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Thread: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

  1. #981
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    How many kW is the water heater? Amperage will be Watts/Volts. The temperature rise is a function of Watts and flow rate. If your heater can run on a 30A breaker, it has to be less than 7200W. I don't know how much less, but I don't think you can run 30 amps continuously on a 30 amp breaker.

    A 5.5kW heater takes 23A. If your tap water is at 10C, 5500W can give you up to 2.5 l/min at 41C

    Watts x .24 / (temperature rise) x 60 / 1000 = liters/minute
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  2. #982
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    Ahh, the joys of single phase water heaters. When I was in our Air force, we sometimes drew overnight recruit babysitting duty. The duty office had an attached en suite bathroom with one of those - the options seemed to be a miserable dribble of hot water, or a pathetic flow of body temperature water. Neither very appealing when it was -5C outside first thing in the morning, and not much warmer in the bathroom!
    Funny story, I got a phone call one evening I was on babysitting, from a distraught mum who hadn't heard from her little darling since joining up. This kids name wasn't on the list, five minutes later, I'd established that none of my batch of recruits recognized the name, and a call to the MP's revealed this individual wasn't even on this airbase. "Mum, how long ago did precious join up"? "Oh, just over a year ago" she says. It was nearly a coffee out the nose moment, as recruit training was only around three months long. I diplomatically informed her of all this, and suggested that she contact the base admin section the next day, as they should have better information.
    Anyway, good luck with the plumbing project. Correctly sized cables should help some as they'll have a lower voltage drop, and you need a super economy showerhead to minimise flow and maximize heating time.

    Pete
    Cool story Pete! But with the heater, that's not really what I was hoping for to be honest. Well, I'm not gonna bring it back yet but will give it a try with the other cables tomorrow. There must be a simple reason why the temperature at the outlet of the heater only comes up to 27º C when the heater is set to 55º C, and voltage drop caused by the thin wires does sound very plausible. And now it makes sense that they were talking of a different shower-head with the smaller unit (the one I didn't buy), possibly I will have to have it for this one as well? Guess I'll know more by tomorrow evening.

    Bathroom temperatures, that got me thinking. A heated bathroom, when did I have this last time? I'm sure there have been one or two occasions since 2002 that I had the luxury of a heated bathroom in winter but I don't remember where and when. Living on the boat makes one change typical patterns. Nowadays I only take showers in daytime on days when the sun is out, and I prefer to wait for another day or so if it blows a hoolie with cold temperatures. Nothing worse than having "survived" the process till you're back in your protective clothes and then, your hair still wet, going out in the real cold. Grrrrrrrrr!!!!
    fair winds, Dody
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  3. #983
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    We've been fine with the fires thanks Dody. One was a few KM away and made us nervous but no problem for us.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk
    Thank you, glad to hear that Phil!
    fair winds, Dody
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  4. #984
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    How many kW is the water heater? Amperage will be Watts/Volts. The temperature rise is a function of Watts and flow rate. If your heater can run on a 30A breaker, it has to be less than 7200W. I don't know how much less, but I don't think you can run 30 amps continuously on a 30 amp breaker.

    A 5.5kW heater takes 23A. If your tap water is at 10C, 5500W can give you up to 2.5 l/min at 41C

    Watts x .24 / (temperature rise) x 60 / 1000 = liters/minute
    The data for the model I bought are these:

    1-IMG_0407.jpg

    After installation you set it up to the power available, 6.6 kW (28.7 A) or 8.8 kW (38.3A). I've set up mine to 28.7 A. With the correct wiring and your formula I should get 2.8 L/minute at 45º C if I got that right (assuming the water comes in with 10º C). So, with only 27º C at the outlet of the heater (not the shower-head!) something is really wrong. I guess it's the thin wires, otherwise a wrong setting somewhere or the heater with a problem
    Last edited by Dody; 01-19-2020 at 01:48 PM.
    fair winds, Dody
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  5. #985
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    A normal domestic showerhead will flow something over 10l/min typically, an "economy" one will be down around 7l/min, and Dave's maths suggests you need something around half that. I'd try a bit of sticky tape or something over half the holes in the showerhead, just as a quick and easy experiment if the wiring doesn't fix the problem. And you don't need me to tell you to be careful with that!

