Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

[Dody]

Thanks Rumars, I didn't for ages, but, well, of origin I do. Will be lots of new vocabulary for me but it might help me a lot to better understand why some things are done the way they are. Sooooo, both books are ordered !
The Bud McIntosh-book I've got to find on the other computer this evening, as this one gives me suppliers in OZ which is quite far away for a book that should be available somewhere around here.

[Dody]

Welcome Boatsbgood and thanks for your input!

And now that you've mentioned it, I remember one of these things people told me with steel-work: ALWAYS drill the hole bigger to allow for the protective paint - but I think they were talking about less, more like 0,5 mm or so?
Now the tricky bit with a samson-post is - well, at least in my opinion - that it's meant to deal with heavy loads (isn't this why they call it like this?). Thus, I actually want to have as little movement as possible at this point. Especially as wood is a bit softer than steel. Okay. I think I better go for M10 bolts instead of M8, and I'll get me a drill-bit of at least 10.5 mm. And once I've got the deck in place I can use my jig and drill into what I think is the centre with a very small drill, go below to check if it's perfectly in the centre, and then drill the big hole. I think I can minimize the room for error with this method a bit.

[Dody]

Just had a chat with Alec, he looked it up and it's 10.2 mm the diameter of the drill I'm supposed to use.

[Dody]

Done some thinking about my bodged-up deckbeams and had an idea I need to try out tomorrow:

First of all I need to find out how much out of general shape they have become by the wonderful treatment they received by my helper. From what is visible I know for sure, that the last one before the little cabin has a serious ditch in the center, and that the crown on the first one forward of the stern has a strange peak.

I've still got an offcut of a deckbeam, 1.29 m long, where the crown seems to be correct. If I clamp this piece against each deckbeam as a reference I might get a better idea about what is missing and what is too high as far as the curvature goes. Once I've got this sorted out - at least for the first and the last, I can work out how they are in relation and what needs to be done. Well, I hope I can!!!

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[Dody]

It does feel a little bit like progress, although in reality it's only in preparation to attack these deckbeams. The good news is: since I just installed the crosspiece I can stand on the deckbeam and it doesn't move a Milimeter !

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[MADOC1]

pretty cross piece! all looking very stout. how about choosing what you think is the best deckbeam and then make a pattern of it? you could use some inexpensive ply and trace the curve of the good deck beam on it and cut it out. lightweight and easy to move from station to station to check for differences. just a thought. good luck. always following-just don't have much to say.

jim

[Dody]

Thanks jim and good thinking, I hadn't thought of that! Unfortunately all the accessible ones are terribly butchered, so none of them would make me happy for an acceptable result. But I could just take the measurements from one in the forward part of the boat and draw a new one. The offcut of the deckbeam I've got doesn't look too bad, I will have a look with this one first and see if it helps in any way coz this would save me a bit of time. If not, I'll do it the way you suggested, thanks again !

[Peerie Maa]

Do as Jim suggests and create a template. Use it to mark the highs, or modify the template to match the lows. Then when the template is right, scribe every bean, end for ending the template to ensure symmetry.
When that is done lay a batten ford and aft over the full width of the beams to check that the lows are not too low before planing off any wood. Do not be too precious about maintaining the same camber curve on all beams, because the lines ford and aft are more critical. You do not want a humped deck which can happen with a flattish sheer at the deck edge and a lot of camber on the beams.
Fair all of the beams together, rather than each in turn, checking with your longitudinal batten as you go.

[Dody]

It just occurred to me that one or the other might wonder why this samson-post deckbeam was so instable?

Originally this deckbeam was installed with a cutout from the top to allow the counter-part below decks of the samson-post the room it needs. Unfortunately this cutout was so deep, that only 1.5 lams were left going completely from port to starboard. 1.5 lams don't offer a lot of stability. To overcome this part of the problem I laminated 2 additional 12 mm lams underneath as can be seen in this photo:

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It was much better, but the deckbeam still had some flexibility when one would sit on it. Not exactly what I want. After installing this crosspiece today, all the movement had stopped which I'm very happy about. Now of course I still need to clean up the Sikaflex and install the knees, which are already cut and varnished, hopefully ready to go in.

