shape. We determined the one behind the little house to be the one closest to how it should be and used him as a reference. The result was, that all the others need to be higher in different areas

    16-IMG_9106.jpg

    We started aft going forward. First get these little stringers at the proper height

    04-IMG_9094.jpg

    laminating

    17-IMG_9107.jpg

    Next one you can see it's quite a bit weird construction. The deckbeam is interrupted in the centre by what is actually my samson-post, or better: the construction to support and spread the loads. I find it quite a strong way of doing this and want to keep it. But the top part was in a sorry state

    11-IMG_9101.jpg
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  4. #494
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    We found this out on Thursday and lucky me did not only have 6 m of brand new steel U-Profile with the same dimensions laying around in my workshop, but also Zemanel, one of the welders here was able to spare a few minutes and weld me this new piece in.

    21-IMG_9113.jpg

    24-IMG_9116.jpg

    25-IMG_9117.jpg

    got the deckbeam at the samson-post laminated on the top and the last one fo the little cabin

    29-IMG_9122.jpg

    26-IMG_9119.jpg
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  5. #495
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    What I absolutely didn't like the look of is the underconstruction of the deckbeam at the samson-post. And that there was only one lam keeping the 2 parts together in the centre. We took the crosspiece out

    37-IMG_9130.jpg

    and I made something different from Kamballa

    39-IMG_9132.jpg

    40-IMG_9133.jpg

    It was a tight an perfect fit. Unfortunately my helper hasn't got anything with angled cuts, and unfortunately I didn't tell him that one side has an angled cut an the other side a 90 degree cut when taking it out to work on it further he wouldn't listen and gave it a big hit on his side (the angled one) to make things go faster and split the wood a bit. Well, nothing that can't be repaired but still, I wasn't very happy

    54-IMG_9148.jpg

    I'll attach it with 2 threaded bars cut to length on both sides. The idea came to me to counter-bore the bottom-part as well, so I can hide the nut and cut the bolt so that it doesn't stick out underneath and hurt me in case I've got to crawl aft should something go wrong there one day. I kept Dave's suggestion in mind to stick some piece of wood into the whole to give the bit the necessary support. But in this case my drill from the top was not long enough anyway, I had to take the piece out to complete the hole. Actually, if I use a very thin drill to come out on the other side to mark where the centre of the hole is I can use this mark to drill the counter-bore and then comlete the hole with the 8mm drill. I tried it and it worked really well!

    We've sanded the prepared deckbeams level now, laminated 2 lams underneath the samson-post deckbeam and laminated a new top-layer on the beam we had used as a reference.

    48-IMG_9141.jpg

    Now we've got to get the heights of the deckbeams sorted to match what is coming from the front to get a nice and even curve (my deck is whaleback) sorted.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  6. #496
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    I have a circular saw guide somewhere as well Dody, but I've found the same thing. I can cut just as straight free-hand, with less setup time and fuss.
    Great Chris, thanks, I can't be that wrong then !
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  7. #497
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    looks like you are making good progress dody. it does make me a bit a tad nervous for you with a helper that won't listen and argues with you. i know he can do the heavy lifting, but i am not sure i would keep him around. hope you are not paying him much. anyway good luck.

    jim

  8. #498
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Thank you jim!!!

    It's hardly any heavy lifting at the moment, but heaps of work waiting to be done. Fortunately we are making progress and luckily still more progress than would be possible on my own.
    The thing is that I absolutely couldn't stand it if someone would constantly be at my back repeatedly telling me the same things all over again and permanently interfering before something goes wrong. As employee this would drive me mad, as employer this would drive me mental. Instead I explain everything once, ask if he's got any questions and if he understood what I've asked him to do, let him explain with his own words if necessary and let him do it. If it's not right it has to come out and he's got to start all over again. Which happened quite a few times since he's started working with me. Fortunately he's got some bright moments then and asks me why this was not good. And fortunately this leads to him listening with a bit more attention to what I tell him now, and to ask questions.