    Pete
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  6. #986
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    A normal domestic showerhead will flow something over 10l/min typically, an "economy" one will be down around 7l/min, and Dave's maths suggests you need something around half that. I'd try a bit of sticky tape or something over half the holes in the showerhead, just as a quick and easy experiment if the wiring doesn't fix the problem. And you don't need me to tell you to be careful with that!

    Pete
    Looks like Pete got the same answer as I did. So how fast does your set up fill a bucket? You can turn the water flow down with the shower valve.

    If you are stuck with a poor flow rate due to the limited capacity, you could always try adding an expansion tank or a fat section of pipe to build up a larger volume of hot water, then run the shower at a higher rate for a short time. The fat pipe would buy you a short burst of hot water followed by the tankless heater's infamous cold water sandwich. An expansion tank for a hot water system has a bladder that fills with pressurized water like an expansion tank for a well pump, but designed to withstand higher temperatures. You can throttle the valve to fill the expansion tank with hot water, then run the shower at a higher rate intermittently. That would keep the heater running slowly enough to make hot water while you vary the flow to have a more comfortable shower for short periods like getting started and rinsing hair.

    Watts W/calorie delta T sec/min 1000 ml/l = Watts x .24 / (temperature rise) x 60 / 1000 = liters/minute
    8800 x 0.24 / 17 x 60 / 1000 = 7.45 liters/minute

    If you don't mind archaic units as used in the US, this might help: https://images.homedepot-static.com/...baad6e26be.pdf
    Last edited by MN Dave; 01-21-2020 at 12:50 AM.
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  7. #987
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Thank you both Pete and Dave, the waterflow is exactly the problem, I can confirm this now!

    What should have been a "5 minute job" turned out into something else

    2-IMG_0409.jpg

    3-IMG_0410.jpg

    Never mind it's done now but I will never ever again use rigid cable - even though this is the standard according to whichever Norm in House-installations!

    As before my mate came over to deal with the electric box. All wired up a test. Before he was measuring between 21 and 24 Amps at the fuse-box, now 27 and 28 amps. Still the temperature of the water coming out wasn't too different. We called the company and a technician called us back. Turns out the water-pressure is too high. I got myself a valve and installed it at the tube of the water intake. Once this was adjusted correctly I had 53º C of water coming out (10º C coming in), and I only lost 2º C on the way to the shower-head. So far so good. I measured the amount of water coming out at the max temperature in 1 minute, it's 2.25 Liters with the 53º C setting. Of course it would be a bit more with less temperature but I prefer to adjust this bit at the tap.

    The shower-head I've got actually has 4 different settings and seems to cope pretty well, only the setup is terrible as it's mounted near to vertical which is crap. However, I gave it a try today around midday (10º C outside and in the workshop). Yes, it is working. Yes, the temperature is stable. Yes, the temperature of the water is very comfortable. And yes, the flow of the water is acceptable when I hold the shower-head horizontally over me. Acceptable, but great is something else.

    I don't want to fiddle around with all kind of things and I've still got till the 25th in case I want to give it back or swap it for something different. The guys of Docapesca are back in their office in about half an hour, I will check with them the difference in price if they set me up with 40 Amps - if the difference is just a tiny amount I will go for the 40 Amps and run the thing with the 8.8 Amps setting. Even if the outcome is less then the awesome-looking 7.45 Liters Dave has calculated it will definitely be more than what I've got now, quite a lot more, and I think I could be happy with that.
    As I don't want a tank, my other option is a gas-heater with bottled gas. My washers have finally arrived, so I'll also drive the few extra K's to Leiria (Leroy Merlin, the shop where I bought this one) and have a look what kind of gas-heating-systems they've got and what the prices are.
    fair winds, Dody
    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain
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  8. #988
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    I confess one of my bug-bears was paying good money for a crap shower. One of the advantages at least of being stuck on terra-firma should at least be a decent shower. I see your bathroom has a nautical theme too!
    Ian. AKA RusBot

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    A sure sign of the Apocalypse.

    I agree with Skaraborgcraft.

  9. #989
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Yes Ian, that's exactly what it's about :-D!!! Underway or at anchor I don't mind having a catwash in the cockpit, a quick dip in the sea even if it's a bit fresh or one of these cold showers on the beach they forgot to turn off for winter. And many (not all) Marina's have warm water in showers in winter - if I happen to be in a Marina. But landlocked as I am at the moment, setting up a shower, I do want to have a decent one!

    The exciting news is: I've got the nuts and washers now!