Another thing I'm quite happy about is access to the area aft of it when the deck is on. I had the idea to counterbore the bolt-holes in the crossbeam from the underside to allow for using bolts which don't stick out and hurt me if I have to crawl aft. There might be other ways to do it, I've done it this way: I didn't drill the hole all the way through from the top of the deckbeam, but stopped halfway in the crosspiece. After all 4 holes were done this way, I took the piece out, used a long 3.5 mm drillbit for the rest so I could find where the hole will come out. Flipped it over, did the counterboring and then drilled the hole completely through with the 8mm drillbit. Unfortunately I didn't get the 2 outer bolts perfectly right, they stick out about 4-5 mm. As it's a very tight fit I won't get them out to shorten a bit more without damaging something.
And what I don't like are the 2 empty holes in the knees aft. One is filled with the drillbit which broke off when hitting a nail, and with the other one I just lost my patience after hitting another nail and, instead of insisting, just drilled a hole next to it.

[Dody]

Thanks Nick, great advice!!!

Now there is one thing I'm not sure about. Towards the stern the deckbeams are getting shorter. If I only make one pattern I have to start with the widest deckbeam and shorten the pattern with moving aft. Unfortunately the widest deckbeam has a dip in the center which is at least 10 mm too low, if not more (I wanted to laminate a strip of my Scotch Fir lams on top there to get it right). So, in a way, it feels not right for me to use this one for the pattern and kind of copy the error to the shorter ones. And I definitely need a pattern or something else to help me determine the correct shape of it. How could I do this if not draw a completely new deckbeam-curve from measurements I take of a deckbeam further forward?

[Peerie Maa]

Thanks Nick, great advice!!!

Now there is one thing I'm not sure about. Towards the stern the deckbeams are getting shorter. If I only make one pattern I have to start with the widest deckbeam and shorten the pattern with moving aft. Unfortunately the widest deckbeam has a dip in the center which is at least 10 mm too low, if not more (I wanted to laminate a strip of my Scotch Fir lams on top there to get it right). So, in a way, it feels not right for me to use this one for the pattern and kind of copy the error to the shorter ones. And I definitely need a pattern or something else to help me determine the correct shape of it. How could I do this if not draw a completely new deckbeam-curve from measurements I take of a deckbeam further forward?

Make the best pattern that you can, even if redrawn. Make it in two pieces with screws into an overlap in the middle so that the half is the length of the aftermost beam. Then you can adjust the length to every beams breadth as you move ford and aft. Note from your photo of the stern that as I expected there seems to be less camber on the transom, increasing as it goes forward. Hence using a long batten spanning as many beams as you can.

[Dody]

Great idea to make the pattern in two parts, thanks Nick!!!

With the camber I did notice, but whatever I tried to explain the guy working for me just couldn't understand, or didn't want to. They need to find an easy flow to match everything further forward. I'm still not sure yet if I will manage 100 % perfect, but I think (hope) that, as long as a longish 12 mm plywood-batten laid lengthwise on top of the beams, touches each beam nicely and looks as if there are no dips between 3 deckbeams each when I lay a straightedge on top I hope this will do good enough.

[Dody]

I woke up at 4 o'clock this the morning with an idea: what if I make a plywood-pattern for each of the deckbeams? I could then attach them with woodclamps to each beam, adjust their height as needed, and when I've found the right constellation I can just start working on each one, be it laminating another layer on top, sanding it down, sanding in places or whatever. So, this morning I started with the patterns. I've made pictures, but I'm not gonna show you yet - just in case I didn't get it right with the system I worked out how to do it, and I wouldn't like others to accidentally make the same mistakes. That is if it turns out that it doesn't work like this!
But I can tell you what: for me it's awesome, it feels like doing some real boatbuilding stuff !