    It's fairly possible that I'm too fussy about certain things, but I've done all the rest of the work about my deck to my very best of abilities concerning quality of workmanship and don't see any reason why my aftdeck should be just thrown together. Simple things. We wanted to laminate 3 new layers on the top of the deckbeam at the end of the little cabin. To let him do some work too, I let him cut the lams to the correct shape at the edges and the proper length of course. Friday evening, laminating done, work finished for the day I had a good look around everything and discovered the edge on the portside consisting of 3 nice little steps with strange angles instead of one straight and proper cutting-line. We're not building houses, we are re-building a boat. Monday morning this had to come out. He wouldn't understand why, and then asked me to do the cuts instead.
    Making knees. We talked about each single one, and he managed a nice result. Now it was time for sanding and the first coat of varnish (50:50 with thinner). I asked him to varnish the backside (which doesn't look as nice as the front) first, explained that 4 hours later when it's touch-dry we would turn them around and then do the frontside. For some reason he had to varnish the frontside first instead. "Oh, but that doesn't matter, it's all the same anyway". It might not matter to him, but I found out that I can varnish both sides in a day if I start with the backside, let it get dry to the touch, turn them around, varnish the frontside and thus allow the frontside to get nearly 24 hours of drying-time without having any marks of whatever I used to keep the pieces off the floor. The back nobody will see, so it doesn't really matter if there should be marks, still, it's protected. The other way around I can't get all 3 coats on in 3 days.

    Of course things go wrong here and there. No point in getting upset, he would only try to hide it next time and me having to play detective to find it. So, I make a joke about it and get on with the job.

    Payment. For northern European standards it's not a lot, for Portuguese standards it's good money. Although, he's been working on several other boats here before, sometimes for months, and got paid by the hour. His hourly rate was quite a lot more than what I'm paying.

    I'm too worn out now, will post some pics tomorrow!
    Last edited by Dody; 08-10-2018 at 08:30 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  9. #499
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    Default

    More ... It was a bit breezy, he was supposed to do some sanding & paintwork upstairs after doing the varnish. We found a good place downstairs for it to dry and I asked him to tell me if more space is needed (was planing the battens for the beamshelf in the meantime on the other side & in front) so we could find some additional protected space. He didn't report back, so I thought all is well.

    Evening came, weekend, after he went home I hoovered upstairs and carried all the new knees upstairs to be protected from humidity during the night. I found out the space for the varnished knees to dry was not enough, he had placed a few knees somewhere directly under the stern and aft-part of Tonga (partly open at the bottom) where he was doing the sanding and later the paintjob. It doesn't really matter as this was just the 1st coat but, surprise, surprise, lots of dust from sanding and even paint-drips on the varnished surface.

    Now, we're not talking about a 12 year-old, but someone in his mid-sixties. I don't want to be unjust, but is it really asking too much in either telling me that he's run out of protected space or find a proper solution by himself? Dust from sanding eventually finds its way below, we all know that. And not that there need to be any paintdrips if one knows what he's doing, but why place something directly below risking this to happen?

    Well, I might be too fussy or just expecting too much from someone who should know better.

    I'll do the varnishing over the weekend myself and might have a chat with him on Monday. No idea if it's worth the trouble ...

    At least, in comparison with my French neighbour Philippe who's been employing him on and off for ages for monster-fees and really struggling to achieve what he needed him to do, I seem to have a pretty easy-going life concerning him.

    Sent from my SM-G900FD using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Dody; 08-11-2018 at 08:45 AM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  10. #500
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Plans are great, but things are not always going to plan on a boat!

    On one of my more intensive checks at the weekend I discovered this:

    01-IMG_9142.jpg

    02-IMG_9143.jpg

    Oh I know you bastard, I've seen you before!!! I immediately soaked it in woodpreserver hoping to kill whatever might still be alive to prevent spreading anything while removing it. Monday came and we took it all out

    03-20180806_100307.jpg

    10-IMG_9159.jpg

    13-IMG_9162.jpg
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  11. #501
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    The deckbeam also was affected

    17-IMG_9167.jpg

    Right, got to laminate a new one! I had made a drawing for Larks some while ago (Larrikin H 28 - thread) how to get the crown of the deckbeam right and dug it out to build my jig.

    1-IMG_8743.jpg

    Suddenly I remembered I had kept one of the old deckbeams from around the widest part of Tonga. It was constantly in my way, the ends were gone on this one, but the rest was not too bad. I got it out of my workshop and actually, it looked as if it could work.

    14-IMG_9164.jpg

    If it wasn't for my helper I would probably have made a new one anyway. As it was, I wanted to get on with the job and don't spent time playing, so, we used this one. And to save even more time, instead of making a new wedge shaped to the curve of the deckbeam I used an offcut of a healthy part of the deckbeam we had to take out and cut it flush on the bottom.