    I've been talking with Docapesca: the increase in power will cost me 5.57 Euros a month. After getting my stainless-stuff I checked out Leroy Merlin (where I bought the water-heater) and had a chat with the people there. It looks like, to get what I want, I'll have to chip in at least another 150 Euros for the heater, not including anything concerning installation, and there is lots of room to go higher. Even better: what I completely overlooked is, that I need a chimney for the exhaust-gases, which means I've got to break a hole into the wall or the roof somewhere. For sure I can ask, but I can't see them smile happily about it. And I don't like the amount of extra work. Which leaves me with getting this thing I've got to work or jump over my own shadow as they would say where I grew up and go for a tank or "cylinder" as they call it here.

    Taking the road of the least resistance I've ordered the 40 Amps circuit-breaker and will pick it up together with the 50 amps one for the mains (coz that's the increase I'll be paying for) tomorrow. Hopefully I can sort things with Docapesca straight away and don't have to wait for weeks. Also today I got myself a new setup for the showerhead including a head suitable for 4 - 9 Liters. If that doesn't turn out to be an acceptable solution it's got to be a tank as much as I dread it and move the whole electricity back to where I am right now. Never a dull moment and still no progress on Tonga ... well, at least, since today, I've got the ingredients together for the next step!
    Last edited by Dody; 01-21-2020 at 06:24 PM.
    fair winds, Dody
    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain
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  10. #990
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    Dody here's a shot of my transom knee. I reckon the bolts are 10mm, and probably made from copper rod. That's been used a lot elsewhere on the boat. Often one end riveted over to form a head, and the other end threaded to take a nut.

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  11. #991
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Finally, the never ending shower-problem is solved! After altering the whole system to 50 Amps (that was the next higher stage I would be paying for) I ran the shower and actually got 3.8 L/Minute of water with the temperature of 53º C out of it. I tried having a shower and found it not acceptable for me. So, I unmounted the waterheater, took the 6mm square cable off, made sure it looks nice and clean, got it back in the packet and went back to the shop. Turns out they don't take anything electrical back once it's been installed. Only after I explained that it works perfectly well according to the specifications but that I am not capable to live with only 3.8 Liter of hot water per minute for a shower they re-considered, took the heater back and gave me a voucher - lucky me!!! With the voucher (and some additional dosh) I bought a tank-heater of 80 Liters, one of those with 2 tanks, heating them separately from each other, and the only one having energy-class B at least (all the rest was C or worse). A friend helped me to get it upstairs when I found myself struggling getting the 29 Kilos up the ladder (didn't want to damage it!). Of course I was missing several parts for the final installation so I gave in and had another shower at the Clube Naval. And of course I had some leaks to deal with, but once all that was sorted I could fill it with water, rig a semipermanent socket on the wall, plug it in and see what happens. An hour later it was ready for the first shower, by then it was too late in the day for my taste. The next day Yaaaaaaeeeeehhhhh, it was working, I had a good shower with an abundance of hot water and good water-pressure! As I don't want to pay for the extra in electricity now that I don't need it any more, we had to change the main-fuse back to 32 amps and done!

    1-IMG_0423.jpg

    1-IMG_0424.jpg

    1-IMG_0425.jpg

    In my euphoria that they took the other heater back I also bought a mirror. Not that I need much of it but I found it a bit frustrating when trying to find out if one of the new sweaters or cardigans I had knitted would fit alright I had to walk halfway around the port to the office of Docapesca because they have mirrored glass in the windows downstairs. With the width of 70 cm max there wasn't much on offer, this was the longest I could find. As it's only for me I don't really get why I was installing it on purpose at a height of 1.80 m but never mind. It works for what I wanted it to work so it stays like this! And I swapped the mixer for a new one with the adjustment on the side. It must have been 20 times each shower that I accidentally hit it and changed the temperature or the waterpressure. Now no more!!!

    1-IMG_0453.jpg

    Meanwhile my car had to go to the inspection - and failed!!! Shockabsorbers front and lights not properly adjusted. I'm actually a bit glad about it, because it's much more than a year since I keep asking my mechanic to change at least the front ones and he kept talking me out of it. Which always made me think I was maybe too spoiled because I was driving sportscars all my former life, so I let it go. Got an appointment with the garage to take it up there Tuesday evening for him to do the job on Wednesday.