[cstevens]

I woke up at 4 o'clock this the morning with an idea: what if I make a plywood-pattern for each of the deckbeams? I could then attach them with woodclamps to each beam, adjust their height as needed, and when I've found the right constellation I can just start working on each one, be it laminating another layer on top, sanding it down, sanding in places or whatever. So, this morning I started with the patterns. I've made pictures, but I'm not gonna show you yet - just in case I didn't get it right with the system I worked out how to do it, and I wouldn't like others to accidentally make the same mistakes. That is if it turns out that it doesn't work like this!
But I can tell you what: for me it's awesome, it feels like doing some real boatbuilding stuff !

I like it Dody. Seems like a good plan to me. Looking forward to photos!

[Dody]

Sorry, there is a delay! The first bad weather of the season is forecast starting on Thursday, every weather-model has a completely different interpretation going from 30 knots to over 100 knots, huge amounts of rain, little rain, 14 m waves, 3 m waves, and the low keeps actually moving in weird directions somewhere out on the Atlantic Ocean. Better safe than sorry, I don't want to get too much water in if it happens, and I wouldn't like to have my cover damaged. A scheduled visit to the doctor nearly took all morning, my car needed the garage, shopping, lunch at 3 o'clock, so there wasn't too much time left today to get anything sorted. We have our usual fog and winds here, fog mainly in the mornings till midday sometimes, wind picking up around midday and dying down later in the evening, but this is the first rain we'll be seeing since March.

Priorities now are:

1. get the extension of my tent working in a way that it won't have too much movement with strongish winds, and so that water can run off nicely without ending up in puddles somewhere
2. check and replace the lines holding my main-cover in place
3. re-charge the tiny battery I kept at hand, wire up the bilgepump in the engine-room, discharge through one of the holes where my seacocks/skinfittings were mounted (this is for the water that ends up in my cockpit coz the canvas-drain between tent and extention I invented doesn't work to perfection with movement caused by wind or when it's just too much)

I've started with the extension this afternoon and was really happy that even the zips are still working. But, however, I'd like to sort all this out before I get on with the patterns. 3 of them are completely drawn up already, the 4th one started but not finished, looking pretty good but I haven't cut them out yet!

[MADOC1]

sounds like progress. i am glad you are getting going as it has been a bit since your "helper" messed you up. hope your new design works out. oh, and how is your shoulder these days? wasn't that the start of all this long beam struggle?

jim

[MN Dave]

14m waves? You do get some surf there https://amazing.zone/surfer-garrett-...ve-ever-surfed
At least the weather doesn't look that bad right now. https://www.wunderground.com/forecas...=localwx_10day

[Dody]

Thank you jim! And yes, the last weeks were a bit like chewing-gum or stuck in the mud. Wherever I looked, whatever I touched just shouted towards other problems which were there but I hadn't noticed them before. Wasn't a lot of joy to sort things out I wouldn't have had to do if ... Funny enough, from the moment I stopped working with him, my French neighbor employed him on and off (actually already since about 2 years). My neighbor is someone very quiet, very soft, always friendly, would rather burst into tears than doing something actively, but today even he lost his patience and the helper disappeared. He was so disgusted and upset that he asked me if I think he would be capable to finish his boat on his own. Of course, I said, why shouldn't you? He came here in 2013 with his 17 m steel-ketch and all this time he had whole work-gangs working on her (welding the hull back together, new deck, sandblasting, painting and getting the interior back in ...).

And thanks for asking, shoulder and neck are back in action and hardly cause me any trouble - knock on wood !!!

Battery was alright, but I had to alter my tent-extension to allow for the stay of the crane (s-steel cable) to keep it's place and made an opening on the side with 2 zips to make life easier for me while the extension is in place. By the time I had it all back up again it was dark, so the bilge-pump is not rigged up yet and the lines not replaced. I don't think it will be a problem for tonight, as there is only very little rain or wind in the forecast right now. So, tomorrow it's rig up the bilgepump, optimize the setup with the tent-extension and replace some of the lines. Hope there is still some rain tomorrow morning so I can see how good/bad the water is running off and where and which adjustments are needed. As it is now I've got the room to work under my construction aft, which is very nice. Mind you, not with big sheets of ply of course!