    05-20180806_130202.jpg

    16-IMG_9166.jpg
    Last edited by Dody; 08-12-2018 at 08:55 AM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  12. #502
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Installing and getting it all shipshape

    19-IMG_9170.jpg

    1-IMG_9178.jpg

    My Helper had a little accident with the support of the deckbeam 1 further forward, the one where the end of the deckhouse lands on. Not sure if this might even have been on purpose because we had quite some discussions about the height of this deckbeam. Him being the opinion it needs to be sanded further down a lot, me working to convince him that it needs to be higher to give a smooth curve to match the deckbeams further forward. However, at one moment, suddenly and unexpectedly, I found this deckbeam to be lifted above the frame where it is supposed to sit on flash with gap of maybe 8 cm from the bottom of the wedge to the frame instead, same to the support. Sure enough he couldn't explain how this could have happened.

    I banged it back in place with a mallet and made a new construction for underneath and a new leg. With this I got carried away a bit concerning the bolts on the bottom, overkill so to speak. I had bought them many years ago, absolutely love them, and was super-happy that I finally had found a place where I could use some of them.

    1-IMG_9176.jpg

    1-IMG_9177.jpg
    Last edited by Dody; 08-12-2018 at 09:00 AM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  13. #503
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    There was something I found really annoying. Have a look at the crossbeam you can see behind my samson-post:

    1-IMG_9125.jpg

    or from the top

    1-IMG_9094.jpg

    Everything aft of that is the new construction I did together with Albertino when we re-built the stern. All this is pretty strong, certainly stronger than these 2 planks. On top of that, I tried it, the moment the new deck is in place, I will never ever again be able to crawl past it should there be a problem one day. These planks had to go, no way to keep them!

    1-IMG_9181.jpg

    1-IMG_9189.jpg

    I still couldn't say it'll be a lot of fun to work there if need be, but at least it's possible now!
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  14. #504
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    There might still be some bolts here and there to add, for the meantime we started a mass-production of the knees. First 2 coats are on now, 1 more to go

    3-IMG_9186.jpg

    4-IMG_9188.jpg

    And because they can't just go in like this, everything behind them needs to be protected with paint first. And of course the meeting edges of my new crosspiece at the samson-post

    2-IMG_9182.jpg

    And because I can't do without any more I too have a proper moaning-chair now :-D!

    6-20180805_143711.jpg
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  15. #505
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    I've got enough, I can't work like this, I told my helper today that we won't continue to work together.

    Sent from my SM-G900FD using Tapatalk
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  16. #506
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    probably a good move dody, if for no other reason your peace of mind.

    jim

  17. #507
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    ^^^ Agreed. Help is great to have but only if it’s actually helpful.

  18. #508
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Thanks jim and Chris!

    The worst thing happened: I wasn't enjoying any more what I'm doing. And I was cutting corners where I didn't want to cut corners but had to for the sake of a smooth workflow.

    Many years ago I had a very bad burnout. I survived and managed to get myself happy. As long as I keep stress out, live life my way and in freedom. This whole affair went against all 3 points and the first symptoms started to sneak up. I'm not going down that road again, so I had to stop.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  19. #509
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    You made the right decision.You need to be sure that the work on the boat is done correctly and that the boat can be depended on.Good luck with the next part of the process.

  20. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    You made the right decision.You need to be sure that the work on the boat is done correctly and that the boat can be depended on.Good luck with the next part of the process.
    Thank you John!!!

    I'm slowly coming to terms with it after taking 7 days off. Well, only doing tiny repair-bits on the mess for an hour or so each day doing my best not to get upset and trying to relax the rest of the time. I guess I've learned a lesson or two ...

    One thing is for certain: me and a helper doesn't work at all. Certainly not for a multitude of different jobs and more than a few hours.

    This might be a completely different game for repetitive jobs going on for days on end, like cutting the outer skin off for example with someone who is capable to understand that the thickness below the waterline is different to the one above instead of cutting my planks to pieces. I kind of have my doubts at the moment, so I guess I better do that myself.

    But: the banging new nails in the plank-to-frame-connection ... Right now there is a guy here from Matosinhos (Porto-Area, which is about 100 nautical Miles North from here), who's done nothing else for weeks on a fishing-boat that's getting a complete overhaul, and then he started with the caulking. This is his proper job all of his life, and he's taking it very serious. I'll have to provide food and accommodation of course, but this would take a huge weight off my shoulders and I would be happy to have him do the job.

