Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

[MN Dave]

Has anyone ever tried oiling a long drill? It helps drive a screw.

Maybe soap, which can be washed off or linseed oil would soak in and harden so as not to cause problems with finishing later. You might have to pull the drill and reapply several times.

[Dody]

I was wondering the same thing before I started with the damn hole, Dave. And then, when it got stuck, I wondered how about chucking WD40 or something on the drill hoping it would find it's way down and do something about it. I didn't and got it out thanks to Nick's help. But if someone here has tried anything, please let us know!

[DeniseO30]

Reading above not quite sure what's going on Dody, is it out yet? The drill bit

[Peerie Maa]

Can you believe it, it works!!!!!



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Excellent

[Dody]

Yes Denise, thank you, it's out, one of Nick's special treatments made it possible! Dave's and my question above concerns the prevention of similar situations with long drills in the future.

[Dody]

Excellent

Thanks again Nick for your help, this was awesome!

[Dody]

I need these holes to be 12 mm, not the 6 mm I was drilling now. The reason is that I wanted to have a pilot-hole in the correct angle to use the hole-cutter from below. For the washers that is. For those who don't remember: only one side is planked yet. To do this as good as possible for me I needed a long pilot-bit for the cutter. I found one slightly longer, but not long enough. And I found a long 6.5 mm drill, which wouldn't fit in the adapter as only 6.4 mm goes in. So I had it machined down to 6.4 mm and a slit cut in.

1-IMG_0522.jpg

1-IMG_0525.jpg

Now trying if it works

1-IMG_0527.jpg

It does. Although I would have liked to go deeper. But no matter what I have tried be it slow or fast the machine gets stuck at this point and kicks back. I have worked with holecutters before. Not too often, and I had the machine kicking back before but never this aggressively and I always managed in the end. But this time it just wouldn't let me. Could this be because the wood of the backbone (I think it was Akazie or so, something super-hard to work with and blunting our tools within no time) is so hard?

[DeniseO30]

I don't spend a lot of time rereading anymore I just look at the bottom post like everybody else,. Anyhow, glad you got it taken care of! I'm always backing drill bits out of the wood, even large forstner bits that are larger than the shaft have to come out to clear the chips I have one that's 2.75 diameter and it gets really hot really quick even on low speed on the wood lathe.

[Jay Greer]

Some times it helps to rub a bit of paraffin on both the hole saw and pilot drill. The inside of the saw often needs it more than the outside does. Welding an extension on the drill also can help get the motor up and clear of obstructions. In a cramped area you need to conjur up that which will work best and best agree with being forced into a weird space to work in. Let logic be your guide!

"PS", a barefoot auger has less tendancy to jam with chips than a twist drill will. So, the hole can be drilled all the way first and then you can come back with the hole saw mounted on steel rod that is turned down at one end to fit the chuck. Do you have access to a metal lathe?
I use a very old 618 Craftsman lathe that saves me when I need to machine a part or tool. They often come up on Ebay, Estate, or garage sales for as little as three or four hundred dollars! This, in my humble opinion, is a tool that no boat builder should be without! Here a tapered bronze flag staff is being turned in the 518 with the help of a home made taper attachment.
Jay

[Peerie Maa]

I need these holes to be 12 mm, not the 6 mm I was drilling now. The reason is that I wanted to have a pilot-hole in the correct angle to use the hole-cutter from below. For the washers that is. For those who don't remember: only one side is planked yet. To do this as good as possible for me I needed a long pilot-bit for the cutter. I found one slightly longer, but not long enough. And I found a long 6.5 mm drill, which wouldn't fit in the adapter as only 6.4 mm goes in. So I had it machined down to 6.4 mm and a slit cut in.

1-IMG_0522.jpg

1-IMG_0525.jpg

Now trying if it works

1-IMG_0527.jpg

It does. Although I would have liked to go deeper. But no matter what I have tried be it slow or fast the machine gets stuck at this point and kicks back. I have worked with holecutters before. Not too often, and I had the machine kicking back before but never this aggressively and I always managed in the end. But this time it just wouldn't let me. Could this be because the wood of the backbone (I think it was Akazie or so, something super-hard to work with and blunting our tools within no time) is so hard?

Back up a step. You have pilot holes, so a plain shiny steel rod will do instead of the twist bit, will it not?

[Dody]

Hm, this is all a bit confusing for me now, and I guess I didn't explain properly what I am doing here.

The pilot-holes for all three holes are done as you can see. The step I'm now at is to bore the holes for the 38 mm washers, and bore them deep enough and in the correct angle to take the washers and also take the nut.