[Dody]

14m waves? You do get some surf there https://amazing.zone/surfer-garrett-...ve-ever-surfed
At least the weather doesn't look that bad right now. https://www.wunderground.com/forecas...=localwx_10day

Yes Dave, we do, and sometimes a lot bigger even. The latest world-record (which still has to be confirmed) was a wave surfed by Hugo Vau on the 19th of January 2018 and is claimed to be 35 m or 115 ft. All this only happens on the North Beach caused by waves being reflected by the Nazare-Canyon, and is really impressive. When the surf is up, I sometimes take whole days off to watch, it's awesome, really!!!

With the forecast at the moment, all looks pretty calm. There's an Error going on on the website you sent for the 10-day forecast of Nazare, so I might not have the same infos as you. I'm checking windguru https://www.windguru.cz/75856 and the grib-files twice a day at least. There is Hurricane Leslie heading for the Portuguese coast. Originally they were predicting it to hit more or less a bit north of Cabo Sao Vicente (which is a bit south of here) on Sunday. Then it was doing weird things. Right now it's supposed to stay off-shore for the moment and team up with Michael when he's bouncing off the US coast and heading east. The only observations I can talk of is that the stars are all blinking like mad, the atmosphere is kind of stagnant and warmish, mildish, humid, a few gusts jump down from the higher atmosphere from time to time and all the animals around here are super-jumpy. Maybe I should get my barograph from the workshop and wind it up just for fun. Well, who knows what's gonna happen? At least, some of the big-wave guys have already arrived and some are on their way to here.

I'll keep watching the developments. And if I have the impression there is something not mentioned in the forecasts I'll just batten down the hatches, which means get all my stuff off the deck.

[Dody]

Right, all the animals have calmed down, so I guess it was just the excitement over seeing some rain after so many months.

No news about Leslie, only that Michael seems to move slower so another low-pressure system is meant to do what was expected of him:

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I was quite pleased about only little water coming in tonight. That's how I found things:

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It wasn't the last rain for this autumn, so now that I'm at it I'll just sort out what needs doing.

[Dody]

Got the bilgepump in place, not enough water for her to take out this time

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switch:

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this water gets into the cockpit from the joint between my tent and the extension, and finds it's way into the engine-room through some plugs I didn't seal very well

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Even if the plugs would seal perfectly alright, the water from the joint would come into the engine-room through here

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opposite identical, this is where my steering-post was sitting. Not sure if it's worth bothering about it. Only difference would be that water wouldn't drip on the planks further aft.

[Dody]

Tent-extension. I didn't want to bother too much with something that's already past it's lifespan, but I still had this cheap endless zip laying around and was scared I might accidentally use it for something valueable. And I wanted to have a comfortable means of getting in or out without having to dismantle the whole lot all the time and thus helping rain to get in. I had built the extensions quite a while ago with 3 panels, connected to each other by zips and lashed to the last frame of my tent with lines.

The panel close to the centre needed a slit for the stainless cable supporting my crane

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and the starboard-panel needed 2 zips for getting in and out

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I hadn't done it for a while, and of course I forgot that this kind of sewing them in is of course very nice to keep the water out, but is no use if adding a zip into an existing panel where the zip doesn't go all the way through

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[Dody]

Which means this happens on the top:

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as I said before, the panels are long past their life-span anyway, so it does not matter at all. The second zip I installed the way I should have done with the first one

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I'll chuck some lines through the eyelets so I can roll it up completely and hold it in place, or I can close it to further down and roll it up a tiny bit so Max and Yoshi have a chance for safety if the doggies feel like chasing them.

With the patterns for the deckbeams just a quick glance how far I got - will get on and send the pictures when I've done with water-tightening and the concrete has dried again

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[Dody]

The forecast changed again slightly, doesn't look too bad in the grib-files (midnight Saturday to Sunday)

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Windguru with the WRF-model neither, but the ICON-model with 104 knots at midnight, well, I don't like it!