    Or the fibreglass. There is a couple here who've been building fibreglass-boats right here in the port for 20 years or even more. They've got a new employer now, doing the same job 7 K away from here. The husband reckons he'll glass her up within 2 weeks. I've seen them on the job many times, and they are great people always hard working and with superb results. I would be happy to work with them on this particular job.

    Everything else, no way. It just doesn't work and is a complete waste of time and money, I just can't do it!

    Sent from my SM-G900FD using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Dody; 08-28-2018 at 05:13 AM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  21. #511
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Thank you John!!!

    I'm slowly coming to terms with it after taking 7 days off. Well, only doing tiny repair-bits on the mess for an hour or so each day doing my best not to get upset and trying to relax the rest of the time. I guess I've learned a lesson or two ...

    One thing is for certain: me and a helper doesn't work at all. Certainly not for a multitude of different jobs and more than a few hours.

    This might be a completely different game for repetitive jobs going on for days on end, like cutting the outer skin off for example with someone who is capable to understand that the thickness below the waterline is different to the one above instead of cutting my planks to pieces. I kind of have my doubts at the moment, so I guess I better do that myself.

    But: the banging new nails in the plank-to-frame-connection ... Right now there is a guy here from Matosinhos (Porto-Area, which is about 100 nautical Miles North from here), who's done nothing else for weeks on a fishing-boat that's getting a complete overhaul, and then he started with the caulking. This is his proper job all of his life, and he's taking it very serious. I'll have to provide food and accommodation of course, but this would take a huge weight off my shoulders and I would be happy to have him do the job.

    Or the fibreglass. There is a couple here who've been building fibreglass-boats right here in the port for 20 years or even more. They've got a new employer now, doing the same job 7 K away from here. The husband reckons he'll glass her up within 2 weeks. I've seen them on the job many times, and they are great people always hard working and with superb results. I would be happy to work with them on this particular job.

    Everything else, no way. It just doesn't work and is a complete waste of time and money, I just can't do it!

    Sent from my SM-G900FD using Tapatalk
    You provide food and accommodation AND pay people? I wonder how many people would enjoy a week in Portugal where they have the privilege of helping you out on the boat as long as they have some time for sightseeing. No need to fire workers since they are all temporary. It would probably take the whole week to get them up to speed and then they would have to leave.

    I have lost track of the plan for sheathing. Is this still the plan?
    I've already ordered the plywood for the hull, had it cut in 14 cm strips (am using 6 mm ply as I tested and found out it bends easy enough in the closest bends), and I will go for 3 layers, one crossing the previous one. The layers of ply will be bonded together with Epoxy, and on top of that 3 or so layers of fibreglass, probably the exterior one in Carbon or Kevlar for more protection against little icy bits etc. So far so good.
    I would argue against an outer layer of carbon because it does not withstand impact well and is very expensive. The outer layer should be glass or something more resilient like Kevlar, Dynel, Diolen, Xynole or even flax. Any one of them would work for you if you can find some.

    This article is about adding diagonal planking to an old hull. It isn't plywood, but the process is similar and it might give you some ideas for working with the plywood layers. https://www.woodenboat.com/sheathing-tired-old-hull Someone will point out that you can't use a plane to fair plywood like they do in the video. Fairing will require a filler. Could that be where the 106 kg of talc was used originally? http://www.fky.org/prestodata/showdo...r=0&config=std
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  22. #512
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    I wonder how many people would enjoy a week in Portugal where they have the privilege of helping you out on the boat as long as they have some time for sightseeing.
    Ooooh - I like it. I'm seeing a new business opportunity. Wooden Boat Tourism. See the world and work on wooden boats. Just need a website. Boat owners could list their location, accommodations (tent, tarp under the boat, bilge, spare berth, back of the pickup truck when it's not being used for hauling boat supplies) and work needs (caulking, sanding, etc.). Punters would be beating down the door. Tired of sanding your own boat in Poughkeepsie? Fly to exotic locations and sand someone else's boat!