I got this far with the holecutter, using the holes I made for the pilot-bit of the holecutter to get the correct angle.

Thanks Jay by the way, I will try with lubricating tomorrow to see if I get any deeper with the holecutter.

If I can't get any deeper with the holecutter, I will plug the pilot-holes and try with a forstner-bit and/or the spadebit. See how that goes. However, I need enough clearance for washer and nut. And I need it in the right angle.

Once this is done it's with the 12 mm drilling from below all the way up which hopefully won't be too complicated with the pilot-hole done all the way through already.

[Peerie Maa]

Do not bung the holes, have your local friendly fab shop modify your spade bit like this:
Scan_20200324.jpgMake the centring bar 20 to 30 mm long.
You can then clean the bottom of the hole with your Fostner bit.

[Dody]

Ah, yes, now I understand Nick, thank you!!!

Only thing is I'm not sure if I can get this done right now. With Corona-Virus everything here is in lockdown at the moment to keep the speading-rate as low as possible to give the health system a tiny chance to catch up and this is quite a struggle. Portugal is a small country with only 11 Million inhabitants. Not that the medical system is very strong to begin with, but now even something like 100 of our doctors are infected, nurses and technicians too, and important equipment is missing in all corners. Masks are certainly a main issue too. Apart from anything important for survival all is closed. We're not meant to leave our homes unless for very short provisioning, medical issues, work - if it's an industry essential for survival, but we're still allowed a short exercise in fresh air if we do this without company in the vicinity of our homes. And of course no gatherings and distance of 2 m from other people. Access to the supermarket is controlled by security-guards, one person leaves the next is allowed to go in. A metal-shop is not necessary for basic survival, they might be closed. It's 1 village to the south and I can go via the fields/agricultural zone. Maybe, if I do it as my daily exercise and go with the bicycle to check?

[DeniseO30]

What your are doing Dody is called a counterbore you can actually buy drill bits that do that, but a spade or forstner bit should do the job, I usually do the counterbore first then drill of the deep hole, because the point of the drill bit usually leaves a center mark for the drill bit

[Dody]

Thank you Denise and yes, I usually do it this way too. Only, in this case, it was essential to get the holes as close to perfect as possible in a certain position and angle. Things I am still struggling with as far as accuracy goes. And I certainly didn't want to mess up this knee which took me ages to make. Doing it this way was the only solution I could find for myself in this situation. If you look closely, you'll find out they are still not perfect where I wanted them or where they should be, but it's not that far out. I'm kind of working around a problem I shouldn't have in the first place, if ... but we're not in a perfect world, so things are sometimes like they shouldn't be.

[Peerie Maa]

I have in my collection a brace bit made for counterboring bungs in deck planks with a round bar instead of a lead screw.
I found this new version online.
https://www.fine-tools.com/counterbore.html

[John Meachen]

To digress a bit-unwitting pun-I don't know whether it would help Dody to know that most holesaw pilot bits are 1/4 inch and that happens to be 6.35mm .I doubt that imperial sized steel rod or drill bits are too common in Portugal,but you never know.

[MN Dave]

I need these holes to be 12 mm, not the 6 mm I was drilling now. The reason is that I wanted to have a pilot-hole in the correct angle to use the hole-cutter from below. For the washers that is. For those who don't remember: only one side is planked yet. To do this as good as possible for me I needed a long pilot-bit for the cutter. I found one slightly longer, but not long enough. And I found a long 6.5 mm drill, which wouldn't fit in the adapter as only 6.4 mm goes in. So I had it machined down to 6.4 mm and a slit cut in.

Now trying if it works

1-IMG_0527.jpg

It does. Although I would have liked to go deeper. But no matter what I have tried be it slow or fast the machine gets stuck at this point and kicks back. I have worked with holecutters before. Not too often, and I had the machine kicking back before but never this aggressively and I always managed in the end. But this time it just wouldn't let me. Could this be because the wood of the backbone (I think it was Akazie or so, something super-hard to work with and blunting our tools within no time) is so hard?

I hope you have already cut the holes and this bit of advice is too late.
That looks difficult to get started. Once you have a complete round cut going, it should self-center and go smoothly. I would tack a thin piece of pine on there, 6mm or so, drill the pilot holes through the pine from the inside and see if the hole saw can get a start in the pine. Once you have an uninterrupted cut going it should settle down and run smoothly. once the hole is through the pine and into the boat, you can get the pine out of the way. Whatever you do, don't do what I do and forget to drill in short bursts so as not to overheat the hole saw and ruin the temper. Once overheated, they can be sharpened well enough for soft wood, but cutting hard wood with a soft saw is slow work. Something I have not tried, but will next time, is to drill a small hole near the inside edge of the hole once it is down a few mm. When using a plug cutter, it goes much easier if the edge of the hole breaks into the adjacent hole enough to let the chips out. A hole saw might also benefit from a 'chip drain'.