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Who knows ... meanwhile I got nearly all the loose stuff off the deck

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[Dody]

And I tightened everything aft as good as possible with lines

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What I still need to do tomorrow is replace the lines forward which hold the tent in place, and, maybe, take the vaccum-cleaner and all the boxes to the workshop or inside. I've also asked Alec to possibly bring 2 of his huge concrete-weights over to Tonga with the forklifttruck, so I can attach them with steel-cables to my chainplates amidships to make sure she's not getting blown over. I'll think about this again tomorrow. Tonga is not that exposed where she sits, there are 3 more boats on my starboard side (where the wind is forecast to be coming from), and what does it help if they get blown over? However, it would be nice if my plastic covers wouldn't be shredded to pieces as there is also quite some rain forecast.

[cstevens]

104kts!? I hope that's an outlying forecast and actual conditions come nowhere near that Dody. Even the 56+kt forecast could be rough. But either way I'm hoping for the best for you and Tonga out there.

[MN Dave]

I looked at the spaghetti models yesterday and it was clear that Leslie would go somewhere, pretty much anywhere. At the moment, it looks like it will go south of you with winds down to 50 kt by the time it makes landfall. One source called it the zombie hurricane because it was lurching around aimlessly. As soon as Leslie passes Gibraltar, Michael might drop some more rain on you as it passes to your north.
https://www.cyclocane.com/leslie-storm-tracker/

[Dody]

104kts!? I hope that's an outlying forecast and actual conditions come nowhere near that Dody. Even the 56+kt forecast could be rough. But either way I'm hoping for the best for you and Tonga out there.

Thank you Chris!!!

[Dody]

I looked at the spaghetti models yesterday and it was clear that Leslie would go somewhere, pretty much anywhere. At the moment, it looks like it will go south of you with winds down to 50 kt by the time it makes landfall. One source called it the zombie hurricane because it was lurching around aimlessly. As soon as Leslie passes Gibraltar, Michael might drop some more rain on you as it passes to your north.
https://www.cyclocane.com/leslie-storm-tracker/

Awesome that they called it "Zombie Hurricane" ! But really, this Leslie has been doing very weird things the last days I've been watching it. A hurricane in itself is always bad news, but a hurricane that's completely unpredictable with everything and on top of that heading your way feels a bit strange I must say. But I guess, once Leslie is reaching more coldish waters she'll automatically loose some force. Unless hurricanes like Leslie can't even be affected or bothered by that.

Whatever happens, I thought I might better get myself tuned into the noise again. I don't know how this is with anybody else. For me now, after at least 3/4 of a year without any strongish winds, I always find the first few hours when it hits me pretty impressive. It's like, well, till many years ago I was doing rock-climbing. Every year at the beginning of the season I was struggling to go near the end of a cliff-face dropping down 200 or more meters. One or two climbs later I would happily sit on the edge, dangle my legs and enjoy the scenery around. Sooo, I watched a Youtube-video about the 1979 Fastnet-Race disaster and the 1998 Sidney-Hobart. The noise of the wind was not in it, but everything else and a lot of memories came back. Even if it will be too loud tomorrow night to listen to music it'll be alright. Actually, there was this cruisers-race to Tonga which went a bit wrong, I think in 94 or so. I've read the book ages ago. Was there ever a documentary made about it? I checked on youtube, but couldn't find anything. One of the boats was called Destiny, and there was a Catamaran with a family which broke apart and the mother was in some kind of a spiritual outer world which didn't really help the situation.

[Boatsbgood]

Hi Dody:
Wishing you good luck in the coming event! I think the event/storm you're remembering was the Queen's Birthday Storm, was quite brutal. I seem to recall it was more cruisers in company than a race? Don't know if a movie came of it, but a book for sure, I have it but cant find it in the mayhem of my office ; )
Its no fun being in front of a hurricane, worse when its less predictable than usual.
Brian

[MN Dave]

I linked to an image that changes. When I said it would hit Gibraltar, I think that landfall was looking like somewhere down there in Spain. I did take a screenshot of the spaghetti map on Thursday:Capture.JPG

This link shows Arrival Time of Tropical-Storm-Force Winds, and will probably not be available in a few days https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/gra...toa34#contents
Capture2.jpgscreen shot

This is a screen shot of the current NOAA map that will not change:
Capture1.jpg

This shows an image of Leslie in a position closer to the image I saw when I linked it 8 hours ago:
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Edit: Looks like Leslie hit pretty hard. https://www.ad.nl/buitenland/orkaan-...anje~af49b6fc/

According to local media, the damage is high, especially in the city of Figueira da Foz, two hundred kilometers north of Lisbon. Here the storm came ashore and gusts of wind were measured of 176 kilometers per hour.