    And now, finally, time for boatwork!!!
    Last edited by Dody; 02-07-2020 at 08:28 PM.
    fair winds, Dody
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  12. #992
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Thank you heaps Phil about the photos and the 10 mm Info, this is really helpful for me and gives me a much better feeling about using the thinner bolts!!! Because:

    Today I went to check and work out what kind of bolt-lengths I need. I really had my doubts about the M16 bolts at the knee, so I had a look at the washers first. Roughly taped into place there is not enough room for M16 washers where they would need to go. Sure, I could shorten them etc.. But I think M12 will be good enough in this tiny space

    Washers M16

    1-IMG_0414.jpg

    Washers M12

    1-IMG_0416.jpg

    To measure the proper lengths I need I used blue tape for a simulation to avoid nails or stuff

    1-IMG_0420.jpg

    I didn't bother to make a new drawing but worked it out with the old one. Ups, I can't add this as a PDF .... !

    However, I worked out the lengths and the lengths of the threads and went to the shop in the next village. As it was nearly 5 pm today by the time I got there they couldn't do it right away, but probably on Monday or Tuesday. So, it's a start and I'm really happy that it's finally going on after so many obstacles of the homemade-world!!!
    Last edited by Dody; 02-07-2020 at 05:26 PM.
    fair winds, Dody
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  13. #993
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Thank you heaps Phil about the photos and the 10 mm Info, this is really helpful for me and gives me a much better feeling about using the thinner bolts!!!

    Today I went to check and work out what kind of bolt-lengths I need. I really had my doubts about the M16 bolts at the knee, so I had a look at the washers. Roughly taped into place there is not enough room for M16 washers where they would need to go. Sure, I could shorten them etc.. But I think M12 will be good enough in this tiny space

    Washers M16

    1-IMG_0414.jpg

    Washers M12

    1-IMG_0416.jpg

    To measure the proper lengths I need I used blue tape for a simulation to avoid nails or stuff

    1-IMG_0420.jpg

    I didn't bother to make a new drawing but worked it out with the old one. Ups, I can't add this as a PDF .... !

    However, I worked out the lengths and the lengths of the threads and went to the shop in the next village. As it was nearly 5 pm today by the time I got there they couldn't do it right away, but probably on Monday or Tuesday. So, it's a start and I'm really happy that it's finally going on after so many obstacles of the homemade-world!!!
    Can you drill three holes in a strip of metal of your choice? Then all you have to worry about is will the socket fit on the second and third nut.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  14. #994
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Awesome idea Nick, yes, of course I can!!!

    This would mean I don't have to counterbore on the top for the washers to fit in a 90 degree angle to the bolt. Only ... hm ... have to work something out to bend the metal-strip to the curve of the knee ... and the strip shouldn't be too thin but getting close to the thickness of the washers ... Actually, a little bit of pre-bending and then pulling in with the centre-bolt first should do the job ... I think! Great!!!
    fair winds, Dody
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  15. #995
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Good job on the shower! I spent a few days last week on an offshore gas platform, 100km off the coast of Sarawak. Guess what sort of totally useless heater they had for the shower? I thought of you, while trying to get clean under a lukewarm dribble!
    Mind you, it was 30C outside, so just a matter of making myself decent, before stepping outside to drip dry in the breeze.

    Pete
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  16. #996
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    How to describe the possible problem with a single strip? The bolts all point to one spot in space, like spokes on a wheel. The distance between them at their ends will be less than the distance between them at the surface of the knee. I suppose you have to have the strip in place before you drive the bolts in from the outside?

    Look what I rigged up to heat my spa. A wood fired heater from 1940 or so.

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  17. #997
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Hi Dody:
    Not much from me of late, but I've been following your trials! For the washer problem, I've just trimmed the edges if theres no clearance for them to sit side by side. Vise, hacksaw, and a bit of cleanup with a file. The metal strip would be more elegant, but trickier, unless you can clamp it in place before drilling from the other side (as others have said.)
    Happy to see your shower solution!
    Brian

  18. #998
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    How to describe the possible problem with a single strip? The bolts all point to one spot in space, like spokes on a wheel. The distance between them at their ends will be less than the distance between them at the surface of the knee. I suppose you have to have the strip in place before you drive the bolts in from the outside?
    If the bolts are that overlong you won't be able to get the nuts on.
    Drive one bolt, and nip up the nut, trim the bolt if it needs it. Wash and repeat.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  19. #999
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    The bolts are A4 stainless if I recall correctly. When the shop cuts them to size, the cutting tool will leave some bits of metal behind that can cause the cut ends of the stainless to rust. If they clean up the cut with a grinder, the grinding wheel can also leave embedded bits of iron if it has ever been used to grind steel. A steel wire brush also contaminates stainless.