It should be difficult to spend time within 2m of anyone else on a bicycle. Gathering on a beach is probably not allowed, but there isn't a more difficult place for a virus to survive than hot sand with all the solar UV. This is the Johns Hopkins map that is updated frequently showing the status of the virus. It is probably the most up to date and accurate information available. The daily increase tab on the small map in the lower right corner will be interesting to watch.

[Dody]

I don't believe this. I'm in the wrong film. I got it wrong even though I had drilled the pilot-hole! What kind of an idiot, moron whatever am I??? How much worse can this get?



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[Peerie Maa]

^ not a problem. Just glue some hardwood dowels into the wrong hole, then clean out the right holes from the top.
Did you finish the counterbores? If so don't worry, be happy.
If you have to do more work on the counterbores, replace the pilot drill bit with a plain rod, so that it has to follow the pilot hole.

[Dody]

Thank you Nick! I just plugged it, now waiting for the epoxy to cure. And no, I haven't finished the counterbores. That's what I actually wanted to try now, but discovered my stupid mistake. And I think I'm double to blame - the original pilot-hole I drilled from the top was 6 mm, but the pilot-bit in the holecutter is 6.5 mm. Maybe, if I had first got the hole to 6.5 mm and then done the holecutter? Never mind, it's done now, but I'm pretty upset about myself.
And Nick, this tool looks awesome!!!

[Dody]

To digress a bit-unwitting pun-I don't know whether it would help Dody to know that most holesaw pilot bits are 1/4 inch and that happens to be 6.35mm .I doubt that imperial sized steel rod or drill bits are too common in Portugal,but you never know.

Thanks John! I was using a 6.5 mm pilot-bit in this case, which I had machined down at the end to 6.4 mm so it would go into the fitting.

[Dody]

I hope you have already cut the holes and this bit of advice is too late.
That looks difficult to get started. Once you have a complete round cut going, it should self-center and go smoothly. I would tack a thin piece of pine on there, 6mm or so, drill the pilot holes through the pine from the inside and see if the hole saw can get a start in the pine. Once you have an uninterrupted cut going it should settle down and run smoothly. once the hole is through the pine and into the boat, you can get the pine out of the way. Whatever you do, don't do what I do and forget to drill in short bursts so as not to overheat the hole saw and ruin the temper. Once overheated, they can be sharpened well enough for soft wood, but cutting hard wood with a soft saw is slow work. Something I have not tried, but will next time, is to drill a small hole near the inside edge of the hole once it is down a few mm. When using a plug cutter, it goes much easier if the edge of the hole breaks into the adjacent hole enough to let the chips out. A hole saw might also benefit from a 'chip drain'.

It should be difficult to spend time within 2m of anyone else on a bicycle. Gathering on a beach is probably not allowed, but there isn't a more difficult place for a virus to survive than hot sand with all the solar UV. This is the Johns Hopkins map that is updated frequently showing the status of the virus. It is probably the most up to date and accurate information available. The daily increase tab on the small map in the lower right corner will be interesting to watch.

Awesome, thank you Dave, great advice! And no, it's not too late, to the contrary as I've got to wait now till the epoxy cures ...

And thanks for the map, it's interesting to see how things go elsewhere. Portugal uses the same data-base and system for a local map https://covid19.min-saude.pt/ponto-d...l-em-portugal/ which is quite interesting too as they refined it now for the local regions. At the moment there are no reported cases in my area, which is Nazaré, but 7 cases in Leiria. Of course, this doesn't mean anything coz someone might have caught it but didn't get tested yet. In the news of our townhall they were saying yesterday that someone got tested yesterday, so I guess we're not out of it here.

The whole situation is getting a bit very difficult for the sailing-community. There is no ports people can enter coming from the sea. At least in Portugal one is allowed to dock, refuel and restock with water,but for 14 days at least they are not allowed to step ashore. In other places people have to stay at anchor for at least 14 days, which can be difficult depending on the weather. Or, worse even, boats get chucked out of ports. I heard of a Norwegian family with 2 kids on board they wanted to tow out of Curaçao. A friend of mine in Spain told me they want to close the marina and chuck everyone out - we're talking of a major port for pleasure-craft in the south of Spain with a lot of liveabords who have no-where to go. Luckily another friend of mine arrived after 66 days at sea in Hawaii and they still did let them in. One of my mates is still at sea - he left Nazaré 2 weeks ago. Originally he wanted to head for Madeira, but Madeira was closed. Plan B was to head for the Canary Islands, but they got closed too. His destination are the Cape Verde Islands, so he wanted to go straight to the Cape Verdes, but they got closed in the meantime also.