Figueira da Foz is about 40 miles North of Nazaré Capture.JPG

[Dody]

Just a quick update as I can't get Internet on the yard to work: all went pretty well, much better than expected. I couldn't find out yet to confirm, but I had the impression the eye went straight over us. Winds started pretty late from the southern sectors, which lasted for maybe 2 hours (one really brutal gust that just didn't seem to end), then completely quiet and no wind at all for maybe 30 minutes. After that it must have gone to the NW (where I'm well protected by a building) so I could only hear the wind screaming but it wouldn't really touch us. About an hour later it seems to have turned to NNW where I did get quite some protection from the boats next to me. That was the moment that one of the zips of my tent extension started to open itself, and the panels threatening to bash the plastic aft to pieces. So I had to get out and fix it. Around 4 am the wind had lost it's violence and I went to sleep.

My preparations worked this time, everything held, but I should work out a better system for aft as this was bashed around by the wind quite violently and I don't know how much longer it would have been capable to withstand it. One thing is sure: I've never been so comfortable in heavy winds since I started with the deck!

That's how she looked like when I had it all set up and a pic of the Baro





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[Dody]

Got the internet working again!!!

Thanks Brian, yes, I remember now, and another boat comes to mind "Thursdays Child". I had a look at youtube, and could find a photo-sequence of a freighter attempting to rescue the crew of a catamaran during the same storm, which was quite impressive, but I couldn't find a documentary or something. And you know what? It's funny how soon these things get lost with younger generations. Saturday morning I initiated all us liveaboards to exchange phone-numbers in case things should go pearshape so we can help each other. Now, on the other side on the yard is a youngish guy boatsitting for the granddad of his best friend. He started sailing not long ago, got himself into making already his second license and is really hooked on, but hasn't got a lot of experience yet. In between he got a bit of a scare when things were a little rough, so the 2 of us were sending whatsapp-messages back and forth. He's never even heard of the 1979 Fastnet-Race or the 1998 Sydney-Hobart, nor of the Hiscocks, Moitessier or all the others. The subjects in books about circumnavigations and sailing have changed a lot in recent years. And, living in a port which is frequented regularly by sailors on their way to their first longish trip, I do have the impression that the ideas behind the sailing-off also start to have a completely different meaning nowadays. The ones who just do it for fun and enjoying life are getting less and less frequent. Maybe just a coincidence.

Thank you heaps Dave for all your research, this is awesome! I found out in the meantime that they claim the eye of the storm went over Figueira da Foz, 33 Miles north of here. I haven't got a clue what the diameter of the center actually was, the only thing I am absolutely certain about is that I had around 30 minutes of dead calm (if not more) and then the winds came back screaming from NW. According to all I've ever learned about Hurricanes this is exactly what happens in the eye. My neighbor came over this afternoon for a chat, and he was convinced of the same thing. It does not matter at all. If they want it to be in Figueira da Foz, it's fine with me !

[Boatsbgood]

So happy to hear you had no real damage, thats great! I've been (trying to?) teach for a long time (28 yrs), in an undergraduate 4 year university program, and my task has been to try and get young, inexperienced would-be scientists to take the dangers and challenge of the ocean seriously, and its no easy task, and as you point out, things have changed a great deal, due in part to technology. A person brought up with screen-knowlege has, in many cases, no idea of what the reality of a disinterested ocean is like, and its not easy to bring that to their attention. In your case you know from direct experience what the ocean can bring, which means you suffer more when something comes your way. Hoping that the rest of the cyclone season leaves you safe!
Brian

[cstevens]

Glad you made it through Leslie ok Dody!