  23. #513
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Aaaaahhh, now we're getting somewhere ! I was wondering about this for a long long time ... has any of you ever heard of something called "Woofing"? It's about organic farming mainly. There exists a website. People all over the world offer free accommodation and 3 meals a day in exchange for 5 hours work per day. This can be fruit-picking, goat-hearding, setting up a building in an organic farm and so on. Mostly young people use this opportunity to travel the world and see different places. My first idea was to see how strict these rules are and if there might be a possibility. But, as boatbuilding has nothing to do with organic farming, nor with animals (if we don't count the dark creatures hiding out in the bilge or stray cats and dogs ...) I didn't dig any deeper into the subject.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  24. #514
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    I have lost track of the plan for sheathing. Is this still the plan?I would argue against an outer layer of carbon because it does not withstand impact well and is very expensive. The outer layer should be glass or something more resilient like Kevlar, Dynel, Diolen, Xynole or even flax. Any one of them would work for you if you can find some.

    This article is about adding diagonal planking to an old hull. It isn't plywood, but the process is similar and it might give you some ideas for working with the plywood layers. https://www.woodenboat.com/sheathing-tired-old-hull Someone will point out that you can't use a plane to fair plywood like they do in the video. Fairing will require a filler. Could that be where the 106 kg of talc was used originally? http://www.fky.org/prestodata/showdo...r=0&config=std
    Yes Dave, it's still the plan and the plywood is still waiting in my workshop for me to get to this point. Thank you heaps for the links and the info, I'll dig a bit deeper into all this tomorrow or at the weekend (depending if the forecast is right with announcing drizzle all day long for tomorrow or not, coz I'd love to do some more white paint to hide the misery done by my helper).

    Concerning the guy doing the nails and the calfatering on the wooden fishing-boats, I've got to find out his hourly rate and if he is self-employed or not. Usually hourly rates in Portugal are pretty low (as are monthly salaries). Without knowing more details it's difficult to say. But imagine a situation where someone earns 40 Euro a day, would have to pay around 25 Euro a night for accommodation (if not provided for), travel-expenses and food. He's got plenty of work where he comes from (Matosinhos) and a place to stay which is already paid for. Why would one move somewhere else to work if he's worse off financially?

    I really like your idea for temporary people, as long as it's not more than a few hours or an in advance well defined job.
    Last edited by Dody; 08-28-2018 at 05:25 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  25. #515
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    I usually find working with a helper is a bitch. I have to stress all day keeping them busy, and they don't end up doing it the way I wanted anyway. Leo, the mad Englishman rebuilding Tally Ho seems to get occasional helpers. We've had some woofers on our small property. Frustrating. Nice people for the most part, but no way to get stuff done other than maybe weeding, and even then the collateral damage can be pretty bad.

  26. #516
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    My S.I.L runs a business and has woofers in . I think she might have given up on it because of what Phil says . Wide range of skills ,often no knowledge ,but you get everything from the the little prince and princess who uses up all the broadband while manicuring to people who do actually want to work and learn but need constant direction. I'm sure there are exceptions but it brings to mind the death of a Colin Archer boat due to unskilled although well meaning labour. They had less chance of getting a plank to land on a frame than I do of following Buzz Aldrin onto the moon.
    The workmanship was nothing short of agricultural, which is appropriate when the subject is woofers I suppose.

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    You're touching a subject Phil which, even with my tiny experience, absolutely hits the mark.

    I did have some good experiences though. The large sheets of ply (laminating the deck amidships) were from their dimensions too big to be flipped and laminated in place before the epoxy sets by a single person. I was lucky that at that stage plenty of boats were passing through Nazaré and the sailors were more than happy to lend me a hand for an hour to laminate the next sheet in. This went really well.

    But anything else, especially these last 4 weeks, it's just a nightmare. And, as you say: none of the results are as I wanted them to be and it will take me ages to rectify the problems I know of (the twisted deckbeam for example) - and I'm pretty sure there is some which escaped my notice. 4 weeks is a long time ...
    My helper claimed he was working for 10 years as a carpenter in Portugal. Turns out on building-sites and speed was the only important thing. Not really what you would want in re-building a boat. Surprisingly he built his own sailingboat 10 years ago, 11 m and quite radical (I've seen the album from his building-process in Santarém, about 80 K from here). He's living on it in the Marina at the other side of the port. After what he's been doing on Tonga I'm not sure any more what to believe.

    Sent from my SM-G900FD using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Dody; 08-28-2018 at 06:47 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  28. #518
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Turned out nice and sunny after a few hours but new neighbours arrived and the boat is getting washed.