[MN Dave]

The whole situation is getting a bit very difficult for the sailing-community. There is no ports people can enter coming from the sea. At least in Portugal one is allowed to dock, refuel and restock with water, but for 14 days at least they are not allowed to step ashore. In other places people have to stay at anchor for at least 14 days, which can be difficult depending on the weather. Or, worse even, boats get chucked out of ports. I heard of a Norwegian family with 2 kids on board they wanted to tow out of Curaçao. A friend of mine in Spain told me they want to close the marina and chuck everyone out - we're talking of a major port for pleasure-craft in the south of Spain with a lot of liveabords who have no-where to go. Luckily another friend of mine arrived after 66 days at sea in Hawaii and they still did let them in. One of my mates is still at sea - he left Nazaré 2 weeks ago. Originally he wanted to head for Madeira, but Madeira was closed. Plan B was to head for the Canary Islands, but they got closed too. His destination are the Cape Verde Islands, so he wanted to go straight to the Cape Verdes, but they got closed in the meantime also.

Somehow the sailing community needs to convince the authorities that a sailboat that has been at sea for two or more weeks has been as quarantined as they could possibly be and is in need of shelter and supplies. They are in more danger from the people on shore than the people on shore are from them. The crew has been quarantined since the day they left the previous port, so even after only a week out, they only need to complete the 14 days, starting when they left the previous port. If this simple logic can get to the CDC, they can pass it to the world in a matter of hours.

[Dody]

It's done! Not on my own, to the contrary. Albertino was working on the other side of the yard. He came over to have a look, saw that I was struggling and within no time the counterbores and the holes were done. What I noticed is, that it makes a tremendous difference if you can drill a hole with 2 people where one is making sure about at least one angle.

Unfortunately I can't do the lovely solution with the metal strip on top as the angle doesn't do for it. And unfortunately we were too fast to counterbore from the top first. Never mind. He suggested to do the counterbores on the top with a chisel and a lot of patience ...



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[Dody]

That's about the angle I have to deal with, and it makes Nick's suggestion very attractive:



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[Peerie Maa]

He suggested to do the counterbores on the top with a chisel and a lot of patience ...

This. It will not take long as you only need flats rather than counterbores.

[MN Dave]

This. It will not take long as you only need flats rather than counterbores.

Nick is right. Again. Having said that, I would still consider doing it on the bench and using a pine scrap to get the hole saw started. You can saw the pine perpendicular to the hole after putting the scrap in place so you don't have to have a good match for the angle until the scrap is in place. Having considered it, I might still just do it Nick's way.

I don't believe this. I'm in the wrong film. I got it wrong even though I had drilled the pilot-hole! What kind of an idiot, moron whatever am I??? How much worse can this get?

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No one will ever see it. Delete the post before anyone else replies with quote and preserves the picture. I can delete this comment and we will all pretend it never happened.

[Phil Y]

Hey Dody, I missed all this these last few days. Too much time in the bilge reading about the virus. All I have to offer is that I mostly drill crooked and can't saw to a line to save my life. You are doing great work! I think I read somewhere that everyone makes mistakes, it's how you cover them up that counts. The situation for cruisers is getting horrendous. Stay safe.

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[Phil Y]

That's about the angle I have to deal with, and it makes Nick's suggestion very attractive:



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That looks like a great spot for a hardwood wedge. Although it may just split I suppose. Maybe just lay up a chunk of fibreglass.

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[MN Dave]

This is not a suggestion for Dody at this late date. Someone else out there has the same problem or may read this and with more time might be able to use this.

Even if you can remove the knee from the boat and work on a bench, the reverse counterbore is piloted in a way that should run reasonably smoothly on the angled surface witht he interrupted cut.

These range from 1/4 to 2" in 1/16 to 1/8" increments.

http://www.craigtools.com/catalog/re...rse-spotfacers
High Speed Steel Reverse Spotfacers
190 Series

Description

190 SERIES reverse spotfacers are designed for use in restricted areas where conventional spotfacers cannot be utilized. Made from the finest high speed tool steel. Cutters are furnished with 1/32 corner radius. Special sizes subject to quotation.

Reverse Cutter Step Pilots

[Dody]

This. It will not take long as you only need flats rather than counterbores.

That's true, flats with different angles for each of the 3 (4) bolts. Still, it would be nice if I could manage to do it in the shape of the washer instead of cutting out a square piece.