    I would ask if they did anything to passivate the cut ends, and they will either know what you are talking about or not. If they understand the problem and have done something, they will say what they did, and if not or don't understand the question they will probably say not to worry about it. If they don't understand, it won't do any good to argue, so smile and accept the fact that they don't see a problem.

    Passivating is any process that will remove the iron. The simplest way is to polish up the cut with clean sandpaper, sand blasting with fresh grit is better, but more involved, various acid baths do a good job, but are more difficult. The aerospace standard is hot nitric acid, but you can do this with an easier, safer acid. A4 is the least problematic grade to passivate, so citric, oxalic (wood bleach), and phosphoric will all work. Most rust removers will be phosphoric acid. I had good results cleaning off some rust that had just started with some Ospho or some such rust remover. The rust came off and didn't come back. Long winded way to say that yo might want to do something, but keep it simple.

    https://www.besttechnologyinc.com/pa...tion-solution/
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Thank you Dave to remind me, I already had completely forgotten about this!!!

    Concerning the strip, yes, I see what you all mean, thank you heaps for the input! As I'm planning to go with the M12 bolts I should have quite a bit more space than with the M16, which was the main reason for my decision of using the M12. It will still be a bit more complicated than with washers, but the strip is such a neat and clever solution, I really want to try this out first. If I don't succeed, I can still go back to washers, no harm in that :-D!

    I checked the washers, they've got a thickness of 3 mm and I'll see what I can dig up. There might still be a scrap-piece in my workshop, otherwise I will need quite some of this stuff as backing later when I can start installing the deck-hardware one day, so I wouldn't loose anything if I buy a matching strip now (they come in 6 m lengths here).

    To get the holes in the correct position I thought of using a strong carton or scrap of thin ply bent into place once the holes are drilled, drill through it from below and use this a the template for the holes in the stainless, pre-bending it afterwards..

    And with the drillbits I might have overdone it a bit, but then these guys don't stay sharp forever and I still haven't developed the proper skills to sharpen them. This is what I managed to get my hands on (16 mm on the left, 12 mm on the right) and I think I can do something with it:

    1-IMG_0456.jpg

    Having to wait for the threads being cut is coming just at the right moment: the WSL (World Surf League) has confirmed Tuesday for the Big Wave Challenge here in Nazaré, and the big swells expected from storm Ciara much further north have already started to form. Everybody is super-excited, doing last-minute maintenance on the jetskis and the boards and is getting ready to have a go starting this evening. So, I'll take a little break after weeks and weeks of rushing around and hardly getting anywhere and enjoy the very special nature of the place I'm in: watching the waves and the surf!

    Oh, and after this place seems to have been dormant for several years as far as life around boats other than fishing goes (me being the exception) it seems to get a bit more lively. Sunday a week ago on my way for coffee I noticed a new boat in the Marina on the southern side. Easy to see, because there were only 2 boats for months. Hey, I know this boat! Harmonii, a Najad 49. We were neighbors on the first pontoon in the Marina of Almerimar/Andalucia/Spain in 2002/3. Wonder if it's still the same owner? Yes, it was! Although it's been 17 years Keith instantly recognized me. Lots of talking and catching up, Harmonii has now over 94.000 Miles on the clock (she was brand spanking new then), he had reserved a place here for the next years, wants to do some quick maintenance now, then participate in the OSTAR from Plymouth to Newport on the 10th of May and then back to Nazaré.
    Dave, a friend of mine who had spent the last 3 years in the Algarve with his Nicholson 57 is booked to come back in June, I have a new French liveaboard neighbour working away on his fibreglass boat, some Dutch people with a Tug-boat and a sailing-boat have arrived to go on the hardstanding to do some long long jobs, an Irishman with an 18 m Steel-Sloop is working away on the other side preparing to go to the Cape Verdes and Christine and Steve of Merrymaid finally have come back doing some work on their boat which was built in Tasmania and has been here in the boatyard since 2005 or so. It's getting lively, awesome :-D!!!
    Last edited by Dody; 02-09-2020 at 07:23 PM.
    fair winds, Dody
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    With the shower I guess it'll never be worth it from the financial point of view or the time I spent sorting it out, but it's really nice! And the best of it only now slowly trickles in: can you imagine having the idea of taking a shower and simply just doing it? Just like that? Without having to collect your backpack with the soap, make sure the towel is in it and the flipflops, take the bicycle or walk, find the person on duty who normally happens not to be at the office no matter what time it is (during office-hours), ask nicely, get told it's a very inconvenient moment right now, pay your 1.50 Euros, walk with the person to the building with the shower they allow you to use, the person unlocks the door for you and if all goes well then, but only then, you can take a shower? I don't have to do this any more, it's awesome!!!