    Back to the subject:

    I think one's got to be detached from his property to a certain degree. The trouble with helpers - any kind of helper - is complicated. Even worse so on a boat. Reflections on the subject, not necessarily in this order and I'm sure there's lots to add

    - to start with you've not only got the responsibility that they don't injure themselves badly
    - you don't want to get your tools damaged or destroyed
    - you don't want to get your materials damaged or destroyed
    - you don't want to have your boat (or whatever) in a worse condition afterwards, nor what is around you
    - usually there is a big gap between the skills your helper claims to have and reality
    - the standards you expect and the standards you are faced with will differ tremendously

    About most of it you only find out the moment actual work has started and your helper happily paints over the dust and rubbish he overlooked when you sent him in for a proper cleanup, misses whole areas or patches, and makes a big mess of the whole place - just to give an example.

    It's also no good and not the right time to find out someone is not capable to place a woodclamp properly into position (although you've seen him using these things many times) the moment everything is laminated up and you're holding the whole slippery stack nicely lined up in postition for him to do up the clamps. They've got to be perfectly vertical and in the centre, otherwise you just provoke everything to slip away.

    I thought I'll be on the safe side keeping him busy with dismantling things I hadn't done yet when stuff elsewhere needed curing- or drying-time. The instructions were to take the rusty screws and nails out where the wood is staying in place (frames, planks, deckbeams). No way he could find the patience, he didn't even try, he cut them all off instead.

    Removal of seacocks and skinfittings. I had replaced the ones for the toilet in the aftcabin in 2002, them I did with teflon-tape and they came out easy enough. The ones in the engine-room I had replaced in 2006 with some special glue for the purpose from Loctite. I tried with the heatgun but they wouldn't come apart. Okay, we need to cut them. I went below with the crowbar - which had just the correct dimensions to catch the 2 extrusions inside the skinfitting - to hold it in place, while he was supposed to undo the nut which of course was not glued. Down below I could feel some tiny scratching going on, then huge bangs with the hammer. The nut was not undone, he wanted to bang the entire thing throught the plank! Fortunately I had installed them with plywood-rings to the hull, so his intent was not successful. After undoing the nut and cutting the plywood-ring we pushed it down and had enough space to cut it off. "We can't take the ones for the cockpit-drainage aft out, they have to stay!" - "What???" - "Yes, I can't reach them with the spanner" - "You must be joking! I've installed them with the engine and gearbox still in place with this same spanner and you can't get there although the engine and gearbox are out and you've got heaps of space???"

    Although I've seen some butchering going on with the removal of skinfittings by "professionals" I was completely wrong in assuming that a sailor, who claims to have built his own boat, is capable to understand the principles of a simple skinfitting or anything else concerning boats.
    Last edited by Dody; 08-29-2018 at 08:57 AM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  29. #519
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    Sometimes people will work quite differently depending whether they are working for themselves or working for a dollar.


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  30. #520
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    My S.I.L runs a business and has woofers in . I think she might have given up on it because of what Phil says . Wide range of skills ,often no knowledge ,but you get everything from the the little prince and princess who uses up all the broadband while manicuring to people who do actually want to work and learn but need constant direction. I'm sure there are exceptions but it brings to mind the death of a Colin Archer boat due to unskilled although well meaning labour. They had less chance of getting a plank to land on a frame than I do of following Buzz Aldrin onto the moon.
    The workmanship was nothing short of agricultural, which is appropriate when the subject is woofers I suppose.
    It's a pity about the Colin Archer and I hope no lives were lost. I haven't heard about the story, but can't imagine the woofers being the only ones to whom it comes down to. As far as I understood, woofers are temporary helpers who take no responsibility and are not getting paid for their work. I have difficulties to image a boatowner to tell anyone who just turns up for 2 weeks to have him change planks on his boat without finding out about this persons skills first.

    You certainly don't have to be a boatbuilder to build a boat as long as you are happy to learn, understand and expand your skills. The same is true for a re-build.

    Right now L'Abber-Wrach (Brittany/France) comes back to my mind and Père Joenn. The day I met him he was 92 years old (2012), strong as a bull, bare feet in the water and tears of happiness running down his cheeks when the boat one of his youngsters had re-built was launched and started to float up with the tide. More than 60 years ago Père Joenn was working as a priest in a prison in Paris (he was born on Isle d'Ouessant, a few miles from L'Abber-Wrach). It was breaking his heart to see all these young kids who got into stealing and drugs taken to prison. One day he just couldn't go on like this any more, took his motorbike to drive all over Paris and, whenever he saw a policecar picking up youngsters he stopped and convinced them that they belong to him. He took them all to L'Abber-Wrach where his family had some land. Together they erected a house and he bought a derelict schooner. The boat got transported over there and he re-built it together with all the young ex thieves and druggies. The boat got launched and they went for their first cruise together, that's how it all started. When I met him he had two 3-masted ships, the Rara Avis and the Belespoir - perfectly maintained by young people who stopped taking drugs and learned a profession in his workshops concerning shipbuilding. Just the year before he had undertaken a voyage across the Atlantic to the US with both ships in company is what the young people told me super-proud of him.