It's on the bench and I've tried with chisels on the lowest of the holes, the one were the angle for me is the easiest to achieve, and it didn't go too bad. Not perfect but not bad. Just to give it a try I started with the second one. Free-hand I found it difficult to get the correct angle started and the same will be happening with the next one. I'll give it a bit more of a thinking-session tonight. Right now I think having some kind of a guide/straight-edge in miniature-format attached to the side would be something that will help me tremendously - but, the night is just starting and I might wake up with a better solution :-D!

[Dody]

No one will ever see it. Delete the post before anyone else replies with quote and preserves the picture. I can delete this comment and we will all pretend it never happened.

Lol, thanks Dave, but no :-D! I'm simply not very good at drilling long angled holes and this kind of thing happens, no matter how much I try. The post stays and all people who haven't got this problem will feel super-happy that it's only me and possibly a few others instead of them, which is nice!

[Dody]

Somehow the sailing community needs to convince the authorities that a sailboat that has been at sea for two or more weeks has been as quarantined as they could possibly be and is in need of shelter and supplies. They are in more danger from the people on shore than the people on shore are from them. The crew has been quarantined since the day they left the previous port, so even after only a week out, they only need to complete the 14 days, starting when they left the previous port. If this simple logic can get to the CDC, they can pass it to the world in a matter of hours.

I love this logic Dave, this is exactly the point! And now that you're mentioning it I don't get it why nobody has been using this point yet in the discussions. Trouble seems that everyone is kind of single-minded for his/her own problem with kind of shaded eyes in any other direction. For example, some german-speaking sailors have started a petition to the German state, asking to arrange ports for them to enter and stock up in the Azores, Madeira and the Canary Islands because they would like to come back from the Caribbean and they make it very urgent. Completely missing the point that from these places there is no-where to go either. And they are also missing the point that there are thousands out there facing the same problem for different parts of the world. Just in case someone would like to see the petition, it's here: https://www.change.org/p/ausw%C3%A4r...6-93a679369412 . At least my sailing-association has started working on the problem with a much broader view on things worldwide, apparently together with cruising-associations of other countries. I'll get in touch with them concerning your point. Sometimes you can't see the forest because of all these trees :-D!

Hey Dody, I missed all this these last few days. Too much time in the bilge reading about the virus. All I have to offer is that I mostly drill crooked and can't saw to a line to save my life. You are doing great work! I think I read somewhere that everyone makes mistakes, it's how you cover them up that counts. The situation for cruisers is getting horrendous. Stay safe.

Thanks Phil, it feels so good to know I'm not the only one :-D!!! And of course, I've also been keeping me busy reading and reading heaps about the virus the last days. Meanwhile I'm trying my best participating in social isolation. But it's strange. I never had a problem to stay on my own for months in secluded anchorages or days on end out at sea. But right here and now it's difficult. Several friends of mine are in the yard with their fishing-boats doing some major works coz the Sardine-season won't start before May so there is a lot of activity and of course everyone comes over for a little chat or a laugh, trying to keep distance but it just doesn't really work. Because when they are out at sea working there is absolutely no way they could keep a distance. Then there are my friends of the fishing-boat Avo Ricardo I used to spend every evening with for the last years and we always would have dinner together. Which we don't now. Their workshop is less than 200 m from me, but I know perfectly well that if I go over there we'll end up eating together, spending the evening together although they have isolated themselves and don't let others come into the workshop. They have the same problem on board of course, even worse because they all sleep aboard as they are from up north in Vila do Conde, Caixinhas and Povoa de Varzim. 5 aft, 4 in the bowsection and Ze in the wheelhouse. Imagine the magnitude if one should get infected! I really miss being there, but that's no help in the situation we're in!

[Rumars]

That's true, flats with different angles for each of the 3 (4) bolts. Still, it would be nice if I could manage to do it in the shape of the washer instead of cutting out a square piece.

It's on the bench and I've tried with chisels on the lowest of the holes, the one were the angle for me is the easiest to achieve, and it didn't go too bad. Not perfect but not bad. Just to give it a try I started with the second one. Free-hand I found it difficult to get the correct angle started and the same will be happening with the next one. I'll give it a bit more of a thinking-session tonight. Right now I think having some kind of a guide/straight-edge in miniature-format attached to the side would be something that will help me tremendously - but, the night is just starting and I might wake up with a better solution :-D!

Take a hoseclamp and some scrap wood and tie a chisel to the bolt. The bolt will act as your guide and the wood as your spacer to achieve the washer radius. Use a narrow chisel and you can make a nice circle. If you have a Dremel with a flexible atachement you could probably router it out.