    Don't get this wrong please, I'm not complaining. This is part of the lifestyle I've chosen, and I certainly should be very happy about the fact that they found a solution for me and all the people having their boats in the boatyard at the moment of the takeover of the Marina by the Clube Naval. Who ever goes on the boatyard now does not have the same luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    Good job on the shower! I spent a few days last week on an offshore gas platform, 100km off the coast of Sarawak. Guess what sort of totally useless heater they had for the shower? I thought of you, while trying to get clean under a lukewarm dribble!
    Mind you, it was 30C outside, so just a matter of making myself decent, before stepping outside to drip dry in the breeze.

    Pete
    Thank you Pete! Oh my ... I mean army is one thing and anything luxury there is seen as something counter-productive. But torturing people like this at a workplace where they have no choice of escaping feels a bit tragic. Alright, it's in the tropics and they might have trouble with their watermaker or other access to freshwater. But when I read your post I was in stitches! What a simple invention like a shower can do to people halfway around the globe :-D!

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    How to describe the possible problem with a single strip? The bolts all point to one spot in space, like spokes on a wheel. The distance between them at their ends will be less than the distance between them at the surface of the knee. I suppose you have to have the strip in place before you drive the bolts in from the outside?

    Look what I rigged up to heat my spa. A wood fired heater from 1940 or so.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk
    Awesome Phil, I love this old woodfire-heater and the spa, well done, enjoy!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatsbgood View Post
    Hi Dody:
    Not much from me of late, but I've been following your trials! For the washer problem, I've just trimmed the edges if theres no clearance for them to sit side by side. Vise, hacksaw, and a bit of cleanup with a file. The metal strip would be more elegant, but trickier, unless you can clamp it in place before drilling from the other side (as others have said.)
    Happy to see your shower solution!
    Brian
    Thank you Brian!
    Last edited by Dody; 02-09-2020 at 07:36 PM.
    fair winds, Dody
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  22. #1002
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    Hi, are there any tricks to get a drillbit out of a hole where he doesn't want to come out?

    I can still turn it with the handle for thread cutting (I had squared the top of the drill with an angle-grinder for that purpose), I do manage to use the 90° angle-bit with my small cordless, but whatever I do it doesn't move a millimeter.

    And I can't lift the whole knee out to do it on the bench as the drill in the lower piece of the hole makes it impossible to get it out.

    The drill has to be moved up, but how? What am I overlooking?




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    Last edited by Dody; 03-19-2020 at 11:25 AM.
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  23. #1003
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Turn counter clockwise?

  24. #1004
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Yes, that's what I did all the time.
    fair winds, Dody
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  25. #1005
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Grip it with the biggest meanest set of mole grips that you can. Then hammer against the mole grips to drive it out whilst working the grips back and forward.
    If the mole grips slip. Plan B
    Borrow a die to cut a thread on it to take a nut. Then put packers under the nut and try winding it out.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  26. #1006
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Tough. Keeping everlastingly at it, as in Nick's plan A. I've had this problem but no clear recollection on what I did. A lesson about why to clear chips often. I wonder if the laminating glue is involved in the difficulty.

  27. #1007
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    The hole is packed with wood chips. They must compress as they are cut and expand slowly, forming a very tight plug. I have gotten bits stuck all too often by failing to clear the chips often enough (a lesson that I am incapable of learning). If this is a twist bit... Nick's idea is hard to improve on. Clamp and pound the clamp. Maybe try to twist while pounding on the end. If it almost all the way through, you might drive it the rest of the way, but I doubt it. A palm nailer might be handy. On second thought. twisting left while pounding the clamp should help get it started backing out. Nick's threading idea is great. You can generate a huge force with a nut. You just need to make a wedge to give the nut a flat bearing surface.