    Now, Père Joenn was no professional boatbuilder, and none of his kids were in the beginning. But the right people liked what he was doing and offered their help in education. Certainly not a process one can go through within 1 or 2 weeks.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  31. #521
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    And because we all like pictures (well, I do!), here is the Bel Espoir:



    and here Rara Avis:





    All 3 photos from Marinetraffic and I hope the photographer are not unhappy about it!
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  32. #522
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Sometimes people will work quite differently depending whether they are working for themselves or working for a dollar.
    You deserve a medal for this statement! I've noticed quite a few things during the time he was working for me fitting perfectly into this category.

    Add to this impaired vision - or, possibly - problems with his glasses. Add problems with his hearing (if that was not on purpose). And add lack of respect for boats older than just launched and I guess we've pretty much got it.

    Oh no, we haven't! The amount of things I had to translate for my neighbor Philippe before, concerning wood-preservers and treatment of wood, the complete lack of knowledge about different metals and their impact on wooden boats (came out with the arguments we had about Stainless, Galvi, Brass etc.), and the lack of any knowledge as far as electricity is concerned leads more in the direction of utter and complete incompetence and ignorance.

    About 2 weeks before I agreed to work with this guy, my car-mechanic and his 14-year-old son expressed an interest for the son to work with me. He's a really bright kid and I like him. I was sure I would enjoy working with him and explaining and helping him to develop skills. But then I thought it would be much better for him to get a taste of his dads workshop and learn something there for his future. And I was a little bit scared about not being able to properly explain the handling of some of the machines with my Portuguese, causing the worst of the worst: an accident. We didn't take up on the subject again, so I left it as it was.

    Never mind, I can't turn back the clock, got to live with what happened.

    I found heaps more runners and drips in the paintjob aft who had escaped my sanding. The moment the new deck is on it will be a big struggle for me to get to these places, which in theory means I not only will not see them every day in the future, but possibly will never actually see them again. For the sake of peace I've decided to ignore their presence.

    What I can't ignore is the fact of the twisted deckbeam. Twisted insofar as it is completely correct on the starboard-side, level and everything, but leaning forward on the portside where it meets the beamshelf, although in the correct position on top of the frame. The deckbeam was not twisted at all when I cut it to measure. Today I realized that the wedge fitting under the deckbeam on the side to make the joint to the construction underneath is wrongly shaped as the top is angled. I was wondering at the time what my helper was sanding on the top of it. Well. it went completely wrong. I'll take some pics tomorrow. The wedge has to be replaced. The boltholes with a correctly shaped wedge will not be vertical any more, I will have to replace the piece of wood underneath. With some luck they might still end up on the underside. As we glued it in with epoxy it might not be possible to just take the wedge out, in the worst case I don't only have to replace the whole construction underneath but also laminate a new deckbeam. Getting upset about it doesn't help at all, it's got to be sorted.
    Last edited by Dody; 08-30-2018 at 06:07 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  33. #523
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    So I finally got myself together to take these pictures. 1 step forward, 2 steps back ...

    The middle-one is the deckbeam I'm talking about

    1-IMG_9252.jpg

    Portside, as reference to show how much it is twisted

    6-IMG_9257.jpg

    and here is the reason why, the wedge is not shaped correctly

    4-IMG_9255.jpg
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  34. #524
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Argh - that's frustrating Dody but it doesn't look too hard to fix at least?

  35. #525
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    So I finally got myself together to take these pictures. 1 step forward, 2 steps back ...

    The middle-one is the deckbeam I'm talking about

    1-IMG_9252.jpg

    Portside, as reference to show how much it is twisted

    6-IMG_9257.jpg

    and here is the reason why, the wedge is not shaped correctly

    4-IMG_9255.jpg
    If both ends don't have too much angle to the wedge, perhaps the deck beam was twisted and the wedge was shaped to compensate because it was too difficult to force the beam into place. If that was the case, it will not be difficult to bond a strip of wood to the top and plane it to fit.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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