    If you used a spade bit or forstner, you might have a plug behind the bit that can be dug out by making a giant screw extractor out of a piece of pipe. You might even be able to hold or tape a shop vac over the end to suck out any dislodged chips.
    stuck.jpg
    Last edited by MN Dave; 03-19-2020 at 12:50 PM.
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  28. #1008
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Awesome Nick, that sounds promising, thank you heaps! And concerning Plan B I'm not sure if I maybe messed up this possibility by squaring the top 15 millimeters of the drill. But hopefully plan A will already be enough to make it work!
    fair winds, Dody
    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain
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  29. #1009
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Awesome Nick, that sounds promising, thank you heaps! And concerning Plan B I'm not sure if I maybe messed up this possibility by squaring the top 15 millimeters of the drill. But hopefully plan A will already be enough to make it work!
    Take the corners off to 8 sided and open the die out as wide as you can to start cutting and with care it should be doable. Then when it has started to cut a thread, tighten up the die for each cut until it takes the nut.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  30. #1010
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    Thank you Dave and also Thad!

    Woodchips might have added to the problem for sure, although it's a long drillbit (auger bit without a screw at the front) and the hole I was drilling can't be much longer than 10 or 15 mm deep (6 mm drill). The drill is unfortunately not very straight.

    I had drilled the 3 holes through the knee on the bench. When I got the brand-new auger-bit out of the packet it wasn't straight. I tried to rectify it, but no real success. As I'm not very good with long holes and accuracy, I went off to a proper tool-shop in Alcobaça (18 K east from here) and bought the long but expensive twistbit for 25 Euros. As you can see it still went wrong with the longest hole, I had to plug it and start new :-D

    1-IMG_0500.jpg

    1-IMG_0502.jpg

    As it is, I haven't got a lot of clearance around to continue the holes into the backbone. The first hole I managed to get started with the 90º adapter and do the rest of the drilling by removing the knee and using the started hole as a guide

    1-IMG_0505.jpg

    The next hole was too long for the shorter one of the 2 twistbits, and the longer twistbit couldn't be used because of the clearance on top. I had to use the auger coz it's shorter, and insert it into the hole before the knee is in place

    1-IMG_0511.jpg

    I started drilling the hole by hand, using the molegrips.

    1-IMG_0512.jpg
    fair winds, Dody
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  31. #1011
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    With these I could only do 3/4 of a turn, move the grips and start the next 3/4 of a turn. Every 10 turns I would take it all out, blow out the dust and continue. Progress was super-slow and I wasn't happy with it. Then I thought what if I could use the handle of the thread-cutting gear for this? So I squared the first 15 mm of the top with the anglegrinder.

    1-IMG_0515.jpg

    This worked surprisingly well and "within no time" I had the hole deep enough to drill the rest without guide. And now the last hole. To make sure it goes into the correct place I had inserted a little plug into hole number 2, but also to make it easier with removing for the woodchips and getting back to it.

    1-IMG_0518.jpg

    Again not enough clearance for the long twistbit, I had to use this same one. Inserting into the hole only worked by using the electric drill to get it in. Then knee and auger bit in place to start the hole. To my surprise I found enough clearance to use the 90º adapter and my smallest cordless. I got a bit carried away and I might have forgotten about the woodchips, but, as I said, the hole itself is not very deep but the drill is not straight.
    fair winds, Dody
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  32. #1012
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    Can you weld something to the end? Then you can use a pry bar, slide hammer, whatever.

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  33. #1013
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    It might not be possible to thread the drill if it is HS steel because it s the same as the die. The steel used for drill bits is typically M2 high speed steel. It is also used to make dies for tapping steel so the bit is just as hard as the die. M2 is good for drill bits because it is very heat resistant -- it does not soften until it gets extremely hot, as in dull red. At least you can test it with a file. If the file bites into the bit, it is soft enough to try threading.

    There is a chart showing the hardness that you get after tempering at different temperatures from https://www.hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data/steelM2 As you can see, if it is too hard, you have to heat it above 650C to soften it. You can eyeball the temperature with a color chart. A propane torch should get there without being able to get it too hot and harden it.
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  34. #1014
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    Default Re: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

    If the end of the drill shank is square,I would leave it like that and use Nick's recommendation of attaching the Mole grips and whacking from below.Twisting as well would probably be useful.It may help to wrap a strip of tape around the drill close to the knee to indicate if any progress is being made.If a bit of effort doesn't seem to be achieving anything-go to plan B.

  35. #1015
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    Can you believe it, it works!!!!!



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